Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

on the left posted:

It seems fairly likely that governments will continue the zero interest rate policies barring a massive shock to the financial system. If there's a huge shock, expect major changes anyways, so go nuts.

It is a fact that:
1) we are seeing the absolute worst rent/price ratios in the world
2) the canadian economy is shrinking, save for Alberta
3) several cities in eastern canada are registering record highs in unsold housing inventory
4) the cmhc has record levels of insured debt on their books
5) there is an unequivocal correlation between the rise in housing prices in canada and the loosening of mortgage lending rules, especially since 2008
6) canadians' household debt levels are sitting at an all time high, even higher than american households in 2007

So even if the boc continued to zirp itself in to the next decade, would you say now is the time to buy?

# ? Jun 18, 2014 06:26

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# ? May 13, 2024 08:58

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

JawKnee posted:

I get the impression your 25 year old self has never rented. But I also think you're a dunce most of the time, so don't worry too much about it.

Yes, I have. My rent increased every year, I was only allowed to smoke because you aren't allowed to prohibit it in Quebec, and I had to leave a key with another person (the landlord), who, although technically not allowed to violate my privacy without notice, could do it with notice or any time it was deemed an "emergency." All my friends who are renting in Calgary have suffered obscene rent increases over the past few years, and quite a few have been given the heave-ho without cause, because the landlord wanted to sell or do renovations. Looking for a place? You better look really trustworthy (white, preferably married, and not too young), because 20 people have already seen the same place, and there's around a 1% vacancy rate! EDIT: Not to mention the shady poo poo that the big corporate landlords pull around here. Boardwalk, one of the major companies, routinely breaks the law with regards to things like deposits, but you'd have to hire a lawyer to fight them, and they'll probably blackball you from all their properties (officially or otherwise).

Long-term rental in Calgary is a major pain in the rear end, and probably not that economically advantageous, much as home ownership appears to be in Vancouver at the moment. Why don't we stop pretending that the market conditions in all regions are the same? I'm not trying to convince you that buying a place in Vancouver is a good idea (it's pretty clearly not, given price-to-rent ratios and such), or that taking on more debt than you can afford because of current interest rates is a good idea.

PT6A fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Jun 18, 2014

# ? Jun 18, 2014 06:27

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

Aren't rental properties in calgary suffering from such a crunch right now due to the floods? Or is the lack of rental property a long-lived problem there?

# ? Jun 18, 2014 06:33

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

JawKnee posted:

Aren't rental properties in calgary suffering from such a crunch right now due to the floods? Or is the lack of rental property a long-lived problem there?

Calgary's population is growing significantly from foreigners and intraprovincial migration and the unemployment rate is the lowest in Canada. I'm surprised the housing situation isn't more dire but that's probably because it's such a loving shithole to live in.

# ? Jun 18, 2014 06:39

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

JawKnee posted:

Aren't rental properties in calgary suffering from such a crunch right now due to the floods? Or is the lack of rental property a long-lived problem there?

The floods certainly didn't help matters, but there's also massive migration. Even with massive, ill-advised and poorly planned new communities springing up in the middle of Buttfuck Nowhere, the population growth is a major problem to contend with. Rental vacancies are basically nil, and unless you have a major factor in your favour, you aren't going to find a good place in a decent location for anything close to affordable.

# ? Jun 18, 2014 06:45

ocrumsprug: Sep 23, 2010; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Throatwarbler posted:

I kind of still read this thread because I kind of share the view that house prices will probably fall, but most of the posts here are some variant of "the only moral privatized profit/socialized cost is MY privatized profit/socialized cost" or "look at how some Chinese people are dumb assholes, the country should only allow in whites who have never been dumb or assholes ever.". This thread has pretty much convinced me to never go to Vancouver, ever, much less live there, regardless of how much houses cost.

We certainly love our hyperbolic strawmen in this thread, so this is a good post.

Vancouver is actually not a particularly racist place, however the social fabric is really starting to get warped by real estate. I expect the eventual crash will exaberate that and for some really ugly stuff to bubble to the surface. (You catch glimpses of it in this thread.)

# ? Jun 18, 2014 07:20

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

ocrumsprug posted:

Now, that said I think I missed why we want to nationalize the banks?

It worked for Sweden in the 90's. The crisis was salvaged and the banks were later sold back into private care.

