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Bigass Moth posted:A couple questions: 'Rightful' king is somewhat meaningless. Tommen is the rightful king because he is held to be the legal heir of Robert Baratheon, and the claims of incest and bastardy are just claims. Stannis is the rightful king because he is Robert's rightful heir because those blonde haired incest babies aren't Robert's (if only he could prove it). Daenerys is the rightful queen because she is the sole remaining heir of the Targaryen line, currently in exile because of the usurper Robert Baratheon (she'll definitely go get it bad someday, probably). Rightful king doesn't mean much. Of those 3, Tommen is both actually on the Throne, and the least homicidal, which means he is 100% hosed. Dany is descended from the much older rulling line, but then, those guys came to Westeros and installed themselves as foreign weirdo incest kings, which makes it pretty legit for someone else to do the same thing. The Wall was meant to be anti-white-walker, but the guys who built it left a bunch of people on the other side who got understandably annoyed that some guy came into their territory and plopped down the largest structure ever seen. In the ensuing millennia, the whitewalkers faded from memory, but the wildlings did not. Roland Jones posted:Oh dang, while this will definitely not happen, the bit about Myrcella just made me realize that, since Myrcella's definitely not married to Doran's son matrilineally, if she were to end up on the Throne and live long enough to have kids, the Martells would be the ruling family of Westeros, seeing as her children would be Martells. I don't think that would be undercutting the Lannisters. The kids are all Baratheons anyway; there's no way for a Lannister to sit on the throne. Offering her in marriage to Dorne was a powerful tool precisely because it ties them to the throne in a very direct way that both Tyrion and Tywin are likely aware of. It also happens to tie them to the Lannisters in a way that makes taking revenge more awkward. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 16:33
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Thanks for the answers guys. Do we know what the white walkers' are trying to do or is it still a mystery? I just found out Tommen is portrayed by a new actor this season which explains why I thought he was an entirely new character.
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Jun 12, 2014 16:36
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So if Tommen were to die would the King's Landing crew just give up the throne to Stannis, as at that point there wouldn't really be any question that he has the rightful claim to it? I wonder if claim is important enough at this point that they would wave the white flag and let a guy who had tried to invade at one point take over without any fuss.
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Jun 12, 2014 16:42
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PantsBandit posted:So if Tommen were to die would the King's Landing crew just give up the throne to Stannis, as at that point there wouldn't really be any question that he has the rightful claim to it? I wonder if claim is important enough at this point that they would wave the white flag and let a guy who had tried to invade at one point take over without any fuss. If it's a male-only position, yeah, it'd be Stannis no question. I doubt some people would be happy about it but unless they find some mystery child of Robert under a rock that nobody has heard of, it's him. And technically he didn't try to invade, he was trying to force his claim. If a female can sit on the Iron Throne then you've got Myrcella sitting it out in Dorne who'd come before Stannis.
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Jun 12, 2014 16:46
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Bobo the Red posted:I don't think that would be undercutting the Lannisters. The kids are all Baratheons anyway; there's no way for a Lannister to sit on the throne. Offering her in marriage to Dorne was a powerful tool precisely because it ties them to the throne in a very direct way that both Tyrion and Tywin are likely aware of. It also happens to tie them to the Lannisters in a way that makes taking revenge more awkward. I meant more in that it would completely remove the Lannisters from the Throne, since even if they don't have it in name it's basically theirs and everyone knows it. While Myrcella's children would be, well, her children, their name would be Martell. Additionally, if someone decided to go and kill all of her children, the Throne would then go to... Trystane Martell, her husband and their father. Killing him would send it to another Martell. There would be no (immediate, at least) ways to get the Martells off the Throne. Heck, your latter statement is exactly why it'd be better than a more forward/bloody form of revenge. It'd be subtler, less easily detected, and given to them by the Lannisters themselves.
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Jun 12, 2014 16:47
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Roland Jones posted:...if someone decided to go and kill all of her children, the Throne would then go to... Trystane Martell, her husband and their father. Killing him would send it to another Martell. There would be no (immediate, at least) ways to get the Martells off the Throne. Wouldn't it go back to Stannis if Myrcella and her (hypothetical children) were dead? The Martells don't get to rule because they married the queen, it's the Baratheon line that is royal.
