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Viscardus posted:Well, fair enough if I was wrong about the call in that game being correct. My understanding was that it had something to do with the nuance of the New Zealand player being offside but not having been considered to have affected the play until the Italian defender touched the ball, which seems like a rather absurd explanation, because how can you really determine whether his offside position affected the play? As far as I know, most of it boils down to "has the player touched the ball?". If not, he hasn't influenced the play. Zip! posted:Offsides wouldn't be too hard to automate or be called by a TV ref - you just have a fixed camera set up behind each goal and a virtual game line tracking up and down the pitch following the last man. Which is already implemented, at least in replays. Just make it real time and put another referee in charge of it.
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Jun 20, 2014 11:53
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Zip! posted:Offsides wouldn't be too hard to automate or be called by a TV ref - you just have a fixed camera set up behind each goal and a virtual game line tracking up and down the pitch following the last man. Injury time is vastly preferable to stopping the clock. It removes incentive to quickly resume play, and sooner or later the advertising industry will lobby to standardize the amount of time each stop takes, and we will have commercial breaks during the game. gently caress that, excessive time wasting is punished by the refs anyway.
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Jun 20, 2014 12:00
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Whew, just now caught up with this LP. Best LP I've ever read by the way. I have a question though and it's probably ignorant because I don't know much about soccer or professional sports buuuuut when you sign these 16 year old kids to play for you, are they, like, full time players now? Don't they also have to go to school? How's that work?
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Jun 20, 2014 12:03
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Rexim posted:Whew, just now caught up with this LP. Best LP I've ever read by the way. Most bigger clubs have boarding schools for exceptionally talented kids where they finish school in the morning and then head off to training in the afternoon. It still feels like child trafficking sometimes especially if you hear about the megabastards chasing some 11 year old and so on but what can you do. For the less rich clubs you tend to finish school at your new place (depending on your place of orignin there might even be a native language school to be had in bigger cities) while having regular training, so you can at least finish your education.
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Jun 20, 2014 13:08
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Like Rexim, I've just finished a read-through of the thread, having started it a week or so ago. It's been a surprisingly gripping read. I was childishly delighted with Bailey's triumphant return and, ah, re-education, and gobsmacked when Sky Shadowing took over Southampton. Thank you, Habeas. It's been a hell of a ride. One of the things that's impressed me most about the game is how accurately it models the sheer random chaos of soccer results. Whilst better sides will usually win over poorer sides, and big gaps in quality do shine through, soccer is very variable, and the best team may well not win on the night. Refs are definitely a significant part of that turbulence, but there's a whole boatload of other factors as well. I'm not suggesting this excuses poor refereeing, or justifies its continued existence. I'm only pointing out that even with perfect rulings, the game would still be damned chaotic and unpredictable.
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Jun 20, 2014 13:48
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I'm not suggesting we need to alter the fundamental nature of the game by adding clock stoppage or providing automatic breaks for video replay or some such. That stuff works in Gridiron football, not soccer. But if FIFA wants their sport taken seriously as the biggest one on Earth, there's a responsibility to present the fairest possible version of the game within the confines of human fallibility and the rules of the game. Blown calls are indeed inevitable, but that is not an excuse for them if/when they happen. After all, this is a sport run by literally the most corrupt institution on Earth. If we're supposed to accept bad calls as "all part of the game" then why not accept bribing the referees as the same?
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Jun 20, 2014 16:52
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GenHavoc posted:I'm not suggesting we need to alter the fundamental nature of the game by adding clock stoppage or providing automatic breaks for video replay or some such. That stuff works in Gridiron football, not soccer. But if FIFA wants their sport taken seriously as the biggest one on Earth, there's a responsibility to present the fairest possible version of the game within the confines of human fallibility and the rules of the game. Blown calls are indeed inevitable, but that is not an excuse for them if/when they happen. After all, this is a sport run by literally the most corrupt institution on Earth. If we're supposed to accept bad calls as "all part of the game" then why not accept bribing the referees as the same? Taken seriously? I thought it was unconditionally acknowledged as the biggest sport on earth. As for all the rules lawyering going on, let's just leave it as it is, ok? Goal line tech is pretty needed, and maybe an extra official near the box whose sole duty it is is to watch for fouls. Anything else is going to impact the flow of the game in some way, and isn't acceptable. Maybe once we have robots watching, it'll change, but not now.
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Jun 20, 2014 17:59
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 for the Ticos.
