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Capfalcon posted:"I didn't think it was right or important before, but like the rest of America, my opinion has changed over time." Not as good as "I believe everyone has fundamental civil rights - gay, straight, etc. - and that includes marriage, but it was politically impossible for me to support gay marriage in the 90s" but certainly better than her lovely answer.
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Jun 12, 2014 21:41
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I think the only people who honestly believed people like the Clintons or Obamas gave a poo poo (as in had reservations) over gay marriage were the rubes they had to lie to over that poo poo, and even they probably didnt really buy it.
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Jun 12, 2014 21:41
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Dystram posted:It's because anyone claiming to have "evolved" on the issue is full of poo poo. What happened is: the media became more gay-friendly -> people became more gay-friendly -> politicians feel like they can be gay-friendly. Oh noooo her support of my equal rights isn't genuine enough, gently caress her.
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Jun 12, 2014 21:42
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SedanChair posted:Terry Gross is a perfect human being
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Jun 12, 2014 21:42
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DynamicSloth posted:Yes, so could Mitt Romney but neither of them will, neither have any bearing on my assertion that no "Democrat" could out fundraise Hillary this cycle. I see you're having trouble understanding jokes.
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Jun 12, 2014 21:43
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GlyphGryph posted:That's the worst part! I don't care if she's pure, I don't care if she's always supported it or changed her mind or doesn't even care about it that much. So long as she's willing to back it at all she's fine. She does back same sex marriage  , all that's happening in that interview is her refusing to be baited into saying she used to secretly be for it in the 1990s. No politician is going to admit to lying to the public for years, her position is considerably less mendacious than Obama regressing to opposition in 2008 after previously favouring it while winking that he would soon change his position.
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Jun 12, 2014 21:45
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Yea you realize the 'best' answer people are putting forth is still 'I was a big coward' right? Like all you guys bitching about 'empty suit' think the better optics would be 'yea I lied for a few years about equal rights because it might have maybe hurt my personal career goals'.
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Jun 12, 2014 21:50
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DynamicSloth posted:all that's happening in that interview is her refusing to be baited into saying she used to secretly be for it in the 1990s. It's also her scrambling to avoid saying that she was opposed to it. Her presenting gay marriage as this brand new idea that she just had to mull over for a while before deciding that she was ready to call it good is disingenuous. eviltastic fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 21:58
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Hillary supporting gay marriage in the 90s would have been more politically difficult for her than most people in politics at the time. She was the subject of a long-running campaign to prove that she "converted" to lesbianism at Wellesley and maintained a relationship with one or more of her classmates in secret. The worst of it came from Ed Klein's The Truth About Hillary, which also sought to prove that Bill had to rape Hillary to conceive Chelsea.
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Jun 12, 2014 21:59
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Seriously of all the targets for this dumb poo poo Hillary, who had constant vitriol of "I BET SHE'S A SECRET DYKE" surrounding her, is a pretty hilarious one. Did Gross call Obama out on the fact that he literally went from being pro gay marriage to anti to pro again, because that's at least a valid 'the gently caress happened bro' moment.
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Jun 12, 2014 22:03
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Joementum posted:Hillary supporting gay marriage in the 90s would have been more politically difficult for her than most people in politics at the time. She was the subject of a long-running campaign to prove that she "converted" to lesbianism at Wellesley and maintained a relationship with one or more of her classmates in secret. The worst of it came from Ed Klein's The Truth About Hillary, which also sought to prove that Bill had to rape Hillary to conceive Chelsea. I find it odd that anybody is trying to outflank the Clintons of all people on gay rights since Bill made gays in the military a campaign promise that was only blunted by the efforts of Sam Nunn to become the DA/DT executive order. And DA/DT ultimately paved the way for full repeal of DA/DT and military anti-gay discrimination, which was the explicit aim of the 1992 Clinton campaign almost 20 years earlier.
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Jun 12, 2014 22:14
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I think we're just criticizing the way in which a smart saavy future presidential candidate answered a question. I don't think we're saying she's a secret homo-hater or something like that.