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Jun 12, 2014 16:51
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End of Life Guy posted:Wouldn't it go back to Stannis if Myrcella and her (hypothetical children) were dead? The Martells don't get to rule because they married the queen, it's the Baratheon line that is royal. Hm, maybe. I guess it depends on how the inheritance laws work. Still, even if that part of what I'm saying is wrong, the Martells have a surprisingly easy way onto the Throne and a mass-assassination to take it from them would be difficult, I imagine.
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Jun 12, 2014 16:53
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monster on a stick posted:If it's a male-only position, yeah, it'd be Stannis no question. I doubt some people would be happy about it but unless they find some mystery child of Robert under a rock that nobody has heard of, it's him. And technically he didn't try to invade, he was trying to force his claim. The throne wouldn't pass to Stannis. It'd go to Myrcella. Really it should have went to Myrcella immediately after Joffreys death, but Westeros inheritance gives it to the male line first. Besides that you have some precedents set like that one Targaeryan psycho woman who ended up Queen for a bit before another Targaeryan fed her to his dragon. If Myrcella died then the throne would pass back to the Queen Reagent, Cersei. Cersei would then probably be snapped up into a marriage that established a new line on the throne. Basically Stannis will never become king because he already had a rightful succession behind Robert but was passed up in favor of Robert's children.
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Jun 12, 2014 16:59
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As long as the Iron Throne allows women rulers, Tommen dies, Myrcella is married and bears children, and the Martells keep those children alive, then yah, they're set. If the Throne doesn't allow women, then Stannis needs to die too, and Myrcella needs to have a son. The real question is, if the Irone Throne doesn't allow women, and Tommen and Stannis die, who on Earth (what's the Earth equivalent in aSoIaF?) becomes ruler?
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Jun 12, 2014 17:00
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End of Life Guy posted:The real question is, if the Irone Throne doesn't allow women, and Tommen and Stannis die, who on Earth (what's the Earth equivalent in aSoIaF?) becomes ruler? The short answer is it does allow women and Myrcella would inherit it while the even shorter answer is whoever has the most swords.
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Jun 12, 2014 17:02
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Roland Jones posted:Hm, maybe. I guess it depends on how the inheritance laws work. Still, even if that part of what I'm saying is wrong, the Martells have a surprisingly easy way onto the Throne and a mass-assassination to take it from them would be difficult, I imagine. Sure, but why do the Lannisters care if the throne ultimately goes to Tommen's half Lannister half Tyrell Baratheon children, or Myrcella's half Lannister half Dornish Martell children? The Lannisters have no beef with Dorne; it is definitely a one-sided thing, and Lannisters know their name is the only one that can't end up on the Iron Throne.
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Jun 12, 2014 17:05
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End of Life Guy posted:As long as the Iron Throne allows women rulers, Tommen dies, Myrcella is married and bears children, and the Martells keep those children alive, then yah, they're set. I'm more curious as to how hard the succession laws would be to change; I was reading the spoiler-free (well, only show spoilers) wiki people keep linking here, and apparently Dorne has absolute primogeniture succession; women inherit on the same terms as men there, they just have to be older. A Martell Iron Throne (or Daenerys taking it or something) could lead to some very interesting changes if they have the power to make such a decision. Would definitely further stabilize their hold on the Throne as well, since that's even more Martells to go through. Bobo the Red posted:Sure, but why do the Lannisters care if the throne ultimately goes to Tommen's half Lannister half Tyrell Baratheon children, or Myrcella's half Lannister half Dornish Martell children? The Lannisters have no beef with Dorne; it is definitely a one-sided thing, and Lannisters know their name is the only one that can't end up on the Iron Throne. Because at present the Throne is a Lannister one in practice, though not in name. The Martells taking it would change that, since they despise the Lannisters and also the Lannisters would have no power over them. The Tyrells are at least pretending to play nice, and since Magaery's children would still be Baratheons they can't make a coup attempt like what I described with the Martells and Myrcella. For at least a little while longer, the Lannisters have control over the Iron Throne. Also, assuming the Lannisters aren't already completely hosed by that point, the Martells would have the power to drive the final nails in their coffin; given what we know of them, they would definitely take that opportunity, too. Basically, in one move the Martells could simultaneously become the most powerful family in Westeros and take the last bit of power their hated enemy possesses. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 17:06
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PantsBandit posted:So if Tommen were to die would the King's Landing crew just give up the throne to Stannis, as at that point there wouldn't really be any question that he has the rightful claim to it? I wonder if claim is important enough at this point that they would wave the white flag and let a guy who had tried to invade at one point take over without any fuss. If Stannis's wife were to die too, I'm 99% sure that the Tyrells would say "Heeeey, Stannis, you wanna marry Margery?"
