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Jon Joe posted:Fair enough. However it's still the easiest brand to forge even at 15 water gems, imo. I guess that's true. They all require at least level 2 in a given path since Water Bracelets can boost that up to level 3, and you're probably more likely to have those than the multi-path mages needed for the others. I think the natural attack thing would make most sense in the thematic mod. I'm sure there's balancing going on there but it strikes me first and foremost as a "why can a creature with two claws only use one at a time" kind of thing.
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Jun 10, 2014 05:41
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Should new spells be added for the purpose of balance? There's pros and cons to doing so. Pros include giving certain paths more options, and filling holes for particular nations without giving them new mages or troops. Cons include the potential for wider imbalance and the existence of a lower key alternative in simply altering existing spells. One of the greatest controversies in dom3 CBM was the existence of the endgame diversity mod, with its Zmey and whatnot. IIRC it was the only part of the mod that added new spells. It managed to remove some problems from the basegame (fire being a mostly useless gemtype, limited thug chassis availability) and introduce new ones (over-reliance on the new summons, to the detriment of other potential strategies). Therefore I ask all of you; should new spells be created for the purpose of balance, or should we work purely in the confines of buffing/nerfing what illwinter has given us?
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Jun 11, 2014 00:23
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You can definitely have a balance mod that does one, and a balance mod that does the other, just make sure you know which you're going for and don't halfass it. CBM actually added a poo poo ton of spells and units other than just EDM, mostly national, and a lot of it was awful, although there were good ideas in there. Personally, I would play mods that make fewer changes over mods that don't.
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Jun 11, 2014 00:43
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Jon Joe posted:One of the greatest controversies in dom3 CBM was the existence of the endgame diversity mod, with its Zmey and whatnot. IIRC it was the only part of the mod that added new spells.
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Jun 11, 2014 00:45
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TheDemon posted:You can definitely have a balance mod that does one, and a balance mod that does the other, just make sure you know which you're going for and don't halfass it. CBM actually added a poo poo ton of spells and units other than just EDM, mostly national, and a lot of it was awful, although there were good ideas in there. Bolded is something I definitely agree with. Better to make the smallest changes possible. I think I will allow my mod to make new spells but only when it's absolutely required.
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Jun 11, 2014 00:49
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Jon Joe posted:Bolded is something I definitely agree with. Better to make the smallest changes possible. In general i support mods that add a small amount of content over those that dramatically change existing content, though I'm also not really one for mods in general especially during the early phases of a game's life where the meta is still being tested out.
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Jun 11, 2014 01:23
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I Love You! posted:In general i support mods that add a small amount of content over those that dramatically change existing content, though I'm also not really one for mods in general especially during the early phases of a game's life where the meta is still being tested out. Then you should totally try out my dino-mods as linked on the previous page. It adds a small amount of content (a nation in MA and one in EA) and does not change existing content! Also there are dinosaurs. 
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Jun 11, 2014 02:15
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jBrereton posted:Nothing like. The difference between CBM and non-CBM MA Ulm, for example, was night and day. I Love You! posted:In general i support mods that add a small amount of content over those that dramatically change existing content, though I'm also not really one for mods in general especially during the early phases of a game's life where the meta is still being tested out. A general rule of thumb I'd like to see in mods that are more interested in balance vs "lots of new stuff" is that they don't require you to completely re-learn the nation. A good balance mod that's going to add things should include a few (small) options to the nation that players can capitalize on or not, but it shouldn't change the fundamental character of the nation. When it comes to adding new units, spells, etc. it would be better to make them slightly underpowered and see if players find uses/combos for them instead of trying to "fix" nations that the modder feels are too weak by giving them new overpowered units that make the rest of the national troops obsolete. When EA Agratha was considered the shittiest of the poo poo, there were lots of suggestions on how to improve them with stat and path boosts, but Illwinter's solution was weird, in a good way. A dirt cheap E1 researcher with no ability to lead troops, a guaranteed E1W1 mage, a unique W summon that synergizes well with umbrals and a sacred mindblaster helped make them more credible and interesting without totally changing Agratha's strategy or the character of the national troops.
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Jun 11, 2014 03:15
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Aren't there like 600+ spells already? What is there to be gained, given that number, by adding new spells rather than altering existing ones?