# ? Jun 18, 2014 12:13

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

PT6A posted:

The floods certainly didn't help matters, but there's also massive migration. Even with massive, ill-advised and poorly planned new communities springing up in the middle of Buttfuck Nowhere, the population growth is a major problem to contend with. Rental vacancies are basically nil, and unless you have a major factor in your favour, you aren't going to find a good place in a decent location for anything close to affordable.

This was part of the reason we bought, it wasn't necessarily that the vacancy rate was as bad as it was (its been poo poo for a while) but the perception is that it was worse allowed rental owners to increase rent and become way more stringent than normal.

As bad as it is trying to find something close to affordable in a decent location try doing it with a pet.

# ? Jun 18, 2014 13:32

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

There's a significant shortage of low-priced rentals in large parts of Quebec; all everyone's buying is single family homes and "luxury" condos. Some condos get rented out, but nobody's building those six apartments apartment buildings anymore so...

# ? Jun 18, 2014 14:00

cougar cub: Jun 28, 2004

JawKnee posted:

Aren't rental properties in calgary suffering from such a crunch right now due to the floods? Or is the lack of rental property a long-lived problem there?

Bit of a long-term problem that Nenshi is trying to change. There are problems with the rules governing secondary suites, which means that most of them are being run illegally or not at all.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Editorial+Lack+suite+success/9942211/story.html

# ? Jun 18, 2014 15:21

Danny LaFever: Dec 29, 2008; Grimey Drawer

Cultural Imperial posted:

2) the canadian economy is shrinking, save for Alberta

Is Saskatchewan shrinking? Because holy hell is Saskatoon building like gangbusters.

# ? Jun 18, 2014 15:54

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Danny LaFever posted:

Is Saskatchewan shrinking? Because holy hell is Saskatoon building like gangbusters.

http://regina.ctvnews.ca/mobile/saskatchewan-s-economic-growth-to-shrink-in-2014-report-1.1738187

# ? Jun 18, 2014 16:29

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Cultural Imperial posted:

I don't want to bail your stupid rear end out while you live high on the loving hog like a motherfucker baller leasing out beemers and poo poo, like every loving vancouverite does.

Cultural Imperial posted:

And you really shouldn't. Vancouver is a nice place but the people are absolute scum. I say this as someone who grew up in Vancouver and is now living in Seattle. God, the Americans might subscribe to some loving dumb rear end politics but at least they're nice people.

Cultural Imperial posted:

I have to explain to friends and family that just because you rent, doesn't mean you're homeless. I can't seem to convince the majority of my social circle of this fact.

I think your problem is that you just have awful friends. Have you tried getting better friends? :shobon:

# ? Jun 18, 2014 18:13

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

loving lol

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/BL-SJB-14533

quote:

“There aren’t many positive Asian representations in the media,” Mr. Li said by phone from Vancouver. “I have a chance to put a different perspective” — one he hopes will be a mash-up of “Rich Kids of Beverly Hills” and “The Kardashians.”

# ? Jun 18, 2014 20:26

ZShakespeare: Jul 20, 2003; The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose!

THC posted:

I think your problem is that you just have awful friends. Have you tried getting better friends?

You reap what you sew :unsmigghh:

# ? Jun 18, 2014 20:39

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

E: Thought I was in CanPol. :ughh:

Rime fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jun 18, 2014

# ? Jun 18, 2014 21:02

Professor Shark: May 22, 2012

So did Mulcair.

"I'll change what Harper did back" has been the go-to strategy for both parties it seems for a number of issues.

# ? Jun 18, 2014 21:15

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Well, good to see I'll be more or less coerced into voting for loving Harper again, because every other party has clearly indicated they don't want my vote. I was looking forward to being able to vote Liberal, too...

# ? Jun 18, 2014 21:34

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

ZShakespeare posted:

You reap what you sew

Sow, not sew.

# ? Jun 18, 2014 21:35

Bleu: Jul 19, 2006

I'm glad that Trudeau is eventually bumbling his way to the correct position on most policies. "The opposite of Harper" is actually a pretty comprehensive progressive platform, really.

Was this supposed to be in Canpol?

# ? Jun 18, 2014 21:55

Professor Shark: May 22, 2012

Bleu posted:

Was this supposed to be in Canpol?

That's where I thought I was... the lines seem to get blurred sometimes.

