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Sphinx posted:I've seen a lot of people say that ADWD had no editing. I don't know much about editing other than correcting grammatical errors, so I was wondering what could have used editing in ADWD. I saw that post about his editor trying to reduce the amount of "words are wind" and having no luck, which was funny. Is that part of the problem? Too much repitition? Its been a couple of years since I've read ADWD but I don't remember not enjoying it. I feel like FFC and ADWD had similar problems, in that each POV had a catchphrase that they repeated over and over and over and over again. And then Words are Wind found its way into every story.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:58
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visceril posted:My original point was that the plot isn't what matters most. He can use magic or whatever to make it fit satisfying character development. Only dumbass reddit spergs care more about a "realistic" wrap-up for the Thenns than what happens to make Jon into a man GURM is the sperg lord, though. He wants the poo poo to be exactly right, or just freezes and takes forever to get it done. His explanation of the Mereenese Knot makes this pretty clear. It took him years to figure out how Dany, Quentin, Victarion, Barristan, Tyrion and Jorah all ended up in the right place at the right time. Most of us could write an outline of the Mereenese Knot in an hour. That's basically nothing compared to the clusterfuck that the endgame is going to create.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:02
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Max posted:I feel like FFC and ADWD had similar problems, in that each POV had a catchphrase that they repeated over and over and over and over again. And then Words are Wind found its way into every story. It's that, and cutting out unnecessary bulk, like all the food porn and A MAID OF THEEE AND TEN
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Jun 11, 2014 21:10
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Sphinx posted:I've seen a lot of people say that ADWD had no editing. I don't know much about editing other than correcting grammatical errors, so I was wondering what could have used editing in ADWD. I saw that post about his editor trying to reduce the amount of "words are wind" and having no luck, which was funny. Is that part of the problem? Too much repitition? Its been a couple of years since I've read ADWD but I don't remember not enjoying it. If it were just 'words are wind' it would be a thematic choice, and cool that people all over the world seem to come back to this theme. It's not just that, its nipples on a breastplate, much and more, little and less, must needs, leal, jape, dark wings, dark words. Then, you have each of the characters with their ongoing mantras - ...and moon boy for all we know, where do whores go, if I look back I am lost, I am only a young and inexperienced girl, this knife is my suckling babe, you have to remember your name. Repetition works well, and I don't mind it at all. Its an amazing part of the Reek chapters. At a certain point, having the majority of your POV characters having a catchphrase gets old.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:17
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After being reminded that the food porn was shoe-horned into Oberyns death chapter via vomit, I think they should be allowed to stay.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:17
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Sphinx posted:I've seen a lot of people say that ADWD had no editing. I don't know much about editing other than correcting grammatical errors, so I was wondering what could have used editing in ADWD. I saw that post about his editor trying to reduce the amount of "words are wind" and having no luck, which was funny. Is that part of the problem? Too much repitition? Its been a couple of years since I've read ADWD but I don't remember not enjoying it. Martin wrote on his blog that Anne Groell tried to remove more than just "words are wind". She attempted to convince him to remove the archaic bullshittery: the stylistic choices he made that turned ADWD into Renfaire cosplay. I wonder how many other things his editor tried to change, but time concerns or Martin's ego got in the way. Hell, he could've dumped entire chapters like The Windblown and I don't think the book suffers for it. I've also seen people complain about typos and such, but I never really noticed any.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:21
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Sphinx posted:I've seen a lot of people say that ADWD had no editing. I don't know much about editing other than correcting grammatical errors, so I was wondering what could have used editing in ADWD. I saw that post about his editor trying to reduce the amount of "words are wind" and having no luck, which was funny. Is that part of the problem? Too much repitition? Its been a couple of years since I've read ADWD but I don't remember not enjoying it. He wrote a a bunch of long, meandering stories that led to logical climaxes, and then cut the story off before getting to those climaxes and published the book. There was all sorts of "filler" type stuff like tyrion and penny, "yet another scene of people on a boat going to meeereen", the whole quentyn arc, etc, which he could have used to finish the stories he began telling. Combine that with knowledge that there won't be any more books afterward, and bam, disappointment.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:33
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Sphinx posted:I've seen a lot of people say that ADWD had no editing. I don't know much about editing other than correcting grammatical errors, so I was wondering what could have used editing in ADWD. I saw that post about his editor trying to reduce the amount of "words are wind" and having no luck, which was funny. Is that part of the problem? Too much repitition? Its been a couple of years since I've read ADWD but I don't remember not enjoying it. Grammatical errors, fact checking and the like all fall under copy editing, which does absolutely gently caress all to the substance of the book or the story. A capital 'e' Editor will do things like ask that asides be cut for length, or material be added to better explain the author's intent/clarify things. Generally with a big project there will be back and forth between the two for weeks or months and multiple re-writes but once you've got a prize pig like GRRM all of that seems to go out the window.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:41
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Jeffrey posted:the whole quentyn arc, etc This is the one that especially bothers me. The entire arc is just utterly pointless. Unless it becomes really super relevant later on (which I doubt) then it should have been cut. If it's a story he really felt he needed to tell it wouldn't have taken too much work to release it as a short (heh) story or flesh it out into a full novel AFTER YOU'VE FINISHED THE GOD drat SERIES GRRM YOU FAT, LAZY CROTCH RAG..
