|
Zurai posted:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eZqUZpcKsooBl2-1cENiSNjeaqzuoeV-tavBvF-3igc/edit#gid=0 I've played in nearly that many if not as many (I've lost track of exactly how many bugged out for me partway through and needed to get reimbursed, but my total number of actual drafts finished is 29 based on the amount of platinum I've spent, taking into account my first three draft vouchers). I don't think dickwaving as to who played a few more drafts than the other is going to help get to the truth here, though I admit I didn't play in Alpha. It's interesting to look at that data but it still doesn't eliminate a lot of possible confounding factors, like the influence of the rest of your deck. The fact is that with a good enough draft deck/draws it's possible to just have whatever champion and win with the 3 points of life drain you got from Gozzog (or whatever) having been irrelevant, whereas when you are in a bad situation, being able to remove a creature with 1 toughness or give flying to your guy can be amazingly swingy. This is why I'd love to see some better/more detailed analysis taking into account how the deck functions, how likely it is to get that deck, how directly useful the champion's abilities are in each game, etc. I don't expect you to take the burden upon yourself to do all this research, of course; I'm just saying what would convince me. A better way of putting it might be that the "better" champions are good when you are in a tight spot, or they require a much less specific scenario to give their value, whereas the "worse" champions are unreliable or win-more. All this said, consider the unspoken challenge accepted--I'm going to try to work harder with some of the worse champions going forward. I'll report my findings. JerryLee fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Jun 19, 2014 |
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 04:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 10:15 |
|
|
JerryLee posted:All this said, consider the unspoken challenge accepted--I'm going to try to work harder with some of the worse champions going forward. I'll report my findings. That's all anyone can ask. I'm doing the same thing; I actually tried to use Polonius in the draft I'm playing now but I must have forgotten to save the champion change because I had Kishimoto in the first match. Of course, I won before turn 8 in the first game and the Squirrel wouldn't have won me the game any harder in game 2, in part thanks to Kishimoto-fueled Survival of the Fittests, but hey. I do readily admit that there's a go-to champion for each color except Wild (and that Wild champions are worse than the others pretty much universally). I just disagree that there's such a stark difference in power between those go-to champions and most of the others. Keep in mind that the champions we have now aren't the only champions we'll ever have. I know they're planning to rotate champions periodically. I don't know if there'll be a new group with every set or with every "block" (if Hex even goes with a block format) or what, but there will be periodic infusions of new champs.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 04:48
|
|
|
My two cents, while I have only drafted 15ish games most of them have involved me playing blood and I feel comfortable saying I think Venomscorn is just better than the other blood champs. I have gone so far as to splash Venomscorn, he is just that much better than the other champions. On top of all the other things people have listed stacks really well with Sorrow(and Atrophy), with the two it is hard to not blow someone out.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 09:58
|
|
|
One of the interesting things about champions that has always been a bit of a head scratcher for me is that Zared (-1/-1) and Palameded (+1/+1) are both at 4 charges. It's been my experience with TCGs that removal tends to come at a slightly higher cost than buffs. I guess I've sort of internalized that because buffs tend to come with a higher level of card advantage risk. Knowing that Cryptozoic values them both the same feels like an interesting data point, but I'm not sure what it says in the greater sense. Seems to me that Zared could go up to 5 charges and still be totally competitive, in this format at least. There are a shitload of x/1 troops running around which, I think, is part of what makes Zared so good. If there were less Gem-Crazed Berserker and their ilk out there and more x/2s he'd be slightly worse but -1/-1 is still incredibly powerful. I'm also not sure why Karnak is the double-blood-threshold guy. I guess it's the "pay life for [benefit]" is the aspect that they want to push as 'the most blood' but (again, based on this format) I'd rather see Zared as the BB threshold. The champions are a really interesting wrinkle to the game, and I think that we're having this conversation at all is a good thing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 16:59
|
|
|
I remember they said that these were all the Set 1 champions. I wonder if they're going to put out more champs with set 2, and if so, what will they be doing?
