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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah Greek mythology is full of people getting what's coming to them. It's not karma in the actual Buddhist sense, but pretty much the same thing in general use of the term. Despite Buddhism making it to the classical world (and the classical world making it to Buddhism, in the case of Greco-Indian culture) I don't think its philosophy ever made any impact. Best as we can tell, nobody in the west gave a poo poo about it. On the topic of Greco-Indian culture, its always surprising to see just how far gods like Hercules actually traveled:  Wikipedia posted:Iconographical evolution from the Greek Heracles to Shukongōshin. From left to right:
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Jun 11, 2014 20:36
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alex314 posted:Did ancient civilizations of Mediterranean basin had something akin to modern western concept of karma? Something like "You reap what you sow" but maybe with some higher power driving the events? It's complicated, but I'm inclined to say no, not in general. There are a number of stories in Plato that resemble karma - perhaps the strongest one is in the last book of the Republic. Socrates claims that the soul must be immortal and spins a story about reincarnation. As part of that story, various heroes are shown choosing the form in which they will be reincarnated, and their choices are informed by their various defects. For instance, misanthropic Agamemnon chooses an eagle so as to have nothing to do with humanity, misogynistic Orpheus chooses to be a swan so as to not be born of a woman, the hunchbacked grouser Thersites chooses to become an ape, Odysseus chooses to become a completely unremarkable citizen to whom nothing interesting ever happens, and so on. I think this only superficially resembles karma. There isn't a sense of becoming progressively more good through good action or more evil through evil action -- it's more a sense of permanent stagnation. (Odysseus is the only one who makes a choice to be different, which is significant. But I don't think it's necessarily any different in a moral sense, just in the sense of being tired of having interesting things happening to him.) The Greek mythic landscape didn't really have any room for free will. People had their destiny and were inexorably drawn into it - Zeus nodded his head and that's the way things were. The individual goodness or badness of a particular person wasn't metaphysically significant; particularly badass souls got to hang out in a slightly different afterlife, but everyone else, good and evil alike, ended up as a shade. Even the people who were tortured in the afterlife weren't tortured because they were wicked people as such, they were tortured because they directly offended a god. (It's true that Greek tragedy is full of people who are punished for hubris -- but I think the interesting question there is whether or not those people could have made a choice to take different actions. I think the ancient Greeks would have said no, and I don't think karma makes sense if you can't choose what action to take in a given circumstance.)
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Jun 11, 2014 21:12
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Tao Jones posted:Odysseus chooses to become a completely unremarkable citizen to whom nothing interesting ever happens  This is amazing.
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Jun 11, 2014 23:39
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the JJ posted:There's a fair amount of just deserts going around in Greek mythology, but it's sort of weird because the gods are controlling events coming and going, so you get cases like Oedipus who is punished for a variety of transgressions (patricide and motherfucking) that were made an unavoidable part of his destiny. There wasn't like a universal code of conduct that one was meant to follow but doing something that offended the gods or a god in particular was a pretty common way to bring bad luck to yourself. Odysseus blinding Poseidon's son, Theseus jilting a favorite of Dionysus, Arachne for, uh, being better than Athena at something. The version I heard had Arachne's work not just be better than Athena but also showing the gods themselves exactly as the legends tell them - in one giant kiss-gently caress-stab orgy of blood, cum and ambrosia. Which, yeah, not the best thing to do when one of them is a few podes away and significantly pissed off at you already?
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Jun 12, 2014 00:05
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my dad posted:
I actually read that as Oedipus the first time.
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Jun 12, 2014 00:17
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Freudian posted:The version I heard had Arachne's work not just be better than Athena but also showing the gods themselves exactly as the legends tell them - in one giant kiss-gently caress-stab orgy of blood, cum and ambrosia. Which, yeah, not the best thing to do when one of them is a few podes away and significantly pissed off at you already? I thought that was Athena's; she portrayed Zeus castrating his father, and that's nasty as hell and nobody wants to look at that. Then the judges chose Arachne's work because Athena's made her seem like a loving psychopath, even if it was amazing and beyond the ken of mortals.
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Jun 12, 2014 03:26
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The best known version is Ovid's, in which Minerva's main picture is the contest between her and Poseidon over Athens, and her minors are pictures of dumb mortals who pissed off the gods (take the loving hint, Arachne). Arachne's is of gods seducing mortals in all their various bizarre ways. No judges, just Minerva being pissed off at Arachne's daring and spidering her.
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Jun 12, 2014 10:56
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It's not really that relevant what Arachne's tapestry depicted - that's just storytelling flourish. The point is that she wasn't paying due respect to the gods, i.e. she wasn't satisfied with just being the best at weaving among mortals, but claimed she was better than Minerva.
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Jun 12, 2014 12:31
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The version I was told is that Arachne's weaving skill was a gift from Athena, but she went and told everyone who would list, "Nope, all me, no divine gifts here."
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Jun 12, 2014 21:47
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I'm glad Jesus Christ killed all the old Helenic gods because let's be honest, they were assholes.