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Jun 11, 2014 21:48
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Headhunter posted:This is the one that especially bothers me. The entire arc is just utterly pointless. Unless it becomes really super relevant later on (which I doubt) then it should have been cut. If it's a story he really felt he needed to tell it wouldn't have taken too much work to release it as a short (heh) story or flesh it out into a full novel AFTER YOU'VE FINISHED THE GOD drat SERIES GRRM YOU FAT, LAZY CROTCH RAG.. I think Quentyn's story will be relevant and will probably lead to Dorne siding with Aegon and opposing Dany, but I don't know what having Quentyn's point of view added. Frankly I'd rather have read about the daily life of the shavepate.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:50
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Sphinx posted:I've seen a lot of people say that ADWD had no editing. I don't know much about editing other than correcting grammatical errors, so I was wondering what could have used editing in ADWD. I saw that post about his editor trying to reduce the amount of "words are wind" and having no luck, which was funny. Is that part of the problem? Too much repitition? Its been a couple of years since I've read ADWD but I don't remember not enjoying it. There are different sorts of editing, some editors (copy editors I think is the correct term) are mostly just supposed to "correct" what the author writes, but they do more than just correct grammatical errors. They also watch for other errors/mistakes, like continuity. Here's an interesting interview with a copy editor: http://www.themillions.com/2014/02/style-sheet-a-conversation-with-my-copyeditor.html quote:TM: What are your favorite errors to fix? I think there are (supposed to be) other editors involved too though, who have more input on the book itself (trying to make sure the publisher gets the product they want), but I don't really know much about it.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:51
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Apoffys posted:There are different sorts of editing, some editors (copy editors I think is the correct term) are mostly just supposed to "correct" what the author writes, but they do more than just correct grammatical errors. They also watch for other errors/mistakes, like continuity. Here's an interesting interview with a copy editor: George has a dedicated racist couple on board to edit his books for story continuity, and I'm sure he gets the usual copyediting. What his primary editor failed to do in books 4 and 5 was to keep the story on track. The massive style change may have been intentional, but there are so many places where two character chapters could be merged together and you wouldn't notice. Game of Thrones had tight chapters, each with their own mini story that built up and intersected. Dance sometimes has chapters with no clear direction at all. Some things happened, next. I think the more interesting stories in the books (Cersei, Davos spring to mind) succeed because they keep that earlier pattern. Each chapter has something to do, and advances something.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:01
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Headhunter posted:This is the one that especially bothers me. The entire arc is just utterly pointless. Unless it becomes really super relevant later on (which I doubt) then it should have been cut. If it's a story he really felt he needed to tell it wouldn't have taken too much work to release it as a short (heh) story or flesh it out into a full novel AFTER YOU'VE FINISHED THE GOD drat SERIES GRRM YOU FAT, LAZY CROTCH RAG.. It's more relevant than Oberyn's arc.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:02
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computer parts posted:It's more relevant than Oberyn's arc. but now we have Bob Strong, Esq.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:05
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computer parts posted:It's more relevant than Oberyn's arc. Oberyn at least teaches the reader what Dorne is, a little of their history, and how they fit into the bigger picture, which is expounded on in the Dorne chapters in Feast. If Oberyn's arc and the other Dorne stuff didn't exist, then yes, it might have had the same role, but it didn't. It's possible that it was written when he planned on it all being one book, and didn't want to scrap it even when it became clear that it wasn't all that relevant.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:06
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Also Oberyn is awesome while Quentyn has the charisma of a frog Do you think Ser Frog was a reference to Chronotrigger?