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Jun 12, 2014 17:08
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Roland Jones posted:Because at present the Throne is a Lannister one in practice, though not in name. The Martells taking it would change that, since they despise the Lannisters and also the Lannisters would have no power over them. The Tyrells are at least pretending to play nice, and since Magaery's children would still be Baratheons they can't make a coup attempt like what I described with the Martells and Myrcella. For at least a little while longer, the Lannisters have control over the Iron Throne. Also, assuming the Lannisters aren't already completely hosed by that point, the Martells would have the power to drive the final nails in their coffin; given what we know of them, they would definitely take that opportunity, too. The Lannisters are aware that their current control of the Iron Throne is going to last at the most another generation. The Martells aren't taking it. The Lannisters are giving it to them (partly because they didn't realize how much killing Elia pissed them off, true), and in order to capitalize, they also need to marry into the family they despise. The guy who marries Myrcella would also have to be strong enough to not only dissuade her from naming Tywin or another Lannister as Hand again, but also make sure her kids grow up hating her entire family. Sure, there are dudes who could dude that, but there are also a lot of dudes like Mace Tyrell. Why would some hypothetical Martell king want to hurt his mother's family because of some great aunt he never met dying 30 years before he was born? This is also all assuming everyone in Dorne is as angry about it as Oberyn was and slightly less stupid than he was. If Oberyn is anything to go by, that kind of long game is way beyond the Martells. Edit: Someone who marries a Queen and has her kids can not inherit the throne. Trystane Martell would have zero claim, just like Cersei has zero claim. The throne would go to the closest relative on the mother's side (would be hilarious if that somehow made Tyrion king, but it probably needs to be a Baratheon that she is not related to at all). Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 17:27
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Bobo the Red posted:The Lannisters are aware that their current control of the Iron Throne is going to last at the most another generation. The Martells aren't taking it. The Lannisters are giving it to them (partly because they didn't realize how much killing Elia pissed them off, true), and in order to capitalize, they also need to marry into the family they despise. Ok one last time so everyone understands. Myrcella is a political prisoner. She isn't going to marry a Martell, and if she is, all the other houses would cry foul at that. Myrcella is a prisoner just like Theon was to Ned Stark. A show of good faith from one house to another that they won't gently caress them over. In addition, Dorne does not want the Iron Throne in the way you think they do, but delving deeper than that is approaching spoiler territory. I will say that historically Dorne has been the hardest nation to conquer, even the Targaeryans with their dragons couldn't quite do it and when they did they only held Dorne for a little while. But, while they're hard to conquer, they rarely ever leave Dorne with armies in force. Dorne also gives the throne over to the first born, regardless of sex, and it gets handed down from there. If Dorne were ever to have a problem with the Lannisters and Tommen, they can point towards Myrcella and say, "According to our laws this girl should be the ruler, so everything you say is invalid." That's why Dorne has a bit more clout and the Lannisters know that ever since they sent Myrcella to them as a hostage. Now concerning lines of succession. In Westeros the line of succession used to be the various kings with their families until Aegon I arrived and conquered the Andals. The Targaeryans didnt have to worry about lines of succession because they never faced a time where there wasn't a first born male son. However, that all changed when Aegon the Unworthy (Different, fatter Aegon), named all his bastards as heirs right when he died. That launched a civil war in which two male heirs duked it out with the 'good' side winning. There are also cases, like I mentioned before, where women were in charge for a bit, and had a claim to the throne. That has set a precedent that yes, women can in fact rule the seven kingdoms. But since Robert's Rebellion, everything has been thrown into a loop. Robert rebelled and married a Lannister woman and thus named his rightful