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 17:12
|
|
|
MerrMan posted:One of the interesting things about champions that has always been a bit of a head scratcher for me is that Zared (-1/-1) and Palameded (+1/+1) are both at 4 charges. It's been my experience with TCGs that removal tends to come at a slightly higher cost than buffs. I guess I've sort of internalized that because buffs tend to come with a higher level of card advantage risk. Knowing that Cryptozoic values them both the same feels like an interesting data point, but I'm not sure what it says in the greater sense. I don't know that the charge system is a good reflection of how removal stacks up to its opposites. Consider Wild Growth is incredibly inexpensive, compared to Atrophy, and Murder is more expensive than both Spellshield and Stoneskin, for example. Champions are a unique aspect of the game, in that they give you a reward for developing your board/managing another resource. In order for them to comparable for balance, they typically need to have lasting benefits (ie. Permanent modifiers). For example, would Zared at 5 charges be as good as say drawing another card, which is also at 5? Probably not, given that in constructed an aggressive deck with already have you reeling, and in limited your opponent has had an extra turn of board development. What about +1/+1? It's also at 4 charges, and like -1/-1 at 4, it can also do the job at breaking board stalls. I think ultimately, like you mentioned, the fact we can discuss this means the game has a lot of opportunity for growth in that area, which is fantastic.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 17:37
|
|
|
I feel like wild has much worse general champion options than the others, at least if you're not playing Shin Hare.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 00:33
|
|
|
The Moon Monster posted:I feel like wild has much worse general champion options than the others, at least if you're not playing Shin Hare. I think if the +2/+2 gave crush as well, it would be incredibly playable. As it stands I have seen it used to great effect only in decks stacked with Feral Ogre. What I think is most interesting is the differences between the lifedrain pinger, the 3/1 haste generator, and the +3/0 guy. Over the course of a game, they all accomplish about the same thing - deal 3 damage to an opponent, but they do so in different ways that make each one have different applications. In a swarmy aggro deck full of fragile creatures, the 3/1 haste has a larger chance of getting through than the +3/0, which is best in a heavily evasive deck, and in the mirror the lifedrain pinger is the clear winner, but all three are very viable in an aggro deck. I also think the ruby artifact hero is incredibly undervalued, and while making robots is nice, the red one amounts to "kill any opposing creature" in a well drafted robots deck. Both of the lifegain champs (the one that gives lifedrain and the one that gains 5 life) seem incredibly playable as well - when lifegain isn't costing you a card it becomes much more valuable, which is something we've seen in various Magic cards. Gaining 7 life for the cost of a card is incredibly bad, but gaining 5 life for free once a game is really good at winning a race.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 02:35
|
|
|
Drafting dwarves they need to stall a bit before getting up and running, so fighting the Wild lifegain guy can be a bit poo poo if you aren't drawing a Volcannon / etc soon enough and in the meantime they are getting out big tramplers / ignoring the big damage from Scrap Welders
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 02:46
|
|
|
Sigma-X posted:I also think the ruby artifact hero is incredibly undervalued, and while making robots is nice, the red one amounts to "kill any opposing creature" in a well drafted robots deck. I did some thinking about Fahrny and realized why I was undervaluing him. My first instinct was to ask, "how often am I going to get maximum value out of his power?" and the answer was "not very often, because most playable artifacts are pretty cheap." But the actual question to ask is "what is the average value of his power?" And I'd put that at around 2-3 damage to target troop for 5 charges, which isn't bad at all. For an extra charge, you can usually kill a fair amount more things than Zared. The other roadblock to Fahrny is that if I have a bunch of artifacts I'm usually playing dwarves, and if I'm playing dwarves I usually really want the consistency of being able to poo poo out an artifact/robot troop on demand for the various enters-play abilities.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 02:47
|
|
|
I just saw three different Time Bugs go past me in my current draft. Two in the first pack (p1 and p3 for me) and one in the third pack. I really, really wish I'd taken them; I ended up with a Rocket Ranger/Scrap Welder deck with Air Superiority. They would have been beautifully perfect. This is the one and only time you will ever see me say, "I really wish I'd drafted those Time Bugs". Zurai fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Jun 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 03:10
|
|
|