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Jun 11, 2014 22:18
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visceril posted:Also Oberyn is awesome while Quentyn has the charisma of a frog Yeah that kind of went without saying.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:22
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rypakal posted:George has a dedicated racist couple on board to edit his books for story continuity... They are also bad at math: Then there was the Girl General, who rode about on a white horse with a red mane and commanded a hundred strapping slave soldiers that she had bred and trained herself, all of them young, lean rippling with muscle, and naked but for breechclouts, yellow cloaks, and long bronze shields with erotic inlays. Their mistress could not have been more than sixteen and fancied herself Yunkai's own Daenerys Targaryen.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:34
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The worst thing about Quentyn's chapters are how they retroactively make Feast's Dorne chapters poo poo. Even people who hated Feast always said ".....but Doran's 'fire and blood' speech was pretty cool I guess, I'm looking forward to what happens with that.....". And what happened with that was Quentyn loving Martell.
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Jun 11, 2014 23:30
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AtAt-de-fay posted:They are also bad at math: I don't get how this is bad mathematics?
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Jun 12, 2014 00:02
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BBQuentyn, you mean.
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Jun 12, 2014 00:02
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Lord Twisted posted:I don't get how this is bad mathematics? Bred and trained herself. She's sixteen. Does not compute.
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Jun 12, 2014 00:03
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rejutka posted:Bred and trained herself. She's sixteen. Does not compute. There's too many battle hardened sixteen year olds in these books.
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Jun 12, 2014 00:07
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rejutka posted:Bred and trained herself. She's sixteen. Does not compute. Oh she bred them all right.
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Jun 12, 2014 00:08
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I have a bad feeling Dany is going to explode the Iron Bank of Braavos on her way out and gently caress Stannis over in the process.
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Jun 12, 2014 00:09
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Jeffrey posted:didn't want to scrap it even when it became clear that it wasn't all that relevant. Gurm? Keep irrelevant parts in his books? Nooo..
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Jun 12, 2014 00:12
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I think that Gurm wants more seasons of Game of Thrones. Says there is plenty of material. I guess we could use 50 minutes of lemoncake action
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Jun 12, 2014 01:03
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Ten thousand of your lemoncakes perished in my palm, Your Grace. Whilst you snored, I would lick your sugar off my face and fingers one by one, all pale sticky frosting. You claimed your cakes, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your portion.
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Jun 12, 2014 01:26
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DangerZoneDelux posted:I think that Gurm wants more seasons of Game of Thrones. Says there is plenty of material. I guess we could use 50 minutes of lemoncake action Preferable to killing the momentum permanently with showing AFFC.
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Jun 12, 2014 01:58
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Season Three Trip Report The wedding wasn't as badass as I was hoping. I feel, honestly, kind of let down. Michelle Fairley did a good job, though, and I quite liked Roose's significant glances to Cat as Rains of Castamere played and she got more and more perturbed. He seemed kind of, I don't know, maybe sorry? that she was getting caught up in it. Grey Robb  The Theon torture sequences felt appropriately paced. As the horror mounted, there were less and less scenes of it, which I think kept it from becoming dull or too much, as I know a lot of babbies complained about. Why did they end the season on Dany and not that awesome Stannis/Davos scene? I grow increasingly tired of Big Weepy Eyes hijacking so much thunder, and this was a prime example. Swap the two scenes around and you have Dany's triumph tempered by the reality that none of it matters because there's ice zombies and the Mannis is rising once more. In all, it feels like the Star Wars prequels; the first third of the season was entirely disposable, the middle third was decent if pained here and there, but all the good stuff was at the end.
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Jun 12, 2014 03:00
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The end scenes of seasons alternate fire and ice - There Be Dragons, There Be White Walkers, MHYSA! and presumable Vanilla Ice this Sunday.