PT6A posted:

Well, good to see I'll be more or less coerced into voting for loving Harper again, because every other party has clearly indicated they don't want my vote. I was looking forward to being able to vote Liberal, too...

You should write them a letter so that they can get in on the joy of reading your posts.

Professor Shark fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jun 18, 2014

# ? Jun 18, 2014 22:01

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

http://www.economist.com/blogs/amer...he_b_c_bolthole

quote:

PROPERTY speculation in Vancouver has a new meaning these days: wondering what exactly is driving up prices in the least affordable housing market in North America (see chart). The average sale price of a single-family detached home is now around C$1m ($920,000). Over the past five years, Vancouver homes worth C$1m-2m have doubled in value, according to tax-assessment records.

That puts property beyond the reach of most local residents. A Vancouver family earned a paltry $68,970 total median income in 2011, putting them 23rd out of the 28 major cities in Canada. Although Canadian consumers are taking on more debt, credit growth cannot explain the price-to-income multiples in Vancouver. The likely culprit is an influx of foreign, and especially Chinese, capital, as people move money from the mainland to a safe and pretty spot.

But exactly how much of Vancouver�s property market is being fuelled by foreigners, and how rapidly they might disappear, is uncertain. Although there are data on investor immigrants�those who have at least $800,000 to invest in order to fast track their application to get Canadian citizenship�there isn�t information on where they are investing their money or how much goes into property.

So analysts have had to look for patterns themselves. One study monitored electricity bills as a way of figuring out how many high-end city-centre condominiums sit empty most of the year. That analysis led to the conclusion that foreign investors own 8 out of every 100 apartments in pricey areas in downtown Vancouver. Another survey tracked where municipal assessments of property values were sent and found that less than 1% was mailed overseas to China. Yet another report counted mainland Chinese-sounding names on sales records for luxury homes that were priced at C$3m and more: 74% of the buyers ticked this box.

Another option is to look at macro-level data. Robin Wiebe of the Conference Board of Canada, a research outfit, has charted the links between China�s economic health and the local housing market in Vancouver, and found significant correlations between China�s real GDP growth and growth in housing prices. Urban planner Andy Yan, who sits on the city�s planning committee, says that understanding the impact of foreign investors on real estate is like searching for the Higgs particle. �Everyone knows it�s there, but it�s proving it that�s the problem. We know it�s not wage growth; and it isn�t the economy here. All we know is that in Vancouver, real estate has been de-coupled from the local economy.�

If so, prices may soon drop back. The number of investor immigrants has dropped since 2012; earlier this year, the Canadian government axed the programme entirely. That should soon give analysts more clues to the mystery of the Vancouver housing market.

# ? Jun 19, 2014 05:20

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

http://www.scmp.com/comment/blogs/article/1535465/vancouver-condo-king-bob-rennie-race-real-estate-and-david-fing-suzuki

quote:

Canada�s pre-eminent public scientist and environmentalist has had a new title bestowed upon him, to add to his PhD and Order of Canada: �David f***ing Suzuki�.

It comes courtesy of Bob Rennie, Vancouver�s �condo king� and the city�s most successful real estate marketer. The epithet was contained in what Rennie called his �private notes� for a recent speech to the city�s Urban Development Institute, although the obscenity was not actually spoken when Rennie discussed Suzuki in his address.

The speech was delivered on May 15, but the South China Morning Post only recently obtained a copy of Rennie�s notes with the eye-catching �f***ing� notation. Rennie, who is routinely ranked among the most powerful figures in Vancouver, told me he wasn�t happy about the notes being made public - but he wasn�t backing down from his criticism of Suzuki either.

Rennie�s targeting of the co-founder of the David Suzuki Foundation came in light of comments the environmentalist made last year to the French newspaper, L�Express. Suzuki said Canada was �full�, and lambasted Ottawa�s immigration policies for �plundering� poorer nations of future leaders in the name of promoting Canadian economic growth.

In his speech, Rennie said �sensational� headlines about Chinese immigration and real estate prices in Vancouver were �bordering on racism�. He said Canada needed to be wary not to repeat policies such as the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1923, which effectively barred Chinese immigration for almost 25 years.

�Fortunately Mr Suzuki, we all have friends whose lives are better because they moved here�let�s be very careful that we don�t repeat patterns of the past,� he said.