I, in contrast, am really glad you didn't because I got all three of them. And a volcannon and slaughtergear. Man that was a tense second game, though; I was absolutely certain you were going to draw some sort of removal for that last bug.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 03:43
|
|
|
The Time Bug wasn't the issue, the Volcannon was (and the Mentalist-ed Wall in the first game). If I drew another Scrap Welder in the second game I would have won (assuming you didn't have Countermagic/removal up), but I lost the first game as soon as you Countermagiced the Bomb Technician to keep me from killing the wall. Too much card advantage.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 03:48
|
|
|
I just mean you had damage to finish me off if I couldn't have blocked one of your flyers. But, yeah, another Scrap Welder also would have done the job - lots of ways you could have pulled that out if the draw had gone your way.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 03:52
|
|
|
Thoom posted:The other roadblock to Fahrny is that if I have a bunch of artifacts I'm usually playing dwarves, and if I'm playing dwarves I usually really want the consistency of being able to poo poo out an artifact/robot troop on demand for the various enters-play abilities. This is my big thing. There are enough cards in the robots deck that "turn on" or get better with robots that being basically guaranteed to have one in play for "free" (and being able to hold it till the turn you need it to make it more likely that it is still in play when your trigger goes off) are great for me. I can see Fahrny being really good but the deck he's in would probably look less like the typical robots deck and more like a red deck that runs a bunch of the expensive robots for value. Alternatively, I suppose if you are really really hard up for removal.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 03:52
|
|
|
JerryLee posted:I can see Fahrny being really good but the deck he's in would probably look less like the typical robots deck and more like a red deck that runs a bunch of the expensive robots for value. Alternatively, I suppose if you are really really hard up for removal. They don't need to be expensive robots. Even a Charge Bot gets you the same removal value as Zared, and an Effigy is both an evasive 2/2 for 3 and a potential 3-point nuke with Fahrny. You're right that a Fahrny deck looks a lot different from a Bertram deck, though. Fahrny decks are more aggressive and don't have a lot of cards that care about robot quantity (Construction Plans, Pterobots, Research Librarians, etc). Bertram decks tend to be very slow (barring god hands) and want to be absolutely certain they have multiple robots out.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 04:00
|
|
|
So this was a game that happened. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 04:35
|
|
|
Zurai posted:They don't need to be expensive robots. Even a Charge Bot gets you the same removal value as Zared While I realize you're talking about the worst case scenario where Fahrny is concerned, this is a misleading comparison, as one of the great things about Zared is that there are so many times when he swings combat math and board state in your favor even if he doesn't kill the other creature outright. Just pointing this out. I agree with the rest of your post, though.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 04:39
|
|
|
JerryLee posted:While I realize you're talking about the worst case scenario where Fahrny is concerned, this is a misleading comparison, as one of the great things about Zared is that there are so many times when he swings combat math and board state in your favor even if he doesn't kill the other creature outright. Just pointing this out. It isn't misleading at all. I said the same removal value as Zared. That is a true statement with nothing misleading about it; if you have even a single Charge Bot out, Fahrny and Zared can remove exactly the same creatures.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 04:43
|
|
|
Fair enough; I parsed it in a different way than what you intended. e: I would still say it's "misleading" in the sense of "not a terribly useful metric for actually assessing value" since all other things being equal a permanent -1/-1 is much more broadly useful than a 1-point burn, and conversely Fah will often (if things are going well for you) be able to just blow fat things off the board when Zared could only shrink them a bit. But the language you used was properly specific; sorry if I implied otherwise. JerryLee fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Jun 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 04:48
|
|
|
That's probably my fault, I have a hard time communicating exactly what I mean sometimes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 04:52
|
|
|
Update on silly 3 Time Bug draft: blown the gently caress up in round 3 by diamond/wild with an opening hand Princess Victoria. My lack of removal (one burn, one bombsmith) finally caught up with me. I want to say I still don't understand why wild is so consistently underdrafted but then I keep not drafting it because it seems really boring. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 04:59
|
|
|
Irony.or.Death posted:I want to say I still don't understand why wild is so consistently underdrafted but then I keep not drafting it because it seems really boring. Lack of good champions, lack of unconditional removal, lack of fliers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 05:04
