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Many people's but not yours. Yours is a thankless but noble battle against injustice, wherever you may find it. Which, owing to our anti-white society, is quite naturally going to most commonly involve bruised white feelings.
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Jun 19, 2014 06:53
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natetimm posted:It's more like: Many people's ideologies revolve around trying to actively gently caress with the people they deem to be "others" and any benefit afforded to society at large is basically just a side-effect of that process. Racism is a cause- not a symptom. It's built in the foundations white supremacism, eurocentrism, and american nationalism. People aren't accidentally racist. It must be an active part of their ideology. It must be a decision that is constantly made, even from ignorance, and acted upon. White anti-racists do lack being black. They lack being oppressed by the white community. But not all doctors need be patients. What is important is whether the suffering is emotionally understood, but if it could be cured.
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Jun 19, 2014 06:53
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My favorite part of the anti-racism movement is how the movement is almost entirely focused on black people, and if Hispanics, Asians, or Jews have problems, they get told to go back to Hymietown.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:04
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on the left posted:something Jesse Jackson said 30 years ago on the dot Devastating, devastating
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Jun 19, 2014 07:07
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SedanChair posted:Devastating, devastating Haha yeah, anti-Semitism is over and social justice advocates set much better example of this than the general population! Just ask them how they feel about Israel and you'll get a lot of enlightened responses that in no way implicitly or explicitly call for the destruction of Israel.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:13
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I don't understand how anyone could deny the fact that systemic racism is literally everywhere in America and is a huge-rear end deal. I mentioned in another thread about how I had to watch my brother explain systemic racism to my nephew since my nephew's grown several inches over the last few months. My nephew is only 15 and lives in a predominantly white area and goes to a predominantly white high school and over the last half year, he's noticed how people look at him when he's hanging out with his mostly white group of friends. It's depressing on so many levels to have to tell a kid that even though you're "equal," you aren't equal. I'm not entirely sure it can be explained to someone who has never experienced it before, but rest assured that everyday racism is something blacks and non-whites deal with constantly. I've seen people cross the street rather than walk on the same sidewalk as me. I've personally spoken with interviewers on the phone then witnessed their surprise at the fact that I'm black (and also the shift in disposition that may entail.) It's incredibly disingenuous to label anyone who cares about racial matters as some sort of tumblr-using white teenager riddled with guilt because they watched 12 Years A Slave. Until people like natetimm realize that discrediting the experiences of an entire ethnic group is a Really lovely Thing, I doubt we'll have any sort of meaningful discussions about this.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:14
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Turns out racism actually is a problem after all, but only when leftists do it. If it weren't for Jesse Jackson, conservatives wouldn't admit that racism exists at all. Thank you Mister Jackson, for opening their eyes. Seriously guys, keep following "don't generalize about whites, that's True Racism" with "a progressive said a thing once, leftism discredited forever". Pack it up CRAilures, it's all tainted now. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 07:17
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VitalSigns posted:Turns out racism actually is a problem after all, but only when leftists do it. It doesn't really matter what conservatives do, if you are a self-professed anti-racist, nothing racist should come out of your mouth.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:21
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on the left posted:Haha yeah, anti-Semitism is over and social justice advocates set much better example of this than the general population! Just ask them how they feel about Israel and you'll get a lot of enlightened responses that in no way implicitly or explicitly call for the destruction of Israel. Israel is an illegitimate state, it should be rubbed out. No Israelis should be rubbed out or made to leave the country, though. Nice conflation, typical of insane fundamentalist reactionaries whose only use for Jews is to dance in the barbecue of Megiddo as Jesus returns to earth. e: 5'd thread
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Jun 19, 2014 07:22
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Vanderdeath posted:I don't understand how anyone could deny the fact that systemic racism is literally everywhere in America and is a huge-rear end deal. I mentioned in another thread about how I had to watch my brother explain systemic racism to my nephew since my nephew's grown several inches over the last few months. My nephew is only 15 and lives in a predominantly white area and goes to a predominantly white high school and over the last half year, he's noticed how people look at him when he's hanging out with his mostly white group of friends. Uh, I'm not? Quit putting words in my mouth. I know drat well racism exists and I'm not discrediting anyone's experiences.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:23
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on the left posted:It doesn't really matter what conservatives do, if you are a self-professed anti-racist, nothing racist should come out of your mouth. Jesse Jackson is one person, not the entire black community. I know where you're trying to go with this concern trolling (anti-racists being the "real racists"). It doesn't work. There's zero foundation in it. If you want to remotely be legitimate, stop conflating the views of the anti-racist communities by character assassinating someone.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:25
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Job Truniht posted:Jesse Jackson is one person, not the entire black community. I know where you're trying to go with this concern trolling (anti-racists being the "real racists"). It doesn't work. There's zero foundation in it. If you want to remotely be legitimate, stop conflating the views of the anti-racist communities by character assassinating someone. I've seen the black community turn up for protests against Hispanic and Asian-owned businesses that were explicitly racialized in terms of "We don't want them in our community". I've heard the same happening for jewish people, especially in NYC and doubly so when talking about Hasids.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:29
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on the left posted:It doesn't really matter what conservatives do, if you are a self-professed anti-racist, nothing racist should come out of your mouth. Yes yes, and as long as Jesse Jackson exists, you can point to him and never have to address the real harms of white racism so long as you hold onto your hurt feelings decades later. How convenient. Edit: Haha wow "B-but blacks are more racist!  "natetimm posted:Uh, I'm not? Quit putting words in my mouth. I know drat well racism exists and I'm not discrediting anyone's experiences. Right, that's what your black friends are for! Vander's nephew may think he has it bad in his racist neighborhood, but that's only because he's never read tumblr!