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Jun 20, 2014 19:31
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rizzen posted:Taken seriously? I thought it was unconditionally acknowledged as the biggest sport on earth. Maybe it is, but if so, that's why "just let it go, cheating, corruption, and blown calls are fine" is so unacceptable. There are absolutely things that can be done to improve the game without impeding it's flow. Even those few things you suggested, which would do wonders to help out, will either never be implemented or were only implemented after flagrant mis-calls deciding the outcome of what is supposedly the most important sporting competition in the world. Declaring it's not worth fixing is tantamount to declaring it's not important enough to bother with. Soccer is unquestionably played more than any other sport I know of (save maybe Tag or something), but I have a hard time recognizing its claim of being the most important sport in the world when less effort is exerted to ensure the outcome is fair in the World Cup Finals than is exerted at a Little League Baseball game to decide the regional Middle School champions of northeastern Idaho.
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Jun 20, 2014 19:54
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I don't think all you people who have just really started watching football 'get' it. It's *supposed* to be unfair, that's part of the...for lack of a better term 'magic' of the game. There's a reason people call it more of an art form than a sport.
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Jun 20, 2014 20:39
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A Tartan Tory posted:It's *supposed* to be unfair, that's part of the...for lack of a better term 'magic' of the game. No, it's not. The magic of the sport for me are the KO tournaments, in which a small team can beat a megabastard. Perfect refereeing would actually increase the chances of an upset, because most of the wrong calls favor the big teams. Not that complaining about the referee isn't fun, though.
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Jun 20, 2014 20:46
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Yeah, I watch the game to see Costa Rica be the real giant in the group of death, and for great, exciting games. Bad refereeing and corruption hurt that for me. I don't want to add more play stoppages, but a couple more refs on the field and one in the booth to check if an offside goal was actually offside, and strict post game punishment for diving or missed serious fouls would all help.
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Jun 20, 2014 21:55
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I assume it's down to how most of the soccer world has far more exposure to either their domestic league or one of the big European/South American leagues. I always know that bad calls against my team in the league will be offset by calls going for them later, it averages out over a season. It's different when you mostly watch the tournaments, especially in the knockout stages. Punishing people for diving after a match would be a very good idea though.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:00
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I watched the Italy/Costa Rica match just to see the last tattered remnants of Ingerland's hopes be swept away. (The commentators were quick to point out that this is the first time Ingerland have been knocked out of the World Cup this early since 1950something.)
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Jun 20, 2014 23:33
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This current World Cup owns, but ironically it's also the sort of thing that allows us to take a look at FM's crazy World Cups and say 'Holy crap, is FM right?' 
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Jun 20, 2014 23:38
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So 2 questions. 1) When would you not be allowed to withdraw players from international games? Now that you run the USMNT, it would look more suspicious when you pull the Rock and the Meteor from the Australian Squad before the U.S plays them. 2)How many possible trophies can Wrexham win including the unimportant ones? Currently I can think of 7, FA Cup, League Cup, Champions League, Premier League, Club World Cup, Community Shield and the Super Cup.
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Jun 20, 2014 23:43
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1) I don't believe you're allowed to withdraw international players from competitive matches- continental competitions (like the Gold Cup, which Mr. Brown will be dealing with, the World Cup, and assorted qualifiers). 2) I think that's about it, unless there's an obscure competition you and I are both forgetting. I suppose in theory if you wanted to get relegated down three levels, you could win League One, the Paint Trophy, the League Cup, FA Cup, Community Shield, UEFA Super Cup, Champions League, and Club World Cup.
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Jun 20, 2014 23:48
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habeasdorkus posted:Yeah, I watch the game to see Costa Rica be the real giant in the group of death, and for great, exciting games. I agree completely. These sorts of changes would eliminate 95% of all the major problems I should think, all without slowly the pace of the game. Obviously people are only human and calls will be missed or flubbed, but taking every possible measure against that short of altering the actual play of the game is the only reasonable option for contests of this scale and notoriety.
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Jun 20, 2014 23:59
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Sky Shadowing posted:This current World Cup owns, but ironically it's also the sort of thing that allows us to take a look at FM's crazy World Cups and say 'Holy crap, is FM right?' Yep. If Costa Rica won this group in FM we'd be saying "oh FM, you're so crazy" when they have a very good chance of doing just that IRL. Dreamsicle posted:So 2 questions. 1) I can do it for friendlies, but not for competitive matches. 2) You're forgetting the Cwp! But yeah, you've got it right.
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Jun 21, 2014 01:17
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Can you do a Wrexham - USMNT friendly?