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Jun 11, 2014 04:24
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The Sharmat posted:Aren't there like 600+ spells already? 600 spells are not, there are still a lot of bases that aren't covered, like fire summons that aren't garbage.
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Jun 11, 2014 04:27
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Contact Abysian Warlord Chassis
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Jun 11, 2014 04:52
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Decrepus posted:Contact Abysian Warlord Chassis Hahahaha
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Jun 11, 2014 05:00
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The idea to give Abysia a Fire spell that lets them reduce their age is both thematic and a good idea from a gameplay perspective and is an example of a new spell that improves a nation without changing them.
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Jun 11, 2014 05:20
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Schneeble posted:Then you should totally try out my dino-mods as linked on the previous page. It adds a small amount of content (a nation in MA and one in EA) and does not change existing content! Also there are dinosaurs. Just downloaded and browsing some of the units a bit, I really like the fluff you've come up with. I always felt like there should've been some real deal dinos in EA, so I'm definitely going to try this out. Gluttony trait makes me sad though. 
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Jun 11, 2014 08:24
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Eschatos posted:600 spells are not, there are still a lot of bases that aren't covered, like fire summons that aren't garbage. But fire summons EXIST. So surely it's better to make the existing ones not garbage than to make entirely new ones just to leave the old ones ignored?
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Jun 11, 2014 09:09
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Actually I would prefer if there were AoE fire buffs, rather than summons. Flaming weapons, AoE Fire Shields, all very low on the tech tree (burn bright, burn fast). I'm not convinced about fire needing better summons, it's not fire's thing. Fire is all about full on aggression early on and burning stuff. Fire lacks good stuff to burn your fire gems on. Maybe a VERY POWERFUL evocation which costs a Fire gem to cast would be nice. Also, change the 'add 3 Heat scales' spell to F3 from F3A1 which can currently be cast by like 4 nations over all ages, and none of the Abysias.
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Jun 11, 2014 10:50
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M_Bison posted:Actually I would prefer if there were AoE fire buffs, rather than summons. Flaming weapons, AoE Fire Shields, all very low on the tech tree (burn bright, burn fast). I'm not convinced about fire needing better summons, it's not fire's thing. Fire is all about full on aggression early on and burning stuff. If you get to year 3 and your armies and mages are getting ruined, that isn't going to change at any point. Single cast of Rain and you're already in the "oh poo poo I think my time is over" zone. Especially when that's happening on the first turn of every battle ever because Water is easy to break into/find, and easy to boost. Fire nations already tend to have quite a good early game, too. EA Abysia is unquestionably at its strongest in the first year and a half, because its troops are very heavily armoured and resistant to a lot of early evocation as a result. MA Marignon gets a lot out of Ench 4 for Flaming Arrows and has reasonable national troops. Gath does well when everyone only has one or two castles. All of these nations can (although in EA Aby's case maybe shouldn't) use a big bless as well as scales. jBrereton fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 11:34
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As an Abysia fan I'd approve of anything that is more interesting to watch than Fire Storm as a battlefield spell.
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Jun 11, 2014 11:34
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Dre2Dee2 posted:Just downloaded and browsing some of the units a bit, I really like the fluff you've come up with. I always felt like there should've been some real deal dinos in EA, so I'm definitely going to try this out. Thanks! Let me know what you think. As for the gluttony trait, it seemed like the most thematic drawback available (aside from the low MR, which I did and which keeps with the dominions template for animals but is also kind of boring).
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Jun 11, 2014 12:03
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M_Bison posted:Actually I would prefer if there were AoE fire buffs, rather than summons. Flaming weapons, AoE Fire Shields, all very low on the tech tree (burn bright, burn fast). I'm not convinced about fire needing better summons, it's not fire's thing. Fire is all about full on aggression early on and burning stuff. Fire shield is broken as hell as a troop buff unless you're fighting someone like the later Ulms or Abysia. Pretty much a complete I win button for troops in melee.
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Jun 11, 2014 12:44
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Fire is actually a really decent path and is good at killing poo poo already! The only problem with fire is that there are so many spells designed to neuter fire magic and there are no equivalent spells to neuter other paths. Either change how these spells work or make there be similar options to gently caress with Air, Water, etc.