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Jun 12, 2014 23:16
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Berke Negri posted:I'm glad Jesus Christ killed all the old Helenic gods because let's be honest, they were assholes. That was my favorite part of The Last Temptation of Christ.
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Jun 12, 2014 23:21
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LordSaturn posted:The version I was told is that Arachne's weaving skill was a gift from Athena, but she went and told everyone who would list, "Nope, all me, no divine gifts here." That should be taken as implied, if it isn't explicitly stated in the Met, for basically every version. In the ancient context, if you're good at something that a god does, the god had to get themselves involved to a greater or lesser degree.
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Jun 13, 2014 00:30
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Why did Flavius become such a popular name in the late Roman empire? Seriously, especially for consuls. I'm on the Wikipedia List of Roman consuls and you get the occasional Flavius up to the end of the third century. Then suddenly it's Flavius everywhere. I'm starting to wonder if someone on Wikipedia is playing a trick on me.
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Jun 14, 2014 04:51
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Names are trendy and Romans only had like ten given names so I guess it's inevitable.
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Jun 14, 2014 05:10
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Berke Negri posted:I'm glad Jesus Christ killed all the old Helenic gods because let's be honest, they were assholes. Sort of off-topic, but arent there actually groups of people who still worship old Roman/Hellenistic gods? I recall earlier in this thread of a picture of these cosplayers chilling at the ruins of this ancient temple, and the accompanying post saying they were actually praying to Jupiter there or whatever. Imagine if, like, Christianity never took off and churches were all temples to a dedicated god from antiquity. Religious conservatives in the US and europe would be whining about all the "Muslims infiltrating our government and threatening our JUPITER-GIVEN RIGHTS by instating sharia law, our law makers aught to recheck their auspices!  "
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Jun 14, 2014 05:48
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Imapanda posted:Sort of off-topic, but arent there actually groups of people who still worship old Roman/Hellenistic gods? I recall earlier in this thread of a picture of these cosplayers chilling at the ruins of this ancient temple, and the accompanying post saying they were actually praying to Jupiter there or whatever. Zoroastrians, buddy.
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Jun 14, 2014 06:03
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Zorastrians are a legitmate religious minority in the Mideast, there's apparently a decent amount in America. Norse/Hellenic neopagans are either hippies or racists.
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Jun 14, 2014 06:31
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Octy posted:Why did Flavius become such a popular name in the late Roman empire? Lots of blonde babies?
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Jun 14, 2014 06:47
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In the same vein (and speaking of hippies), every solstice, the people of Britain are reminded that people still purport to be Druids. And that their leader renamed himself Arthur Uther Pendragon, believes himself to be an actual reincarnation of the legendary king, bought a sword he named Excalibur, brought that same sword to court to swear his oaths on it, and has been proclaimed 'Raised Druid King of Britain' by various neo-Druid orders.
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Jun 14, 2014 08:55
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Imapanda posted:Imagine if, like, Christianity never took off and churches were all temples to a dedicated god from antiquity. Religious conservatives in the US and europe would be whining about all the "Muslims infiltrating our government and threatening our JUPITER-GIVEN RIGHTS by instating sharia law, our law makers aught to recheck their auspices! Well, it's not the Greek/Roman pantheon but the new prime minister of India belongs to a Hindu nationalist party that (among other things) supported demolishing a 16th century mosque that had been built on top of a Hindu temple in order to rebuild that temple. And, you know, targeting Muslims in a pogrom or two. Generally they're defining India as being naturally Hindu and rejecting foreign influences, meaning Islam and also supposedly "Western" notions like not being raging misogynists or homophobes (the latter means supporting a section of the penal code written by the British in 1860  ).Basically it's the same bullshit about "This is a Christian nation!  ", but with a veneer of Hinduism being used instead to support the bigotry.
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Jun 14, 2014 09:39
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StashAugustine posted:Zorastrians are a legitmate religious minority in the Mideast, there's apparently a decent amount in America. Norse/Hellenic neopagans are either hippies or racists. Nah, I mean if there were no Christians, (therefore no Nestorians), there wouldn't be Muslims in the first place. So his scenario can't have Muslims, it needs the Zoroastrians the Muslims replaced. *sperg*
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Jun 14, 2014 10:24
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Berke Negri posted:I'm glad Jesus Christ killed all the old Helenic gods because let's be honest, they were assholes. Imapanda posted:Sort of off-topic, but arent there actually groups of people who still worship old Roman/Hellenistic gods? I recall earlier in this thread of a picture of these cosplayers chilling at the ruins of this ancient temple, and the accompanying post saying they were actually praying to Jupiter there or whatever.
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Jun 14, 2014 10:47
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StashAugustine posted:Zorastrians are a legitmate religious minority in the Mideast, there's apparently a decent amount in America. Norse/Hellenic neopagans are either hippies or racists. They're not quite the same as the Roman/Hellenic religion though. I guess it comes from the same vague "Indo-European sky god" tradition that Jupiter does, but then, so does Elohim.