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Jun 12, 2014 22:34
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Seriously of all the targets for this dumb poo poo Hillary, who had constant vitriol of "I BET SHE'S A SECRET DYKE" surrounding her, is a pretty hilarious one. Did Gross call Obama out on the fact that he literally went from being pro gay marriage to anti to pro again, because that's at least a valid 'the gently caress happened bro' moment. I don't think Obama has gone on her show. Gross is not a big fan of evasive answers.
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Jun 12, 2014 22:36
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Dystram posted:I think we're just criticizing the way in which a smart saavy future presidential candidate answered a question. I don't think we're saying she's a secret homo-hater or something like that. Well, the real answer is that Hillary was always gay for the gay agenda and couldn't outwardly support it for obvious loving reasons and can't admit to anybody that she secretly supported it when she says she didn't support it for obvious loving reasons. The whole "I evolved" language of major Dem gay-rights supporters to rope-a-dope right wing opposition is some peak Frank Luntz for Democrats level messaging. I hate a ton of things about the whole third way neolib crew, but Gay Rights is one of their most amazing and almost unvarnished triumphs which they planned from the beginning and saw through to the end. In 1992 we never dreamed that they could pull this poo poo off.
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Jun 12, 2014 22:44
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amanasleep posted:I hate a ton of things about the whole third way neolib crew, but Gay Rights is one of their most amazing and almost unvarnished triumphs which they planned from the beginning and saw through to the end. In 1992 we never dreamed that they could pull this poo poo off. I agree whole-heartedly. At this point it's probably difficult for younger people to imagine Ellen coming out as gay as this earth-shaking event, but people went nuts over the fact that a famous person on TV was openly gay. Of course, it's not linear, from what I understand we were making progress in the 70s, but then the 80s happened and things reverted. But, I would caution against saying things like "through to the end" because there's still a long way to go. ENDA would be nice, for starters.
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Jun 12, 2014 22:52
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In policy news that doesn't just amount to the same answer every politician will give... Hillary Clinton on Cuba: ‘We Should Advocate for End of Embargo’ quote:Hillary Clinton made a case Thursday for lifting the embargo on Cuba, describing it as “Castro’s best friend” and signaling she does not fear any potential political backlash in Florida by suggesting the U.S. normalize relations with the island nation. DynamicSloth fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 22:59
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SedanChair posted:I don't think Obama has gone on her show. Gross is not a big fan of evasive answers. Obama was asked about how he went from being pro-gay Marriage in the 90's to anti in 2008. His answer was a really lame combo of "Well, I represented different people at the time." and "I got a million of those candidate questionnaire papers and I can't remember writing this specific one."
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Jun 12, 2014 23:03
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lol, the embargo is one of the biggest things keeping Cuba communist. Rubio's a loving idiot, as are any of the Cuban community that believe that line of reasoning.
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Jun 12, 2014 23:10
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Spatula City posted:lol, the embargo is one of the biggest things keeping Cuba communist. Rubio's a loving idiot, as are any of the Cuban community that believe that line of reasoning. Seemingly it's not very popular, even among a majority of Cuban-Americans but something's keeping it alive Obama felt he had to pledge to maintain the embargo to be competitive in Florida in 2008.
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Jun 12, 2014 23:15
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Spatula City posted:lol, the embargo is one of the biggest things keeping Cuba communist. Rubio's a loving idiot, as are any of the Cuban community that believe that line of reasoning. Listen, the embargo is the fastest way to end Communism in Cuba. Look what a great job it's done!
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Jun 12, 2014 23:16
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Spatula City posted:lol, the embargo is one of the biggest things keeping Cuba communist. Rubio's a loving idiot, as are any of the Cuban community that believe that line of reasoning. He knows what side his bread is buttered on, as do the ex-pat Miami criminals and terrorists who collect money for their pointless little cause.
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Jun 12, 2014 23:36
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Supposedly Castro (the younger) is supposed to leave office in 2018 or so and if Hillary becomes President that's right in the middle of her administration.