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Jun 11, 2014 13:25
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Remove rain, fire magic is now good!
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Jun 11, 2014 14:14
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Yeah, it makes more sense to balance those ~150 spells that no one uses than introduce new one. Also, the different schools of magic are supposed to be different. If each one (Earth, Fire, Air, etc) would have the equivlent set of anti thug, AoE damage, battlefield, summons, etc... yeah it would be balanced but the game would be more plain.
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Jun 11, 2014 14:16
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This is a really difficult environment for making balance changes - there are so many variables that determine the results of a strategy in any given game. Normally when you look at balance changes, you want hundreds (maybe thousands) of points of data to work from. You test in situations with the regular noise of the game, and you also test in situations that control as much as possible so you can focus on just the element being changed. That second one is nearly impossible in Dominions. Games can take months to resolve. We don't have hundreds of points of data - as individuals we have a few dozen, maybe. And those are all muddied by stuff like people AI'ing out early, people being new to the game and feeding other players, and other goofiness. On the flip side, there's also an element to Dominions that helps deal with the relative strength of strategies in most games, and that's diplomacy. Opportunism rules the day in goon games, but people also do work together to deal with larger problems out of necessity. I'd probably focus changes more on things that are clearly unfun for 90% of players in games. Burden of Time is a good example of that. It actually serves a really important purpose in limiting late-game blood nations so I'd be hesitant to change it, but it also ruins a lot of games very quickly.
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Jun 11, 2014 16:44
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Turin Turambar posted:Also, the different schools of magic are supposed to be different. If each one (Earth, Fire, Air, etc) would have the equivlent set of anti thug, AoE damage, battlefield, summons, etc... yeah it would be balanced but the game would be more plain. I don't think anyone is arguing for making all of the magic paths the same in every way, there's just a recurring observation that fire has no worthwhile summons while all the others do. This isn't a theoretical discussion about the ideal state of the game, it's more that people have noticed that fire gems tend to accumulate in large piles. I think it makes the game more plain if there's one type of gem that almost always gets alchemized into astral pearls or gold. I don't think it would be the worst thing in the world if there was a "Summon Fire Trolls" and "Summon Fire Troll Lord" spell modeled after the water and nature spells. They wouldn't be amazing, but it would at least be something to do with them, especially in the early game.
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Jun 11, 2014 16:57
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Fire snakes and the fire drake are actually pretty drat good. The problem is that they do the exact same things fire evocation already does. You can diversify that, but you lose some of what makes the path differences in Dominions good. Personally I'd consider tuning up fire's gimmick, especially in the later half of the research tree, to be much more destructive along the same lines as before. Have Pillar of Fire and Fire Storm just end things, like, double their damage/aoe kind of ending. Maybe add a high-level fire summon, but don't make it a thug chassis or tanky, make it a more destructive summon along the lines of what we already have.
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Jun 11, 2014 18:21
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I guess it's because fire doesn't have really good mid grade spells that are relevant for a long amount of time. Water still has access to neat stuff like falling frost/frozen heart/encase in ice, earth has destruction/maws, air has its signature t-strike, but fire doesn't really progress much from fireball and falling fires both being simply direct damage spells that are partially blocked by armor.
amuayse fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 21:16
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amuayse posted:I guess it's because fire doesn't have really good mid grade spells that are relevant for a long amount of time. Water still has access to neat stuff like falling frost/frozen heart/encase in ice, earth has destruction/maws, air has its signature t-strike, but fire doesn't really progress much from fireball and falling fires both being simply direct damage spells that are partially blocked by armor. Incinerate and Falling Fires are pretty comparable to Frozen Heart/Falling Frost especially since most fire mages are F2 and can summon phoenix power. Phoenix Pyre is a really cool spell that creates all kinds of wacky hijinx that are actually good, but you need to work for it. Fire Cloud is real good at thinning lines, wrecking morale, taking out mirror image, etc. Fire Storm is very good and routes armies fast as gently caress. Flaming Arrows and Heat from Hell are both exceptional spells, but everyone knows this. Prison of Fire is excellent against basically everything and scales great in the midgame with more casters/more ranks in fire. A group of mages casting this will tear apart armies. Those are all good midgame fire spells and most of them are underused. I would for sure be ok with seeing a LITTLE more options for fire but the problem isn't fire magic being bad, it's fire being straightforward and having hard counters for some reason while other paths do not.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:13
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I feel like Fire Storm and Pillar of Fire are very strong. Fire Storm can clear an entire battlefield of chaff and unprotected mages in just a few rounds. Some of the best answers to it (Army of Gold, Fire Fend) are deeper in research to reach. Pillar of Fire is like a more spammable and accessible Thunder Strike that may be in reach of many of your research mages around the time when you're looking to kick them out of their labs. It's not armor negating, but it is armor piercing at least and hits very hard with a fatigue component as well. Even with Rain going, it's still pretty effective. Flaming Arrows is worth mentioning when you talk about Fire in the midgame, too.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:24
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What if Rain was moved to Evo 4?