Rennie also used his speech to relate an anecdote about how his firm inadvertently sent out Chinese-language marketing material to the tony neighbourhood of Point Grey, and in the process �sparked racist responses, touched nerves of ignorance and brought out stereotypical reactions that fuel the David Suzukis of the world�.

He didn�t quite call Suzuki a racist, but he came quite close. Rennie told me on Tuesday that he had never met Suzuki, but �I don�t like to hear comments that become elitist, that have a potential to be racist. I don�t know whether David is racist�. Either way, Rennie said he could not give Suzuki a pass.

�People like David Suzuki have very, very important voices in Canada that carry well beyond our borders,� Rennie said. �When David speaks, he speaks for all of us, because he has that power. And when David says �we�re full�, I am appalled, and I am allowed to be.�

Vancouver�s status as the world�s most popular destination for millionaire migrants and its ranking as the second most unaffordable housing market in the world make for a combustible conversation, and Rennie isn�t alone in raising concerns about the potential for racism. But as a guiding voice to the city�s political and business elite, his opinions carry immense weight.

The founder of Rennie Marketing Systems said the topic of immigration as it related to housing density and affordability is a �worthwhile discussion�. �[But] the problem is that we all go for the low-hanging fruit, and the sensational comments. That�s why I always break out all our sales, I take out the top 20 per cent that have nothing to do with local incomes. They are for rich guys and foreign money, and when you look at the remaining inventory of 80 per cent, it actually fits in with local income,� Rennie said.

�You know and I know that we�re not the most expensive place to live in the world. Yet we all dine out on that statement, because if you relate all sales just to income, it is the most expensive, and then we blame it on foreign money. I try and dissect it out so that we have rational discussions about it. But it�s not what everybody wants. They want sensation.�

In his comments to L�Express, Suzuki � whose foundation did not respond to requests for comment - praised Canada for its large intake of refugees. But Rennie wasn�t buying it. �So let�s just bring in who he wants? Wonderful. Wonderful. Not allowed, I�m sorry,� he said. �My worry is that people are never exclusionary just in one part of their lives. It�s rampant. Nobody is prejudiced in one part of their life.�

# ? Jun 19, 2014 05:24

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Heh. Sometimes I read those " recount your meeting with a celebrity" type threads and the only thing I remember from any of them is that every single person who has ever met David Suzuki in real life says he's a horrendous douchebag. Guess he fits right in in Vancouver!

# ? Jun 19, 2014 06:23

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Throatwarbler posted:

Heh. Sometimes I read those " recount your meeting with a celebrity" type threads and the only thing I remember from any of them is that every single person who has ever met David Suzuki in real life says he's a horrendous douchebag. Guess he fits right in in Vancouver!

I've got friends and friends of friends in ocean science, genetics, and general environmental movements. All universally reported that he's a real nasty piece of work. Pretty sad since his media personality is such a passionate and kind science-environmentalist grandpa. But it's just that, a character he plays on TV or in interviews. If you're not of some use to him to get his message out or make him money you're worse than some dog poo poo he stepped in.

# ? Jun 19, 2014 06:45

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Baronjutter posted:

I've got friends and friends of friends in ocean science, genetics, and general environmental movements. All universally reported that he's a real nasty piece of work. Pretty sad since his media personality is such a passionate and kind science-environmentalist grandpa. But it's just that, a character he plays on TV or in interviews. If you're not of some use to him to get his message out or make him money you're worse than some dog poo poo he stepped in.

Having spoken with people who've dealt with him directly, I can confirm this. It might be a common thing for all these well-respected, popular Canadians, because I hear from people who work for the City of Calgary that Naheed Nenshi can be a miserable little tyrant if he doesn't get total agreement. Put on smiles and the friendly act for the cameras, all the while being a prick when no one's watching... I wonder if that's better or worse than someone like Harper, who's just a prick all the time (although possibly a nice person in private; who knows?).

# ? Jun 19, 2014 06:50

Professor Shark: May 22, 2012

My sister spent an evening (at a banquet, though the way I wrote it at first would be a good news story) with Peter Mansbridge and said that he's pretty nice, in a very bumbling grandfather confused what is happening around him kind of way.

Disappointed to hear Suzuki isn't a nice man.