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Jun 12, 2014 03:08
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Why did they end the season on Dany and not that awesome Stannis/Davos scene? I grow increasingly tired of Big Weepy Eyes hijacking so much thunder, and this was a prime example. Swap the two scenes around and you have Dany's triumph tempered by the reality that none of it matters because there's ice zombies and the Mannis is rising once more. Show watchers really like Dany. I guess the obvious reason why is that they haven't read the books. Lot of kids out there name of Kelly C. now.
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Jun 12, 2014 03:12
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It's hilarious seeing the show watchers become increasingly disillusioned with Kelly C. Their angst will soon be not unlike our own.
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Jun 12, 2014 04:06
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syscall girl posted:Show watchers really like Dany. I guess the obvious reason why is that they haven't read the books. It's because show watchers think, "ohhhh, Daenerys Stormborn is gonna gently caress up the realm with her dragons!" ...book readers know better 
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Jun 12, 2014 04:06
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the only thing dany fucks up is the pacing and story structure
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Jun 12, 2014 04:59
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Quentyn is another sign of GRRM's main problem: he's overstimulated and probably often feels the need to take all sorts of classic fantasy trappings and 'play them straight'. In a typical story, Quentyn would be the ugly duckling who became a swan, or discovered he had some talent elsewhere despite being so average, or would win Dany or a substitute because of a good character and development and some luck (good writing), or because he was 'special inside'/because the plot wanted him to (bad writing). Basically, he'd succeed despite being average, or in spite of his averageness. But GRMM has probably seen and read thousands of stories with that kind of setup, so the GRRM goes off and goes 'Okay, what if I took this concept and DIDN'T hand him any special favors because of the plot/what people expect to see'? End result: a barely noticeable guy who accomplishes nothing, and by being unable to accept his averageness, gets horribly killed. No girl sees him for how he's 'special inside', he doesn't find some amazing talent he always had that wows Dany, he doesn't play some important role in the background. He literally does nothing but waste the reader's time. This is all well and good if you want to study GRRM's work in a school setting, but in terms of entertainment it's a waste of time (barring something in the final two books that makes it not so). It's the classic error in logic 1) I read a ton of books, so much that I know what's going to happen, ergo I know books well and what makes a good book. 2) I'm tired of reading the same thing, so I'll just do something different 3) Ergo, because I know so much, my different thing will automatically have entertainment value. Really, every problem in the main GOT series can be traced back to Martin insisting on doing things 'differently'. The food porn and the other gross, creepy, and misogynistic junk, for the most part, doesn't negatively effect the plot (speaking in a vacuum, that is) save for slowing the pace. Cornwind Evil fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 05:30
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Cornwind Evil posted:Quentyn is another sign of GRRM's main problem: he's overstimulated and probably often feels the need to take all sorts of classic fantasy trappings and 'play them straight'. In a typical story, Quentyn would be the ugly duckling who became a swan, or discovered he had some talent elsewhere despite being so average, or would win Dany or a substitute because of a good character and development and some luck (good writing), or because he was 'special inside'/because the plot wanted him to (bad writing). Basically, he'd succeed despite being average, or in spite of his averageness. But GRMM has probably seen and read thousands of stories with that kind of setup, so the GRRM goes off and goes 'Okay, what if I took this concept and DIDN'T hand him any special favors because of the plot/what people expect to see'? I appreciate how erudite the GRRM is on this subject. It's fascinating just how clever he was in introducing an ugly pathetic loser and having him turned into a screaming charcoal briquette but we have all that sort of thing going on with average schmoes and highborn tools across Neverneveros. Maybe I'm just grumpy because I hoped all of that prose would have led up to something better than George the Trope Slayer.
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Jun 12, 2014 05:50
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No matter how well written or not it is, any character in any book who was written with the intention of being waste of time and pointless will always be a waste of time and pointless. Instead of that, we could have had one of the actual climactic battles in the novel which wouldn't have been pointless.
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Jun 12, 2014 06:33
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Literally everyone ever is a waste of time and ultimately pointless. What's interesting is what they do and how they effect others along the way.
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Jun 12, 2014 06:46
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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rejutka posted:Bred and trained herself. She's sixteen. Does not compute. Oh yeah, my bad. Words are wind.
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Jun 12, 2014 06:56
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