heir to be his sons. However, since Stannis figured out that Joffrey and Myrcella and Tommen are all products of incest and not of Robert's blood, then their claims to the throne are false and thus should be passed to the oldest Baratheon heir. Him. Since most of the realm believes the Baratheon children to be Baratheons, or at least believe it enough to not rebel against any of them when they come into rule, then the current ruling family has control of the Iron Throne, IE the Lannisters. Since Renley and Stannis were declared traitors to the realm, they will not inherit the throne unless they take it by force. The Lannisters control the throne through Tommen and if Tommen and Myrcella die, the reins would be handed back to Queen Cersei until she remarries and has more children. That is part of the reason why the Tyrells wanted to hook her up with Loras. Just in case. Hope that answered questions. Doltos fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 17:38
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Bigass Moth posted:Thanks for the answers guys. Do we know what the white walkers' are trying to do or is it still a mystery? I believe the implication is that the white walkers are otherworldly creatures with little to no care for the affairs of humans/other living creatures and would presumably wipe them out with barely an afterthought, but I'm not sure. quote:Myrcella is a political prisoner. She isn't going to marry a Martell, and if she is, all the other houses would cry foul at that. Myrcella is a prisoner just like Theon was to Ned Stark. A show of good faith from one house to another that they won't gently caress them over. Yes... just like Sansa surely wasn't going to marry Tyrion Lannister... I mean Myrcella *probably* won't marry a Martell, but come on. None of the other houses give a gently caress, not about some Lannister child. Maybe the Tyrells would pay lip service.
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Jun 12, 2014 17:40
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Keep in mind that Stannis is an attainted traitor. If the Lannister's are still the power behind the throne, it wouldn't matter if he is next in line.
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Jun 12, 2014 17:41
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an skeleton posted:Yes... just like Sansa surely wasn't going to marry Tyrion Lannister... Sansa is a completely different story than the present day Martell/Lannister rivalry. Sansa's father was declared a traitor and beheaded. Sansa's oldest brother was declared a traitor and eventually beheaded. Sansa's brothers are presumed to have been burnt alive by Theon, and Arya is also presumed missing and dead. Prior to all this happening, Sansa was already betrothed to Joffrey. This was declared by the king himself. That set a precedent. Now when Sansa's father is proven a traitor and Tywin/Cersei wished to get Joffrey a better political marriage, they had the High Septon annul the marriage. Instead of having a link to their claim on the North, they now had a useless girl hanging around. They couldn't straight up kill Sansa, so they graciously married her to another high ranking Lannister. Tyrion. To all the realm this is seen as a gracious move, and Sansa never really objects to it either. If the Martells were to marry Myrcella to another Martell, half the realm would be up in arms. They basically directly claimed the throne through a dubious marriage, which is way too high of a prize to claim that way. It would be the equivalent of the Starks capturing Joffrey and marrying him to Sansa. No one would stand for it.
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Jun 12, 2014 17:46
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Mister Fister posted:I'm confused about varys. He seems to support dany but then he's also the one who sent the assassin to kill her? Why oh why would he do that.
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Jun 12, 2014 17:46
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Doltos posted:Ok one last time so everyone understands. No, the plan was to marry Myrcella to the son of Doran. Like, that was Tyrion's whole thing; present three different marriage candidates to Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycell, and see which one Cersei comes to him to complain about. Sending her to be a hostage would make no sense at all; Theon wasn't a hostage because of goodwill, it was because the Greyjoys got crushed in a rebellion and the Starks took him. Seriously, rewatch the drat scene. I haven't even gotten to the rest of your post but if the first thing is wrong then that's not a good sign for the rest of it.