# ? Jun 19, 2014 10:10

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

PT6A posted:

Having spoken with people who've dealt with him directly, I can confirm this. It might be a common thing for all these well-respected, popular Canadians, because I hear from people who work for the City of Calgary that Naheed Nenshi can be a miserable little tyrant if he doesn't get total agreement. Put on smiles and the friendly act for the cameras, all the while being a prick when no one's watching... I wonder if that's better or worse than someone like Harper, who's just a prick all the time (although possibly a nice person in private; who knows?).

This is not restricted to celebrities, it's pretty well true of all Canadians. All my life I've seen everyone around me be nice and polite and friendly to someone and then, as soon as that person isn't around, poo poo talk them like the persons very existence is offensive. It's always done so casually, too. The stereotype of the "Polite Canadian" is just hiding the utter shitbag we all are behind closed doors. :shrug:

# ? Jun 19, 2014 16:00

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

Romeo Dallaire and Chris Hadfield are, in fact, just really nice people so theory destroyed I guess.

# ? Jun 19, 2014 16:24

peter banana: Sep 2, 2008; Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

Look we're all going to have to accept that Americans are much friendlier on a day-to-day basis than we are. They just are. Must come from having an identifiable culture :smith:

# ? Jun 19, 2014 16:25

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

peter banana posted:

Look we're all going to have to accept that Americans are much friendlier on a day-to-day basis than we are. They just are. Must come from having an identifiable culture

Nah, it's because they all carry guns. Don't be a dick to people who can shoot you in the dick and all.

# ? Jun 19, 2014 16:26

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

FrozenVent posted:

Nah, it's because they all carry guns. Don't be a dick to people who can shoot you in the dick and all.

No I really don't think this is the case and it's just another myth self righteous Canadians love to tell themselves. Another one Canadians love to believe is that American tourists are all fat, stupid annoying and obnoxious. Ever been to a Mexican or Cuban resort? While living in London (friends from undergrad notwithstanding) I found Canadians to be insufferable douches. Most of the friends I made were American expats.

I think the American disposition is one where they mostly come from a position of confidence and the knowledge (whether it's correct or not) that persistence and labour often result in good outcomes. They're not afflicted with an inferiority complex like Canadians.

# ? Jun 19, 2014 17:21

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

Pull up thread pull up noooooo~

# ? Jun 19, 2014 17:26

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Old article that just popped up on Twitter.

http://m.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1247617/hk-vancouver-and-back-migrants-who-came-home-home

quote:

Gilbert Li is as Canadian as maple syrup, poutine and his beloved Vancouver Canucks.

The 36-year-old IT specialist for a major bank even worked from home to watch the Canucks recent ill-fated run in the National Hockey League playoffs for the Stanley Cup. "Horrible," he says of the team's clean-sweep elimination by the San Jose Sharks this month.

He loves Vancouver's clean air and open spaces, and its food scene. His mother, relatives and some of his best friends live in the west coast Canadian city.

But for the past eight years, Li has called Hong Kong home. "I was always thinking it would be just a year or two," Li says of his 2004 return to his birthplace.

Li migrated to Canada with his family in 1983, but recrossed the Pacific to carve out a life in the SAR, drawn by a complex blend of opportunity, economics, personal ties and love.

It is no exaggeration to consider Hong Kong an extension of Canada in Asia. It is equally true for residents of Hong Kong to consider Canada their natural home in North America

He has plenty of company; an analysis by the South China Morning Post last week found that more than 65,000 Hong Kong-born immigrants to Canada had probably returned to the SAR between 1996 and 2011. Go back another 15 years, and the number of participants in this unprecedented wave of return migration swells to more than 153,000.

They represent a large component of Hong Kong's middle and moneyed classes - many having migrated to Canada under wealth-attraction schemes. Many returned with educations and English skills acquired in Canada's best schools and universities.

But the Hong Kong government has failed to acknowledge this vast community because it does not officially recognise their Canadian identity out of deference to China's nationality laws, which preclude dual citizenship. Ottawa, however, is well aware of their presence and impact.

John Baird. Photo: Nora Tam"With 295,000 Canadian citizens in Hong Kong, this is truly Canada's city in Asia," Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird told the Asia Society in Hong Kong in March, citing an estimate based on a 2011 telephone poll. He continued: "It is no exaggeration to consider Hong Kong an extension of Canada in Asia. It is equally true for residents of Hong Kong to consider Canada their natural home in North America."

When Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper visited Hong Kong last November to sign a tax treaty with the territory, his government's media unit underlined its importance by citing the "estimated 300,000 Canadians" in the SAR. In contrast, the Hong Kong government told journalists there were only 16,554.

Such sensitivities matter little to those like Li, who readily embrace their Canadian nationality while living thousands of kilometres away, swapping the maple leaf for the bauhinia.

Li recalls little about Hong Kong before he migrated. He remembers going to kindergarten - "it was on a hill; I think it was on Garden Road" - and looking back he realises his family was "pretty well off". "It's not like I had to go take the school bus … We had a driver who would take me to kindergarten, so I remember that," he said. "We lived in a two-storey apartment in Pok Fu Lam." When the family moved to Canada "it was kind of a trend" for middle-class and wealthy Hongkongers, Li said, spurred by business reasons in his family's case. The choice came down to San Francisco or Vancouver, but an easier immigration process in Canada won out. Li's mother was also concerned her two young sons might be drafted into the US military. Uncles and cousins - and more than 300,000 other Hongkongers in the 1980s and 90s - eventually joined them.

Li grew up, went to school and the Simon Fraser University and became thoroughly Canadian in the process. But when he graduated from business and computer science studies, hiring froze in North America in the wake of the September 11 attacks. So he struck out for Hong Kong, where he had last lived when he was five.

It's a typical story, according to University of British Columbia geographer Daniel Hiebert. He said his numerous Hong Kong students (UBC has been jokingly dubbed the University of a Billion Chinese) "have a very fluid imagination" about their futures, with some saying they might continue to study in Canada, look for opportunities in Hong Kong or end up working in both places.

"They are living their lives in accordance with all of these considerations: Where do I go to school? Where do I work? Where is my family?" said Hiebert, who has studied reverse migration and advised the Canadian government on the phenomenon. "All of our previous models have tended to treat people as staying in one place at one time, but that may be changing. Now, you can see these people really living in different places at any one time."

Hiebert said that accurately understanding the scale of reverse migration was crucial across the gamut of social policy. "It has an impact, say, on your education policy," he said. "How do you predict how many kids are in the education system when they might spend one year in Hong Kong and then be in Canada the next, then in Hong Kong after that?"

Also among the ramifications of this cross-Pacific lifestyle are gyrations of the property market, particularly in a relatively smaller city like Vancouver. The post-handover rush back to Hong Kong, coupled with the Asian financial crisis, coincided with significant price falls in Vancouver. "It was evident that not only was an exodus occurring, but also that offshore investors were liquidating their Vancouver holdings to offset financial losses in Asia," wrote David Ley in Millionaire Migrants, which addresses the impact of East Asian migration on Vancouver.

A view of Vancouver. The post-handover rush back to Hong Kong coincided with significant falls in its real estate prices. Photo: Reuters

Researcher Nuowen Deng of Simon Fraser University found in a 2007 study of returnees that the safety net of "Canada's political stability and Canadian citizenship" was a key motivation for many Hongkongers when they decided to migrate. This is reflected by immigration numbers, which exploded after the 1984 Sino-British joint declaration on Hong Kong, then plummeted after the smooth handover in 1997. In 1994, more than 44,000 Hongkongers arrived in Canada; now, the few hundred Hongkongers arriving in Canada each year are far outstripped by the thousands returning.

A Canadian passport and education endows returnees with "greater human capital" in the eyes of employers, Deng said. Canadian citizenship can be acquired after only three years of residency, helping explain the short tenure of many Hong Kong immigrants. Unlike the US, Canada does not tax citizens overseas. Dual Canadian citizenship has clear benefits for recipients, but carries potential downside from a wider perspective.

Andy Yan, an adjunct professor of planning at UBC, said a city like Vancouver risked becoming "a global suburb of Hong Kong - a wonderful place to live and have a vacation home, but you don't do business or make a living there". "Are we at the situation where you have people living here [in Vancouver] but doing a 3,500km commute? For Hong Kong, is it a benefit or a net loss to have these people splitting their time in Vancouver?"

Other potential risks were highlighted in 2006 when Canadian authorities were inundated by thousands of Lebanese-Canadian dual citizens seeking evacuation on Ottawa-funded flights during an outbreak of hostilities between Hezbollah and Israel. "Many of these people had never set foot in Canada" before the Canadian government was asked to rescue them from a warzone, Hiebert said.