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Jun 11, 2014 22:27
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Maybe it should be removed to The Dustbin Of History.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:27
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Rain is just a huge huge problem spell in every regard
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Jun 11, 2014 22:33
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I Love You! posted:Those are all good midgame fire spells and most of them are underused. I would for sure be ok with seeing a LITTLE more options for fire but the problem isn't fire magic being bad, it's fire being straightforward and having hard counters for some reason while other paths do not.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:42
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Remove Rain and remove Storm just for good measure.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:49
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I would go about making fire balanced by making it more destructive. As in yes fire can only do one thing, but it can do it better then anything else and ways to counteract it are difficult and/or expensive.
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Jun 11, 2014 23:00
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I'd like to see fire buffed by making lightless lanterns earlier construction. It would be cool for the hardcore fire nations that always float 100 fire gems to have a niche that is more remarkable than "well now you can summon a thug chasis just like D nations (used to)." I don't have the mplayer experience of other people in this thread but playing EA Abysia against a guy spamming rain + other fire counters was a hassle but the asymmetry there felt thematic and not game-breaking. I was far more crippled by the fact that F nations generally (and Abysia in particular) don't have great research engines and getting the really good Fire stuff is such a giant RP investment in dominions 4 that it pigeonholes you. I would happily spend fire gems to be able to diversify my research between evo + elementals + blind spam, but const 6 lanterns brings that out way too late to be meaningful. Also, a question - a while ago some people in this thread posted about maybe putting together a guide/webapp to help people do their own dominions hosting with AWS or whatever. Did that ever get going? I'm having great fun playing some games with friends but a bunch of them want to do a series of 1v1's and I'm not planning to bug Tenjou with hosting for 20+ games. TheresNoThyme fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 23:10
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Remember kids, if you want to take off an amulet of the fish to put on a ring of sorcery so you can cast arcane nexus, you probably want to do that underwater if you are aquatic.   On a related note, Hatwer wins GenEAricGame. He was most likely going to win anyway but suiciding my only S9 sealed the deal. May Entropy, the eternally demented, rest in peace. Turn 21 BoT rush as EA R'lyeh worked as designed. I was ~*relevant*~. Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jun 14, 2014 |
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Jun 14, 2014 01:02
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Tuba has finished after a mere 130 turns. It was a clusterfuck in the best possible way but I probably only feel like that because I won as LA R'yleth. There are a lot of  below but I thought a few people might be interested in hearing about the extreme late game of dom4.The early game was pretty promising for me after fighting Jotenheim to a standstill and striking a deal with them to let me keep one province, but then a bunch of people staled/went AI, and by about turn 70 it was a four way battle between me, C'tis, Lemuria and Gath, with a BoT that went up around turn 30, was dispelled once soon after, then was recast and never dispelled for the rest of the game. This may have been a contributing factor in most people going AI. Most of the AI players still had very viable situations and continued to clog the map for the rest of the game as well as launch attacks that had to be dealt with seriously as they occurred but were rarely threatening in the long-term. Gath stayed relevant for surprisingly long because of a Gift of Health that took a long time to be replaced, and then through the incredible power of Gift of Nature's Bounty. Ctis seemed relevant for a long time until we realized no one was scared of skeleton chariots, but most of the last 50 turns was a battle of position between me and Lemuria. Jsoh played a pretty interesting Lemuria bless strategy that let his sacred commanders and mages act as thugs, and he also managed to invade the ocean with unstoppable numbers of ghosts. The game stayed interesting only because we were both freespawn domkill nations largely unaffected by old age, but