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Jun 19, 2014 07:33
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More than a couple of my black friends and co-workers are homophobic as hell but I don't really think that diminishes the effect of racism they have experienced. I actually got the "gays are demonic" speech from one of them recently. I do think that when people who desire to be the mouthpiece or front man for any kind of movement get caught doing it, it hurts their movement. Jesse Jackson hasn't really been relevant in years, though. He's old enough that at this point we're trying to pin a set of ethics on him that's like 4 or 5 generations later than his own. Despite his faults he has been an overall net good for blacks and society in general though. If you want to start picking everyone apart Gandhi wasn't especially tolerant of homosexuality either.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:38
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VitalSigns posted:Yes yes, and as long as Jesse Jackson exists, you can point to him and never have to address the real harms of white racism so long as you hold onto your hurt feelings decades later. How convenient. I don't get it, do you think that all racism is bad, or do you prioritize racism based on some sort of oppression olympics system? It seems like the anti-racist modus operandi is to say "I hate racism", then post a bunch of edgy "kill white people" comments and ignore any racism that won't provide sufficient oneupsmanship against wrongthinkers.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:38
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on the left posted:I've seen the black community turn up for protests against Hispanic and Asian-owned businesses that were explicitly racialized in terms of "We don't want them in our community". I've heard the same happening for jewish people, especially in NYC and doubly so when talking about Hasids. To belittle a cause, to mock of its legitimacy, to point to theatrics where only hard truths and firm goals should exist. "A cause is illegitimate because some of them might be racist" Have you no shame?
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Jun 19, 2014 07:44
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on the left posted:I don't get it, do you think that all racism is bad, or do you prioritize racism based on some sort of oppression olympics system? All racism is bad. Ironic racism is still racism. Hope this helps.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:50
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I don't think it robs the cause of its legitimacy, but when I hear the same argument being used for why white people should shut up in relation to why being gay should not be a protected class (i.e. black suffering is the most important suffering, gay people should shut up about comparing their fight to ours) it makes me think that argument is probably a lovely one.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:53
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natetimm posted:You just couldn't imagine a person like that exists who wouldn't think you guys are doing him a real huge favor, huh? Dude, I don't think you're understanding what they hate. What they hate isn't progressivism or the idea that white people oppress them, but nominally-well-meaning paternalistic bullshit. There's a reason why "white liberal feminists" are considered pretty much the scourge of social justice by most serious activists, and it's not because POCs don't like progressive movements or are terribly fond of white people.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:59
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SALT CURES HAM posted:Dude, I don't think you're understanding what they hate. No, I understand that completely. I don't even hate progressivism myself, I actually agree with most of it. What I dislike are the lovely mentalities and arguments that come along with it.
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Jun 19, 2014 08:01
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on the left posted:It doesn't really matter what conservatives do, if you are a self-professed anti-racist, nothing racist should come out of your mouth. You're thinking about this the wrong way. If something racist DOES come out of your mouth without you realizing, you should be capable of recognizing it and correcting it - or taking serious the criticism of it when people point it out. Pretending there's no racism in you whatsoever would whitewash the powerful influence of cultural conditioning that's been pounded into all of our heads since childhood. Also, people make mistakes - and how one addresses those mistakes is very important to consider.