Such a dramatic scenario might seem unlikely in Hong Kong, but the incident raises the uncomfortable question of how much responsibility a country should take for non-resident citizens, and whether immigrants who don't intend to stay even deserve passports. "But measuring future intentions is difficult," Hiebert noted.

Li seeks no free ride from the Canadian government. Initially he was working for his father's banking software firm in Hong Kong, flying back and forth to manage the company's Vancouver office. "I was kind of thinking just short term [in Hong Kong], then see how it goes," Li said. Almost a decade later, he's still there, no longer working for his father, but for a major local bank.

Along the way, he reconnected with South Korean Kelly Lee; the couple had dated in Vancouver as students, but Lee moved back to South Korea and was also dividing her time in Hong Kong, where she was working in fashion. They married in 2007 and live in Taikoo Shing.

Although Li said he fits in perfectly in Hong Kong, he does not regard himself as totally local and his Cantonese has a Canadian twang. "When I came back, the first four or five years, all my friends were CBCs [Canadian-born Chinese] or ABCs [American-born Chinese], they were all from overseas. I didn't really have many local friends," he said. "Now it's a mixture. But I used to just hang out with the expats in Lan Kwai Fong. Everyone was pretty Westernised, so it wasn't that big of a difference for me."

He misses the comfortable environment in Vancouver - "Hong Kong is so congested" - and sometimes thinks about moving back, but higher pay and lower taxes, coupled with proximity to his in-laws in South Korea, keep him in Hong Kong.

Socially, he says Vancouver can be dull, a common complaint among young returnees. "One thing good about Hong Kong is it's an international city, a fast-paced city, which I definitely enjoy more than the lifestyle in Vancouver. Whenever I go back I find it can get pretty boring."

Ironically, Vancouver's sky-high property prices, fuelled by waves of Hong Kong then mainland Chinese migration, also help keep Li in Taikoo Shing. Li owned a flat in Hong Kong, but sold it ahead of the most-recent property boom there too. "I missed the boom in both places," he adds with a sigh.

The list of those who have crossed the Pacific twice reads like a who's who of the city's elite

Businessmen Li Ka-shing, Victor Li Tzar-kuoi and Richard Li Tzar-kai

Li Ka-shing is widely credited with inspiring Hong Kong's moneyed classes to move to Vancouver, having purchased a home in the suburb of Oakridge in the 1970s. Both his sons hold Canadian citizenship. The family's links to Canada remain strong, with Li Ka-shing transforming Vancouver's skyline with his purchase of the 1986 Expo site. His Canadian investments also include Husky Energy, of which Victor Li is co-chairman. Victor Li famously tried to bail out the then-bankrupt Air Canada in 2003, though the deal fell through. Richard Li has also touted his Canadian citizenship in bidding for Canadian firms.

Other business figures: Cheng Yu-tung, Pansy and Lawrence Ho, Michael Chan Yue-kwong, David Ting Kwok-ho

Entertainer Leslie Cheung Kwok-wing

The late Canto-pop star and actor was part of the pre-handover rush to Canada. He moved to the city in 1990 and bought a home in Vancouver's elite British Properties neighbourhood which overlooks the ocean. He kept a low profile for five years, secured Canadian citizenship, then re-emerged triumphantly on to the Hong Kong showbiz scene in 1995. After his suicide in 2003, his Canadian fans sponsored a bench in Vancouver's Stanley Park, facing the ocean and the British Properties neighbourhood in the distance.

Other entertainers: Anita Mui Yim-fong, Nicholas Tse Ting-fung, Carina Lau Kar-ling, Charlene Choi, Edison Chen Koon-hei

Sportsman Marco Fu Ka-chun

The snooker star moved to Canada with his family, winning titles in Canada as a teenager before returning to Hong Kong to compete. He won the world amateur championship in 1997 before turning professional, shooting to wider fame in 1998 by beating superstar Ronnie O'Sullivan on his way to the final of the Grand Prix. He lost the final, but eventually won the 2007 Grand Prix, again beating O'Sullivan.

Other sports stars: Ho Man-lok

Beauty queen Carat Cheung

The reigning Miss Hong Kong continues a long tradition of Canadian winners of the pageant, which has outreach shows in Toronto and Vancouver. She was runner up in the 2009 Miss Chinese Vancouver pageant, and hosted a Cantonese-language television show in the city.