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Jun 12, 2014 17:51
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Roland Jones posted:No, the plan was to marry Myrcella to the son of Doran. Like, that was Tyrion's whole thing; present three different marriage candidates to Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycell, and see which one Cersei comes to him to complain about. Sending her to be a hostage would make no sense at all; Theon wasn't a hostage because of goodwill, it was because the Greyjoys got crushed in a rebellion and the Starks took him. Remember, the plan is also " If Tommen bites it before producing an heir, things get really uncertain really quick -- Cersei becomes the heir to House Lannister, the Lannisters back Myrcella's claim to the Iron Throne, which will result in a Baratheon-Lannister-Martell merged house ruling Westeros; assuming Cersei has no future children and Jaime holds to his vows, Myrcella is suddenly in line to inherit the entire house. This pisses off the Tyrells immensely, because they hate the Martells and also they just got squeezed out of the Iron Throne. They probably turn around and offer Margaery to Stannis (or possibly Loras to Shireen) and back his claim, and the Lannister-Martells and the Baratheon-Tyrells go to war. Basically, if everything goes according to plan, the Lannisters have given the Martells no new power and ended up wielding the power of three Great Houses, with a fourth as close allies. But they're in a very precarious position now, and if anything else goes wrong, it's all going to collapse catastrophically.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:04
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CapnAndy posted:They probably turn around and offer Margaery to Stannis (or possibly Loras to Shireen) and back his claim, and the Lannister-Martells and the Baratheon-Tyrells go to war.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:12
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Lycus posted:I just find the idea of Margaery continually being passed from king to king hilarious.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:14
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I mean, really, if Tommen were to die, would anyone still dare to marry Margaery? That's three dead king-husbands.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:16
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While that may seem pretty bad for the average husband, it's about on par what kings and princes are concerned. Being anywhere prominent in the line of succession is deadly.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:23
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Tyrion loves Tommen and Myrcella, and definitely did not send her off to be a hostage. He sent her off because it helps the family, makes her safer (Dorne doesn't get invaded), and keeps Cersei from making her a terrible human.Doltos posted:Sansa is a completely different story than the present day Martell/Lannister rivalry. Sansa's father was declared a traitor and beheaded. Sansa's oldest brother was declared a traitor and eventually beheaded. Sansa's brothers are presumed to have been burnt alive by Theon, and Arya is also presumed missing and dead. Sansa never married Joff, so there was no marriage to annul. They just realized that marrying her wouldn't be nearly as advantageous as marrying Margarine(though still not bad), and they had an out and took it. Tyrion marrying her added another great House directly related to the Lannisters, leaving only the Tullys, the Arryns, and the Shitiron Islanders. It wasn't consolation, and it wasn't to look generous. Sansa could hardly object anyway, and she did come to learn that Tyrion is probably the only decent adult within twenty miles of King's Landing at this point. At least until Varys loving steps up. Lycus posted:I mean, really, if Tommen were to die, would anyone still dare to marry Margaery? That's three dead king-husbands. Margaery is becoming the Harrenhal of wives. Looks cool, lots of prestige, but man are you hosed if you go in there. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 18:25
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Hypothetically, if Stannis decided to hire assassins to take out Cirsei, Tomman and Myrcella, would rule then immediately pass to Renly since Stannis is a traitor? NM checked a wiki and found out he's already dead. Too many characters to keep track of.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:29
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Bigass Moth posted:Hypothetically, if Stannis decided to hire assassins to take out Cirsei, Tomman and Myrcella, would rule then immediately pass to Renly since Stannis is a traitor? Renly is really really dead. He also doesn't need to kill Cersei at all. She has no claim.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:30
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Bigass Moth posted:Hypothetically, if Stannis decided to hire assassins to take out Cirsei, Tomman and Myrcella, would rule then immediately pass to Renly since Stannis is a traitor? Renly was also branded a traitor to the crown so no. Plus he wouldn't be much good anyway given the current situation he's in.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:31
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BillBear posted:Renly was also branded a traitor to the crown so no. Plus he wouldn't be much good anyway given the current situation he's in. Renly is the only one who everyone agrees is a traitor. He had absolutely no claim to the throne besides "well I have this army".