my feelings about freespawn/domkill nations are still mixed. Supercombatants were relatively ineffective throughout the game: everyone had a few, and while they could get a nice result against exactly the right kind of enemy, far too often they ran into an army composition slightly different from what they were equipped to handle and they died. This is very different from dom3: if your SC can't play nice with a backing army of a few hundred guys and some battle mages, they're really not useful because it's all about synergy. Thugs worked in squads, but everyone seemed to take unacceptably high casualties when using thugs for them to be a good investment. Letting LA R'yleth play on maps with no other UW nations seems like kind of a bullshit setup because they get way too much time to build up without any pressure. Having another UW nation that other players could send gold/gems/items to in order to help them fight R'yleth would keep things under control. There's almost always a land nation that will agree to let an UW nation hold a coastal province near them in exchange for no attacks, so it's better for UW nations to get what they want with diplomacy instead of invasions. The technique that seemed to work in Headtrauma was horror-spam, but that can only them want to go AI, not actually defeat them, and there are also plenty of pretty effective counters for it. What ended up breaking the stalemate for me in Tuba was casting Purgatory with a F7 caster using 300 gems. Purgatory is a game-winning global against any undead nation if you work on spreading your dominion, which I did. I actually lost almost every major battle I fought with Lemuria, I was just able to create a strategic situation that made it nearly impossible for him to make meaningful advances against me. Trample summons kept Lemuria's thugs in check for a few key battles and Vengeful water was also helpful in the late game, but it was icing on the cake. Gath was played by Baron who was a really good sport and an interesting opponent and Lemuria was played pretty cunningly by Jsoh--I'd like to hear their perspectives on the late game too.  By the end of the game I had 18 dom being spread by approximately 2 dozen prophets and 45 temples.  Typical gath unit in the late game after GoH was dispelled.  Starspawn conservatives demonstrate the true insanity R'yleth brings.
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Jun 14, 2014 08:05
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GenEAricgame has drawn to a close. Many people will remember this game as the one where Nuclearmonkee's EA Ryleh was traded Death Gems and blasted out an untouchable Burden of Time on turn 21. Most people gave up or quit soon after. It was also the game where a dude got domkilled by ILoveYou's Arcoscephale on turn 9. ILU's opening Dompush was so strong that it lasted for 7 years after the point where he AI'd out. Those of us who remained after BoT... had a pretty good game. We all got fat on the leftovers of the AI'd players - it was almost like a second opening expansion to the game. We then threw all manner of armies, mages, battle magic, remote attacks, harassment, globals and more at each other. In the end, while Nuclearmonkee was scripting his fights better and putting together better armies value-wise, my economy and research were too far along. Here were the score graphs. They're slightly cropped because I cut it where the game was conceded rather than the pointless AI clean up after it. Lessons learned:
I rushed Enchantment, hard. All of your serious casters can throw Hordes of Skeletons, and many Dai Oni can throw Strength of Giants, Flaming Arrows, Rigor Mortis and Heat from Hell. Revenants and Pale Riders are good places to spend Death Gems early on, and Flight is also very fun on Oni Generals/Dai Oni that pop up with Air. I did okay until I hit Enchantment 5, and then I suddenly won a war and took a ton of territory from several neighbors. Regarding the imprisoned build, EA Yomi is fairly strong in the first year due to demons having two forms, one of which is ethereal. Ao-Oni with Kuro-Oni are well suited to dealing with dragon rushes, and recruiting a Dai Oni at some point in the first year basically gives you an awake Titan to play with anyway. The growth was taken in anticipation of someone throwing down Burden of Time. I'd probably cut that back in the future for more Magic scales. I did regret my Dom8 throughout the game and wish I had taken Dom9. Vengeful Waters taxed me well, and it kept me from being aggressive for long periods of time.
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Jun 14, 2014 08:11
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 15:49 |
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It's R'lyeh. Just because it can't be pronounced with a human tongue doesn't mean you can't spell it!
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Jun 14, 2014 10:43
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