Other pageant winners: Kayi Cheung (Miss HK 2007), Aimee Chan (Miss HK 2006), Sonija Kwok (Miss HK 1999), Anne Heung (Miss HK 1998)

Government and UN official Margaret Chan Fung Fu-chun

The director-general of the World Health Organisation, Chan received her medical degrees from the University of Western Ontario in the 1970s, before returning to Hong Kong in 1978 to practise. She went on to serve as Hong Kong's director of health during the 1997 bird flu and 2003 Sars outbreaks. Upon her elevation to the WHO, her identity as the first Chinese national to hold such a prominent position on a UN body was widely cited internationally, although her Canadian citizenship was not. She has defended her right to dual citizenship, but is also believed to hold an SAR passport.

Other officials: Frederick Ma Si-hang, Greg So Kam-leung, Gabriel Leung Cheuk-wai

Legislator Albert Cheng King-hon

The legislative councillor, broadcaster and businessman known as Taipan migrated to Canada as a young man in the 1960s, working as an aircraft engineer, but returned in the 1980s. He was forced to give up his Canadian passport upon seeking election in 2004, but has said he hopes one day to reapply for citizenship, return to Canada and retire. The former legislator has argued that attacking the loyalty of dual nationality holders represents an erosion of the principle of "one country, two systems".

Other lawmakers: Chan Wai-yip, Cyd Ho Sau-lan

# ? Jun 19, 2014 18:07

triplexpac: Mar 24, 2007; Suck it
Two tears in a bucket
And then another thing
I'm not the one they'll try their luck with
Hit hard like brass knuckles
See your face through the turnbuckle dude
I got no love for you

My cousin's hero was David Suzuki until he met him. He was crushed, poor fella.

# ? Jun 19, 2014 21:45

ReindeerF: Apr 20, 2002; Rubber Dinghy Rapids Bro

Rime posted:

This is not restricted to celebrities, it's pretty well true of all Canadians. All my life I've seen everyone around me be nice and polite and friendly to someone and then, as soon as that person isn't around, poo poo talk them like the persons very existence is offensive. It's always done so casually, too. The stereotype of the "Polite Canadian" is just hiding the utter shitbag we all are behind closed doors.

This was one of the most eye-opening reads in a while back when I read it:

https://www.nsfwcorp.com/feature/canada-was-a-cakewalk/

ReindeerF fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jun 19, 2014

# ? Jun 19, 2014 21:56

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

ReindeerF posted:

This was one of the most eye-opening reads in a while back when I read it:

https://www.nsfwcorp.com/feature/canada-was-a-cakewalk/

Yeah, that jives precisely.

I dunno if it's recent trend, or if the Canadian identity has always been a myth, or what. We are not a nice country, we are as racist as the deep south towards First Nations, and we certainly don't help out our fellow man unless forced to (and whine incessantly about it).

This wouldn't be a huge deal without the ego-myths that we wrap ourselves up in, giving off the appearance of being very nice people indeed, and it is quite an unpleasant discovery when you realize how deluded we are as a society. :colbert:

Rime fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jun 19, 2014

# ? Jun 19, 2014 22:42

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

I feel a bit ashamed by that article because cook st. village is my hood. Is there a non-paywall version of that somewhere? Also Victoria is specially a city where it's who you know, not what you know. Also all problems on the island are blamed on outsiders. Housing prices? Rich albertans/ontarians. Homeless? They all come from off the island to enjoy our weather and ample social services that border on spoiling them. Victoria isn't what it used to be, it used to be a polite middle class place ad now those outsiders came and ruined it all. They've been saying that for the last 60 years.

# ? Jun 20, 2014 00:49

Guest2553: Aug 3, 2012

Canadian living in the US for work and I feel way more welcome here than I ever did in the previous 8 years in QC/ON.

We are a pretty deluded bunch in many ways :smith:

# ? Jun 20, 2014 01:17

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# ? May 13, 2024 08:58

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Guest2553 posted:

Canadian living in the US for work and I feel way more welcome here than I ever did in the previous 8 years in QC/ON.

We are a pretty deluded bunch in many ways

Americans are horrible monsters compared to canadians.

# ? Jun 20, 2014 02:26

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

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