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Jun 12, 2014 23:38
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DynamicSloth posted:In policy news that doesn't just amount to the same answer every politician will give... quote:Former Florida Gov. Charlie Crist, currently campaigning to retake the governor’s mansion, believes the Cuba embargo didn’t work and should be “taken away.” quote:Nationwide, 56 percent of Americans say they support normalizing relations with Cuba, with the figure jumping to 63 percent for residents of the state of Florida, the poll says. The figure for Latinos nationwide who support a change was also higher than among the general public, at 62 percent. fade5 fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 00:05
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Joementum posted:Hillary supporting gay marriage in the 90s would have been more politically difficult for her than most people in politics at the time. She was the subject of a long-running campaign to prove that she "converted" to lesbianism at Wellesley and maintained a relationship with one or more of her classmates in secret. The worst of it came from Ed Klein's The Truth About Hillary, which also sought to prove that Bill had to rape Hillary to conceive Chelsea. Here's a friendly reminder that when Ellen DeGeneres came out on her TV show in the late 90's, every episode from that point on had a parental advisory warning.
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Jun 13, 2014 01:24
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Raskolnikov38 posted:http://youtu.be/wLoqti0lzAw Thanks. poo poo's therapeutic. Seriously, this is a crazy lady staggering around her trailer with a glass of butterscotch schnapps, chainsmoking, just screaming all bloody murder at the world for not sharing her facebook posts. Griping about how much time she spends - and she knows she has more time than most since she lives alone and has no kids - posting on facebook. She'd set up for the inevitable victory - put her TV on her couch, stuck her trash can on the couch so it'd be within reach of the computer, made up a dinner of cheese dip and chips, got her smokes, beer, and buttershots, and then reality must have landed like a baby grand piano heaved off the penthouse. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 01:31
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I mean, her discussion of her history with the issue was just fine, it's just that she didn't come out and say "yes I was for it" or "no I was against it." I'd like to see a little more boldness from Hillary about things other than Cuba. And I'd like to see her be a little more candid as well. But the Clintons don't really have a history of knowing how to speak plainly or tell the truth. She could really get away with a lot but she's stuck in third way mode. e: because that's fundamentally who she is. Much more so than Obama, she has no core principles other than a desire to be in power. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 01:33
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Here's a friendly reminder that when Ellen DeGeneres came out on her TV show in the late 90's, every episode from that point on had a parental advisory warning. JCPenney also pulled their sponsorship from the show. We all should know how that turned out in the end. 
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Jun 13, 2014 01:46
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SedanChair posted:I mean, her discussion of her history with the issue was just fine, it's just that she didn't come out and say "yes I was for it" or "no I was against it." Again Obama literally went from being down with us being married to saying 'nah it's not the right thing' when he needed the bigot vote to being down with it again when we passed 51%. To say she has literally no principles compared to that is absurd.
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Jun 13, 2014 01:55
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skaboomizzy posted:Sanders will show up for one or two debates and get the Mike Gravel spot at the end of the stage and 4 minutes of talk time in two hours. Maybe he'll stick around long enough to get 2% in NH. I don't know about this. If Hillary gets in, you clear the field of a lot of potential candidates. You'd probably end up with Hillary vs. some other iconoclasts with no shot against her like Schweitzer and then it becomes a much smaller stage.
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Jun 13, 2014 01:55
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Presumably, the networks will allow Sanders on stage if only because it'll be great TV, and Hillary's campaign probably won't object because his presence will make any semi-serious challengers, like Martin O'Malley appear more on his level than hers, but there's no way they'll do 20+ debates like they did in 2008.
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Jun 13, 2014 02:01
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Sharkie posted:I agree whole-heartedly. At this point it's probably difficult for younger people to imagine Ellen coming out as gay as this earth-shaking event, but people went nuts over the fact that a famous person on TV was openly gay. Of course, it's not linear, from what I understand we were making progress in the 70s, but then the 80s happened and things reverted. But, I would caution against saying things like "through to the end" because there's still a long way to go. ENDA would be nice, for starters. Sorry, didn't mean to imply that the job was finished, only that they never dropped the ball even when times were tough. If you want to put it in a way that doesn't give the Clintons all the credit, you could say that Gay Rights Activists staged the most successful infiltration of a major political party by a fringe agenda in modern history.