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Jun 19, 2014 08:06
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Spacedad posted:You're thinking about this the wrong way. If something racist DOES come out of your mouth without you realizing, you should be capable of recognizing it and correcting it - or taking serious the criticism of it when people point it out. Pretending there's no racism in you whatsoever would whitewash the powerful influence of cultural conditioning that's been pounded into all of our heads since childhood. Also, people make mistakes - and how one addresses those mistakes is very important to consider. So if the common way to handle it is to say "It's not racist because I have redefined racism to not include my actions", is that a good way to handle it, or a bad way?
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Jun 19, 2014 08:09
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natetimm posted:No, I understand that completely. I don't even hate progressivism myself, I actually agree with most of it. What I dislike are the lovely mentalities and arguments that come along with it. If a black person or community were to do something that could be considered discriminatory (but non-violent) against a white person and a white person or community were to do the same thing to a black person, would the two things be equally bad? Assuming this happened in present-day USA.
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Jun 19, 2014 08:12
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The Mash posted:If a black person or community were to do something that could be considered discriminatory (but non-violent) against a white person and a white person or community were to do the same thing to a black person, would the two things be equally bad? Assuming this happened in present-day USA. Define "bad". Bad implies consequences. What are you gunning for here? That discriminatory practices against white people should be considered less bad in the name of equality? You realize that's the polar opposite of progressive, right?
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Jun 19, 2014 08:21
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Instead of good or bad I'd say it's the difference between right and wrong. And there are some things that are wrong no matter what. Redefine racism to only mean what white people do, and I don't see where that gets you. Prejudice, racism, whatever you'd like to call it, is wrong no matter who does it.
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Jun 19, 2014 08:36
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natetimm posted:Define "bad". Bad implies consequences. What are you gunning for here? That discriminatory practices against white people should be considered less bad in the name of equality? You realize that's the polar opposite of progressive, right? "Discrimination" and "Racism" are separate, though. They have entirely different meanings. Your point means nothing without this conflation. Discrimination is a voice. Racism is an institution. Discrimination is a word. Racism is an ideology. Discrimination alone does not become racism in plurality. Or are you here to talk down about how the Black Panthers were bad because they backed their beliefs with the threat of violence?
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Jun 19, 2014 08:38
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Job Truniht posted:"Discrimination" and "Racism" are separate, though. They have entirely different meanings. Your point means nothing without this conflation. I'm here to say that if your goal is a society with no marginalized people, it doesn't make sense to marginalize more in the name of equality. There isn't some limited amount of "bad" floating around in the universe that can only be applied to so many situations before we run out of it. Nothing is harmed and no causes are set back when you admit that when those types of situations are forced on ANYONE of any race, color, creed, sexual orientation they are all equally bad because the goal is for everyone to be equally protected. I understand that as it stands in American society today, people are not equally protected. However, the way to remedy that isn't to start marginalizing other people so we can all have a race to the bottom and feel better about ourselves. It blows my mind that the strategy for some people to foster equality is to make others less equal instead of attempting to give the marginalized a leg up. You compromise your entire set of values once you admit that someone's suffering, pain or marginalization only matters to you as far as your own pet projects, prejudices, and personal opinions. In fact, it's just a reflection of the type of society people are actively trying to work on now, just with different actors playing different parts. It's structurally the same goddamn thing with a different set of priorities.
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Jun 19, 2014 08:48
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I agree, but I'm sort of resigned to it. And my feeling is that you have to be careful not to let it work you up. If people want to start a club with a "progressive stack" (i.e. a hierarchy flipped upside down) then they're free to do that. But why bother participating? So I don't. I remember this Occupy video from New York where the organizers announced this system and you see the looks on people's faces, like it kind of caught them by surprise. So peace out of there, and most people do. I guess this goes back to the first post. The question was, basically: how do I argue with these people on Facebook? Okay, that's mistake number one. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 08:59
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The existence of the oppressed always confirms the existence of the oppressor. The most immediate, effective cure is to eliminate the oppressors. I don't get why you're going on this massive diatribe about marginalization when you're remotely implying that the black cause should be marginalized because their cause isn't good enough to use force.