|
|
|
Slifter posted:So this was a game that happened.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 05:06
|
|
|
Grim posted:He Buccaneer'd your Honeycap? Its cost is still 4, it looks like. Maybe that mass bounce spell? I'm having a hard time thinking of other effects that bounce opposing permanents but don't increase their cost. That 6-cost robot dwarf, but that's obviously not the case here.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 05:09
|
|
|
Maybe a second Gigantify on a Honeycap played on 7? Otherwise Wild Aura + some other permanent buffs. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 05:10
|
|
|
JerryLee posted:Its cost is still 4, it looks like. Maybe that mass bounce spell? I'm having a hard time thinking of other effects that bounce opposing permanents but don't increase their cost. That 6-cost robot dwarf, but that's obviously not the case here. Probably wild aura/wild growth. If it were just Gigantify it'd be at most 14.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 05:13
|
|
|
Honeycap on 6, Gigantify on 7, Wild Aura (can see in the graveyard plus it has crush) on 8. EDIT: Thought I was gonna completely blank on all 5 of my recent tournaments, but got there in the end with the last one. Mono-diamond Dimmid. I did have one Righteous Paladin but it was never a factor beyond being a removal magnet. The 15+ health I gained did save me in one game where +1/+1 wouldn't have, though. To be fair though, I shouldn't have won the first round; my opponent had a diamond/sapphire deck with All The Removal And Fliers, but got greedy with an all out attack in the second game (I had a Soothing Breeze in hand that I'd sided in that saved me and then was able to counterattack for exactsies) then kept a 1 land hand with two ragebirds in game 3 and didn't draw another resource until like turn 6 while I curved out perfectly. Match 2 was against a wild/blood Zared deck with approximately infinite Darkspire Priestesses who always managed to roll damage against me. This is where Dimmid saved me; I won one game with 1 health after taking a total of 15 Darkspire Priestess damage throughout the game. Anyway, he didn't have any fliers and I drew my (single) Sky'le Griffon both games, so it was just a matter of keeping my head above water with lifedrain while I chipped away at his life. Chimaera Guard Outrider also did a lot of work in the second game. Match 3 was against a mono-sapphire deck using Nin (the mill champ). I didn't see much of his deck though; the only cards he played in two games were a ragebird, a Turreted Wall, a Mesmerize, and two Oracle's Songs. I curved out in both games and my life total was never a factor (nor was the size of anyone's creatures, really, I could have had no champ and won). I assume his deck was sweet and he just didn't draw what he needed either game, but like I said, I saw almost nothing of it. That brings me to a point: I honestly think that if any of the champions are poorly designed, it's Nin. Nin, at the absolute best (barring something like 4 Induction Coils in play), mills 1 card per turn. Even in limited his ability is so rarely actually relevant that I'm honestly not sure he's the best choice even in dedicated mill decks. I suppose he can act as an accelerator for Spawns of Othyug, but that's seriously it and 1/1 fliers aren't that hard to deal with most of the time. Zurai fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Jun 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 05:39
|
|
|
JerryLee posted:Its cost is still 4, it looks like. Maybe that mass bounce spell? I'm having a hard time thinking of other effects that bounce opposing permanents but don't increase their cost. That 6-cost robot dwarf, but that's obviously not the case here. You got it, it was the mass bounce spell. It was a 6/6 buffed to 8/8 with the Aura and replayed at seven shards. Had another fun game in that draft. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 05:56
|
|
|
I was just loving about against the AI with an Ingenuity Engine and I really can't wait until we see a card that lets us sac artifacts; that board was a fuckin mess
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 11:30
|
|
|
Welp, I guess eventually I'd have to get a bugged draft. It borked after I won my first round. I had just drafted a killer Wild/sapphire deck too. The first round I had flying dinosaurs everywhere. Hell yeah phoenix guard trainer can train a tyrannosaurus hex to fly. It just gets on the bird like everyone else right? I submitted a support ticket. Knowing them, they'll reimburse my draft ticket. They're awesome like that. Edit: double edit: Not even an hour later I have a reimbursed draft ticket. These guys. Afgad fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Jun 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 13:58
|
|
|
Afgad posted:double edit: Not even an hour later I have a reimbursed draft ticket. These guys. They're awesome like that. I know one draft the client bugged out and wouldn't let me choose the first two cards I drafted (randomed due to time), and I submitted a ticket while still drafting. I had a free draft ticket before the rounds started, and I even managed to win the draft.  Hex customer support has been pretty amazing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 17:00