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Jun 13, 2014 02:06
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I remember that in 2008 debates Hillary seemed to bounce off of Kucinich well. Tatum Girlparts posted:Again Obama literally went from being down with us being married to saying 'nah it's not the right thing' when he needed the bigot vote to being down with it again when we passed 51%. To say she has literally no principles compared to that is absurd. No, I think you're misunderstanding me. Obama triangulated like a motherfucker on gay marriage, just like Hillary. But gay marriage was never really a fundamental part of his core principles. His core principles are that people need to cross boundaries and understand one another. That doesn't mean that all human rights are or always have been central to his principles. But there are a very few things that I think deep down Obama would like us to understand; that race is a pernicious illusion, that black culture has value, that assigning yourself blindly to any group's full ideology is foolish. Clinton believes she should be president; that's all. I guess you could say she is passionate about women's rights based on her history, but I think that was always a stand-in for her rights. To be president. Do you remember her behavior in 2008? These are not the actions of a person with principles. Hey, I'm gonna vote for her; I think out of her shrewdness she'll govern wisely, and her history in the Senate says to me that she'll have the taste for personal interaction that Obama never did. Not that a taste for personal interaction would have helped Obama.
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Jun 13, 2014 02:09
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SedanChair posted:e: because that's fundamentally who she is. Much more so than Obama, she has no core principles other than a desire to be in power. Seriously though, reheating the Rick Lazio campaign is not going to prevent Hillary from getting the Democratic nomination.
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Jun 13, 2014 02:11
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I was going to keep arguing this but then I remembered you're SedanChair and literally argued in another thread that Obama is a sociopath who literally doesn't understand love beyond the crude illusion of how 'people in love' act and all, so I'm gonna assume this is yet another 'hm a prominent minority politician better put em in their place by saying they're literally broken people' thing you're doing.
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Jun 13, 2014 02:12
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Wow, thanks. I can't wait to suppress all minorities. And everything I said about Obama goes 10X for Hillary. Listen to that interview; that's a broken person, period. This is who the system lets through to rule us.
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Jun 13, 2014 02:13
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I just legit have no idea how to argue with someone if you genuinely want me to think you think Obama is simultaneously a sociopath who doesn't understand love and married his wife for his political future, and also a man who genuinely wanted to have a conversation about race and black culture's place in the history of America, but only if you can use that as a blunt cudgel against the REAL sociopath monster (insert politician you don't like today here). Like, I'm just waiting a week for you to explain why Joe Biden probably killed a hooker once just to see how it feels and Hillary is basically a modern feminist saint or whatever.
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Jun 13, 2014 02:17
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Sharkie posted:I agree whole-heartedly. At this point it's probably difficult for younger people to imagine Ellen coming out as gay as this earth-shaking event, but people went nuts over the fact that a famous person on TV was openly gay. Of course, it's not linear, from what I understand we were making progress in the 70s, but then the 80s happened and things reverted. But, I would caution against saying things like "through to the end" because there's still a long way to go. ENDA would be nice, for starters. Progress in the 70s was largely "we will no longer immediately arrest you for being gay" and the 80s involved that extending beyond the first few states and cities. This did not involve the public at large approving of gay people in general or anything; even though there were a couple of openly or semi-openly gay people who had already been famous. Things didn't revert in the 80s.
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Jun 13, 2014 02:23
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You're undervaluing Hillary to say she has no politics beyond her ambition. Healthcare was a primary issue in 2008 because of her presence in the race, and her plan won out in the end with PPACA. Meanwhile, Deval Patrick might run... in 2020.
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Jun 13, 2014 02:28
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Healthcare was her signature issue and a previous failure. There's no reason she couldn't have pursued it out of continuing ambition. And Tatum, Biden seems like a pretty real dude. That's one reason he's not the president. And that other time I was kind of spinning out the possibility that Obama doesn't have emotions, I'm not as married to the idea as I am that Hillary has no principles. Maybe you should stop pursuing me across multiple threads like T-1000 about it. e: VVV you got me there woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 02:28
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Greed is a principle. 
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Jun 13, 2014 02:30
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