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Jun 19, 2014 09:02
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Omi-Polari posted:I agree, but I'm sort of resigned to it. And my feeling is that you have to be careful not to let it work you up. If people want to start a club with a "progressive stack" (i.e. a hierarchy flipped upside down) then they're free to do that. But why bother participating? So I don't. I remember this Occupy video from New York where the organizers announced this system and you see the looks on people's faces, like it kind of caught them by surprise. So peace out of there, and most people do. I'm like the uber-troll because while I spend part of my time beating progressives over the head for this poo poo, in real life I spend time advancing progressive causes like gay rights, a living wage, and lecturing a few of my friends why saying "nigga" is still stupid if you're white.
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Jun 19, 2014 09:07
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on the left posted:So if the common way to handle it is to say "It's not racist because I have redefined racism to not include my actions", is that a good way to handle it, or a bad way? Of course that's the bad way. Racism is a product of ignorance, willful or unwillful. Being in denial about it is a strain of the willful variety.
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Jun 19, 2014 09:09
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Job Truniht posted:The existence of the oppressed always confirms the existence of the oppressor. The most immediate, effective cure is to eliminate the oppressors. Force against who, though? Average white idiots? Do most black people(or any people, really) even understand the system that is oppressing them and where force would be most useful? Do they have the capability to apply that force if they wanted to? Hell, do privileged-rear end white people even have that ability? It's not that their cause isn't good enough for the application of force, it's that the system is rigged completely against them if it comes to that. Black people using force would end up with a whole bunch more of them dead or in prison and a bunch of sideline racist idiots lining up to tell everyone "I told you so."
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Jun 19, 2014 09:11
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natetimm posted:I'm like the uber-troll because while I spend part of my time beating progressives over the head for this poo poo, in real life I spend time advancing progressive causes like gay rights, a living wage, and lecturing a few of my friends why saying "nigga" is still stupid if you're white. Some may say "silence = complicity." But if you're silent then it's difficult to tell who you are complicit with. In any case, I think a free society is one that protects both speech and the right not to speak. Free societies should not compel people to take part in political activities regardless of the rightness or wrongness of the activity. So if you have progressives doing stupid poo poo like the "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" stack politics, then you're under no obligation to participate in that. And you shouldn't let any left-wing activist try to guilt-trip you otherwise by saying that just reflects your privilege. You can't be accused of crowding out marginalized voices if you never show up.
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Jun 19, 2014 09:29
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natetimm posted:EDIT: Oh hey, you want to see what happens when a black guy has opinions that don't jive with the typical leftist hive-mind idiocy? Look no further then SedanChair's avatar. One of your like-minded progressives gave him that for bucking your party line. Which before anyone says anything, doesn't mean the identity stuff is irrelevant, just that it's not the complete solution.
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Jun 19, 2014 09:57
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natetimm posted:I'm here to say that if your goal is a society with no marginalized people, it doesn't make sense to marginalize more in the name of equality. eryone to be equally protected. Okay, you just don't understand what's being said. White people are not marginalized in America, at all. Being a white man is the ticket to having everyone listen to you and take you seriously in every walk of life. When a minority talks about their perspective, they are marginalized, ignored, invalidated by white people who consider that perspective worthless. White people are being told to shut up and listen for once when people with other experiences talk about it. quote:It blows my mind that the strategy for some people to foster equality is to make others less equal instead of attempting to give the marginalized a leg up. structurally the same goddamn thing with a different set of priorities. Anti-white racism does not exist. There are no racialized systems or institutions that target white people, make them less equal, or hurt them in any way. It is not a thing. Focusing on nonexistent harms like "white person felt briefly uncomfortable reading a blog" is the last refuge of racists. It distracts from the real harms being perpetrated and redirects the conversation to white people. Essentially "I won't let you be equal to me until my feelings stop being hurt". That person should be marginalized so he can't interfere with giving the oppressed a leg up. Don't worry, that white man will be fine. He is not oppressed in any way and he can fall back on his privilege literally everywhere else in life and forget about that awful moment where he was expected to be considerate of a black man. on the left posted:I don't get it, do you think that all racism is bad, or do you prioritize racism based on some sort of oppression olympics system? No I think you, personally, don't give a poo poo about racism except when you can use it as a convenient attack on civil rights. Because attacking minorities for being racist is all you ever do. This is the second to last refuge of the racist: "Let's stop talking about the vast harms of institutional racism and focus on how racist black people are instead. As an anti-racist, I need to make sure no black person ever insults a white person before they've proven they deserve not to be discriminated against themselves" You're not an Asian person or a gay person speaking out against oppression and asking for solidarity. You're not a black person trying to address problems in your community. You're a straight white man seizing on anything you can to direct attention away from white racism. "Negro College Fund? You mean they only give scholarships to black people, not Asians or whites or gay Native Americans? My my, how racist of them  If we want to talk about equality in education, let's start here, with the Most Racist thing    "