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Jun 14, 2014 13:41
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I think it'd be hard to find many religions that don't eventually go back to/involve some sort of sky god tradition. It's such an obvious place for religious belief to begin and people's brains are all basically the same.
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Jun 14, 2014 13:45
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I saw some actual worshippers at Elusinia last month. One laid flowers at the altar to Hades and others had clearly left offerings in the hollow nearby.
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Jun 14, 2014 14:40
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Why do people go back to those gods? They were all giant assholes. I don't get the motivation.
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Jun 14, 2014 14:50
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Grand Fromage posted:Why do people go back to those gods? They were all giant assholes. I don't get the motivation. Even now, Sithrak oils the spit. Warning: very  comics besides this one.
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Jun 14, 2014 14:59
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Zopotantor posted:Even now, Sithrak oils the spit. This is a reasonable depiction of Greek and Roman gods. Also a good summary of why things like Christianity were appealing enough to take off.
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Jun 14, 2014 15:06
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Grand Fromage posted:Why do people go back to those gods? They were all giant assholes. I don't get the motivation.
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Jun 14, 2014 15:07
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Oberleutnant posted:To piss their dads off, probably. YOU'RE NOT MY REAL JUPITER
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Jun 14, 2014 15:07
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Oberleutnant posted:To piss their dads off, probably. That is also why people love Julian. Despite him being kind of a giant gently caress up.
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Jun 14, 2014 15:18
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Grand Fromage posted:Why do people go back to those gods? They were all giant assholes. I don't get the motivation. To be fair, Hades was pretty mellow compared to the other gods.
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Jun 14, 2014 20:11
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How strong were regional accents in the Roman world? I understand that Ancient Greek had dialects up the wazoo like Aeolic, Ionian, Attic, etc., but I haven't heard jack about Latin in Antiquity. Given the legions being a basis for some settlement and folks being shuffled around everywhere, how localized did dialects get-- was it something more general like all the folks in Gallia sounding sort of distinct from folks in Italy, or that Romans and Florentines or folks from Lyons and Paris sounded clearly different from one another?
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Jun 14, 2014 22:37
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Grand Fromage posted:Why do people go back to those gods? They were all giant assholes. I don't get the motivation. Part of it is tied into old essentialist post-Romantic thought that in order to truly access the memories and traditions of your ancestors you need to sweep away what's been laid on top until you reach the 'pure' core of that culture's beliefs. The other part is the same sort of thing as a rejection of modernity, embracing the environment and the noble savage myth. The modern world and it's institutions have divorced themselves so far from nature and what makes us happy that we need to return to a time when we were more noble and in tune with nature. The belief systems of this period, because of when they were practised are defacto better than current theology.
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Jun 14, 2014 23:49
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Grand Fromage posted:Why do people go back to those gods? They were all giant assholes. I don't get the motivation. Uh dude have you seen what Dionysus does to people who deny he's a god? 
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Jun 15, 2014 02:11
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Ofaloaf posted:How strong were regional accents in the Roman world? I understand that Ancient Greek had dialects up the wazoo like Aeolic, Ionian, Attic, etc., but I haven't heard jack about Latin in Antiquity. Given the legions being a basis for some settlement and folks being shuffled around everywhere, how localized did dialects get-- was it something more general like all the folks in Gallia sounding sort of distinct from folks in Italy, or that Romans and Florentines or folks from Lyons and Paris sounded clearly different from one another? I dunno if there's any way to get back to that, since little of local accented language would've been written down. From knowledge of other places/times you can assume there was a lot of regional variation, and of course all the Romance languages are the result of that variation left alone for a while. I would suspect the level of variation was less than the medieval world since people traveled around and moved homes much more often, but it'd still be huge compared to a modern country.
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Jun 15, 2014 03:27
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Agean90 posted:To be fair, Hades was pretty mellow compared to the other gods. idk he nearly killed all of humanity by stealing Persephone from Demeter.
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Jun 15, 2014 07:51
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Octy posted:Why did Flavius become such a popular name in the late Roman empire? Seriously, especially for consuls. I'm on the Wikipedia List of Roman consuls and you get the occasional Flavius up to the end of the third century. Then suddenly it's Flavius everywhere. I'm starting to wonder if someone on Wikipedia is playing a trick on me. I looked at that list, and I think it's the fourth century equivalent of Edward or Jacob or whatever. The Neo-Flavian dynasty probably inspired most of them.
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Jun 15, 2014 10:38
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I looked at that list, and I think it's the fourth century equivalent of Edward or Jacob or whatever. The Neo-Flavian dynasty probably inspired most of them. I hope so! Flavius is an okay name, but I prefer Tiberius. 
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Jun 15, 2014 11:54
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Agean90 posted:To be fair, Hades was pretty mellow compared to the other gods. Agamemnon posted:Why do we loathe Hades more than any god, if not because he is so adamantine and unyielding?
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Jun 15, 2014 12:04
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