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Jun 12, 2014 18:33
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Bobo the Red posted:Margaery is becoming the Harrenhal of wives. Looks cool, lots of prestige, but man are you hosed if you go in there.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:34
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Bobo the Red posted:Tyrion loves Tommen and Myrcella, and definitely did not send her off to be a hostage. He sent her off because it helps the family, makes her safer (Dorne doesn't get invaded), and keeps Cersei from making her a terrible human. Yeah, in theory Dorne was a great place to send her, especially compared to the other two options Tyrion presented. Despite the Martells hating their guts, they're highly unlikely to murder a child for revenge because of the reasons for said hatred; they are basically the only kingdom in Westeros that has managed to avoid being invaded (at least successfully); their isolationism would keep her out of the politics consuming the rest of the realm; and, as stated, trying to get the Martells to hate them less/ally with them is not a bad idea. Unfortunately (for the Lannisters), things have gone completely pear-shaped and if anything the Martells hate them even more now, and Myrcella being in their hands, while not dangerous to her (at least in theory), is probably really bad for them. Also despite her being one of my favorite characters, I too find the prospect of her husbands continuing to die amusing. If it keeps up it'll go from tragedy to farce.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:34
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Bigass Moth posted:
The kid who plays Tommen (Season 3 spoilers) was actually killed in Season 3 as Martyn Lannister
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Jun 12, 2014 18:35
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Bigass Moth posted:Hypothetically, if Stannis decided to hire assassins to take out Cirsei, Tomman and Myrcella, would rule then immediately pass to Renly since Stannis is a traitor? Now I'm wondering who the hell would be king in this scenario. Ser Pounce?
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Jun 12, 2014 18:36
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Roland Jones posted:No, the plan was to marry Myrcella to the son of Doran. Like, that was Tyrion's whole thing; present three different marriage candidates to Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycell, and see which one Cersei comes to him to complain about. Sending her to be a hostage would make no sense at all; Theon wasn't a hostage because of goodwill, it was because the Greyjoys got crushed in a rebellion and the Starks took him. No, Tyrion sent away Myrcella to keep her out of Cersei's clutches while trying to figure out who betrays what he says to Cersei, which is why he presented the three different marriage candidates. It's not the Lannister's plans to get Myrcella married off, at least not in the books after Joffrey dies. Cersei spends many passages pissed off that Myrcella is gone. Theon was completely a hostage out of goodwill. It ensured that the Greyjoys wouldn't act up again. Man you are really wrong and then more people jumped on your wrong train just because you said it like you knew something.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:38
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All this succession chat has made me notice that all the major houses are really really small. The Lannisters are the only ones that seem to have any cousins or lesser branches. Ned's siblings all died except for celibate Benjen, but apparently there's no offspring from his grandfather's siblings either. There's not a single Arryn left but the boy. There's no living relatives of Robert but Stannis, Shireen, and his bastards. There's no Tyrell males that could take over Highgarden if Loras joins the Kingsguard.(There's definitely a boatload of extra Tyrells in the books though) The Martell and Tully siblings don't mention any extended relatives but their lines of succession haven't been mentioned yet, so who knows. What's really amusing is that (pretending Tommen and Myrcella are legitimate), the deaths of Tommen, Myrcella, Stannis, and Shireen would result in, as far as I can tell, Dany being Robert's next-of-kin (his grandmother is her great-aunt.)
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Jun 12, 2014 18:40
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Roland Jones posted:Also despite her being one of my favorite characters, I too find the prospect of her husbands continuing to die amusing. If it keeps up it'll go from tragedy to farce. If Margaery wants to marry you and Jaime is sworn to protect you, you're pretty much already dead.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:40
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Doltos posted:No, Tyrion sent away Myrcella to keep her out of Cersei's clutches while trying to figure out who betrays what he says to Cersei, which is why he presented the three different marriage candidates. It's not the Lannister's plans to get Myrcella married off, at least not in the books after Joffrey dies. Cersei spends many passages pissed off that Myrcella is gone. Good thing we are talking about the show where Tyrion says he is sending her off to get married.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:41
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Bobo the Red posted:Good thing we are talking about the show where Tyrion says he is sending her off to get married. That has nothing to do with show vs. books. In both he's pretty clearly scheming to find out who's Cersei's informant and get Myrcella away, who she marries is second to that.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:42
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Hobo Clown posted:Now I'm wondering who the hell would be king in this scenario. Ser Pounce? Fellatio del Toro posted:If Margaery wants to marry you and Jaime is sworn to protect you, you're pretty much already dead.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:43
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