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 14:08
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VitalSigns posted:No I think you, personally, don't give a poo poo about racism except when you can use it as a convenient attack on civil rights. Because attacking minorities for being racist is all you ever do. I'm not white and I realized the people who go out of their way to call themselves anti-racists don't really care about racism at all except as a trendy social movement, and downplay/minimize any racism that doesn't fit into their white man oppresses the noble minority narrative. VitalSigns posted:You're not an Asian person or a gay person speaking out against oppression and asking for solidarity. You're not a black person trying to address problems in your community. You're a straight white man seizing on anything you can to direct attention away from white racism. "Negro College Fund? You mean they only give scholarships to black people, not Asians or whites or gay Native Americans? My my, how racist of them You disagree with me? You must be white! What a great debate technique to make everything about a person's race. on the left fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 14:36
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Is that your canned lazy response to everything? "Ugh talking about oppression is just a trend. I'm the trendsetter, ignoring oppression " Why are you in this thread then, raging about all the anti-white racism you can, if that's just a trick of trendy hipsters to preen themselves? Edit: It's not about your race, it's about your argument. Handwringing about black racism whenever white racism is brought up is a cheap tactic to distract the conversation. Not being white doesn't magically change the effect of what you're doing. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 14:47
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Ytlaya posted:I honestly think that the issue is less that people like you are bad or racist or something and more that you just have a really terrible imagination. Seriously, it isn't difficult to imagine why it would be extremely obnoxious for a group that doesn't face anything approaching the level of discrimination and other problems you face as a result of your race/gender/whatever to keep chiming in about their own feelings. I've spent a lot of time as an expat. There are complaints and issues and experiences that expats have that native people won't understand and probably can't. It doesn't speak badly of them. They just don't have the frame of reference to empathize and even if they're trying it doesn't really work. And when expats are getting a little bitter and being a little unfair (which happens. It's a natural kind of response to frustration) people can get pissed and defensive and that's even more irritating when you're already feeling sorry for yourself. Sometimes you just do not want to hear it from someone who doesn't understand, or you don't want to explain things for the Nth time to someone who isn't going to get it. I get that. However, that poo poo (complaining by expats) can get really offensive and unfair and it's on the people who want their safe place to let loose to make sure they're doing it in a friendly forum and not out in public where other people are going to get the wrong idea. I don't think there's a right to throw bile in peoples faces and expect them not to have anything to say about it.
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Jun 19, 2014 14:48
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VitalSigns posted:Anti-white racism does not exist. There are no racialized systems or institutions that target white people, make them less equal, or hurt them in any way. It is not a thing. To be clear, I don't think this means white people are off the hook "because black people are just as bad!", but failing to acknowledge the existence (or even possibility) of these outliers (and they are outliers) seems to me to just be a way to mythologize white people. It's not just that history created the conditions of today, which white people happily take advantage of, white people are specifically suited towards creating such structures. That is the argument you're putting forth when you unequivocally say that it is not a thing. Not just a thing that is insignificant on a societal scale, but literally non-existant. *It was some years ago, and people screeching about "anti-white" racism for every little thing kind of makes it hard to find legitimate examples.
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Jun 19, 2014 14:57
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I have a hard time finding the specific article*, but are you really sure about this? Not talking federal systems or institutions, but ones that cover much smaller geographic areas. Is the idea that the institutions of a solidly majority black city might mirror those of solidly majority white cities, except with black people on top, really so unfathomable? Obviously the fact the systems above will not share this quality means there's a greater check on their power, but that doesn't mean it's not there. Not at all, please post the article when you find it, or PM me. Exceptions exist to pretty much any general rule; there's no sense in pretending they don't exist. The obstructionism tactic is those like on the left who have to come in and draw attention to minor quirks and exceptions to the exclusion of anything else, and that should be ignored. If the NAACP had to endlessly quibble with every white person who demanded they explain how it's not racist to only work for the advancement of people of color, they'd never get anything else done. Which is, of course, the point of these antics.
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Jun 19, 2014 15:26
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