|
|
|
Drafted a decent monogreen bunnies deck last night that ended up taking 2nd place (ran into blue flyers in the final and couldn't deal with them quickly enough). My three pack reward procced a primal (my first one since the KS rewards were handed out!)-  I think the $1 I spent in plat was worth it 
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 20:25
|
|
|
I know AH isn't out yet, but what do you guys think are the rares worth raredrafting, i.e. what are the rares involved in tier 1 constructed decks? I literally know nothing about constructed Hex.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 01:43
|
|
|
So I drafted the most control heavy draft deck I've ever seen. 3 countermagic 1 buccanear 3 bombsmiths 3 time ripples 1 polymorph dingler I barely had enough room to add my threats onto that list.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 01:45
|
|
|
dongsbot 9000 posted:I know AH isn't out yet, but what do you guys think are the rares worth raredrafting, i.e. what are the rares involved in tier 1 constructed decks? I literally know nothing about constructed Hex. Vampire King and Soul Marble for sure. Stay away from rares available in the starter sets (Tel'taca, Gore Feast, etc) or through Kickstarter rewards (Extinction, Pack Raptor, etc) if you're not going to actually use them. Of course, those cards tend to also be quite good for limited, so don't ignore them for your actual deck.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 01:52
|
|
|
I would always pick Extinction. It's a) going to be in demand despite all the AA Extinctions floating around from Kickstarter because it's good in every blood control deck in constructed, b) totally worth first picking, and c) totally worth hate drafting in pack 2/3 if you're not in blood.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 02:15
|
|
|
So I get matched up with the 5 boulder brute (4 with spellshield one with flying) guy who also has a Storm colossus. Welp. Can't win em all. Edit: Next draft, draft two angels of dawn in my mono diamond deck.
Afgad fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Jun 21, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 02:19
|
|
|
dongsbot 9000 posted:I know AH isn't out yet, but what do you guys think are the rares worth raredrafting, i.e. what are the rares involved in tier 1 constructed decks? I literally know nothing about constructed Hex. raredraft anything with a red icon (except for Fist of Brigadorn and Rampaging Tarrasque), soul marble, extinction, Heatwave, Spearcliff Cloudknight. I think those are most likely to have lasting, widespread appeal enough to justify their price. Additional cards to watch out for: Chaos Key (you'll always play this, so just take this) Eldritch Dreamer Emberspire Witch Onslaught Protectorate Defender In general, costs for Set 1 are going to be heavily tanked due to the kickstarter flood, although once the game goes open beta/retail I would imagine prices will increase just as the increase in demand catches up to the current flood of supply. I think the rarity of the red icon cards will make them worth it as they will at least have casual or niche appeal, except for Fist and Tarrasque just because they are so hard to cast and there isn't enough reason to play monocolor yet and they aren't great. Soul Marble, Extinction, Heatwave, and Spearcliff Cloudknight are just really good cards that work in pretty much any archetype. Spearcliff is notable for being probably the most efficiently costed creature in the game - with a drawback of only being 3/2 for 3, he has the potential to be a control finisher and an aggro mainstay. Protectorate Defender and Eldritch Dreamer have the benefit of being the best socket carriers in the game, being efficiently costed for their base abilities and being socketable major. Both of them have a high chance of getting the incredibly powerful major socket "combat damage" abilities that generate card advantage. Emberspire Witch is an efficiently costed hoser. Onslaught has huge timmy factors, plus is a major deck enabler. Chaos Key is just amazing, it costs quite a bit but the ability to float it out there and sit on it is great, and it's the only card that is playable in any deck and voids any card. There are other cards that are good but they are typically good In A Situation Or Decktype. Emberspire is the most borderline of the cards I called out and he's included only because I feel that's the sort of hoser that is most needed right now - there are many ways to gain life effectively in a constructed deck right now that are playable and as long as those abilities are around they threaten aggro decks.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 03:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 10:15 |
|
|
Cool, thanks. As a brief aside, it's cool that Karnegal and Sigma-X both made it to Hex b/c you two are the two names I remember from the MtG topic, so presumably you guys are cool and/or funny and/or helpful. Also, there's no F6 in this game, is there? Kind of annoying how I randomly bleed time but it hasn't been that big of a deal yet.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2014 03:32
|
|