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Jun 21, 2014 05:38
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Zip! posted:I'd also play stop clock rather than injury time to cut down on the amount of lovely time wasting you get in games but thats another story. JT Jag fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Jun 21, 2014 |
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Jun 21, 2014 06:30
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I don't know how likely this is, given that football's structure is a universal thing: in terms of rules, the World Cup final has to be played by the same structure as the part-timers Wrexham were when we started, and this in every FIFA member country. Think of the English leagues: the Premiership might want that, but seeing as they're in the same pyramid as the several thousand other clubs in the FA and could concievably play them in cups etc. they'd be unable to implement it on their own and unable to force it on the rest. Repeat this problem everywhere. A shift like that would completely annihilate the lower league teams that are made up of part-timers and amateurs, basically.
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Jun 21, 2014 06:40
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Obliterati posted:I don't know how likely this is, given that football's structure is a universal thing: in terms of rules, the World Cup final has to be played by the same structure as the part-timers Wrexham were when we started, and this in every FIFA member country. Think of the English leagues: the Premiership might want that, but seeing as they're in the same pyramid as the several thousand other clubs in the FA and could concievably play them in cups etc. they'd be unable to implement it on their own and unable to force it on the rest. Repeat this problem everywhere. Exactly. This rules lawyering seems to happen every world cup. The flow of the game without interruption is part of what makes the sport. That and the fact that anyone with a ball, some grass and some sticks for posts can play it. Post game review of of incidents is the only thing I'll say that we need. The FA or whatever league awards punishments for missed incidents or dives.
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Jun 21, 2014 06:49
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habeasdorkus posted:
Sicke fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Jun 21, 2014 |
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Jun 21, 2014 07:37
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I'm a season ticket holder, watch 24+ live matches a season and honestly refereeing as it is now is a huge part of the game and why it's so compelling. I can't explain it, but I would vehemently oppose adding extra refs on the pitch or stopping the clock gridiron style. That said, I would be behind video assistance for refs in certain situations and goal line tech is awesome! Changes like that, that don't stop the flow of the game, are infinitely more welcome than flooding the pitch with errorless refbots.
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Jun 21, 2014 16:49
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I'm against anything that stops the clock. My ideal changes would add some stoppage time in each half, but it generally wouldn't be much. But I completely agree that stopping the clock is a terrible, terrible idea and should never happen.Sicke posted:So wait you mean to tell me that you, a good patriotic American, haven't fully scooped out America looking for amazing talents for your club? There were some young Americans I've had my eye on, but none were good and cheap enough for me when we were coming up.
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Jun 21, 2014 16:52
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Here's video of the French team flying back to their hotel after they beat Switzerland. At 1:34, you can see Pogba playing himself in Football Manager.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUuXq8OVS3g
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Jun 21, 2014 19:32
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Franks Happy Place posted:Here's video of the French team flying back to their hotel after they beat Switzerland. At 1:34, you can see Pogba playing himself in Football Manager. Looks like he is playing Chelsea vs Arsenal, I thought he played with some lovely Italian team?
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Jun 21, 2014 19:40
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A Tartan Tory posted:Looks like he is playing Chelsea vs Arsenal, I thought he played with some lovely Italian team? Juventus is hardly lovely other than the whole 'constantly cheating' thing!, but I thought the implication was that he'd managed his career to take him to the EPL? The source I got the link from said it was him playing as himself, I just assumed they looked hard at the screen and spotted something identifiable. 
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Jun 21, 2014 20:30
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ForeverBWFC posted:I'm a season ticket holder, watch 24+ live matches a season and honestly refereeing as it is now is a huge part of the game and why it's so compelling. I can't explain it, but I would vehemently oppose adding extra refs on the pitch or stopping the clock gridiron style. I'm fine with leaving the structure of the game the way it is, not impeding the flow, as this is part of the charm of soccer, but I literally cannot fathom the notion that getting calls right is a bad thing. When the replacement referee debacle happened in the NFL, sixteen kinds of hell were raised on every single game. I've watched world cup elimination matches decided by a referee loving up a call that he would have gotten right with an extra pair of eyes on the field in the right place. Multiple times. And if that is actually the desired outcome, then I the entire sport occupies the same level of legitimacy as Professional Wrestling for all I'm concerned.
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Jun 21, 2014 22:22
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That's a bit hyperbolic.
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Jun 21, 2014 22:37
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Maaan, the second half of Ghana vs Germany was absolutely amazing. I really think there should be electronic assistance for referees, mostly because it would be a step in the right direction for reducing referee corruption. It's still waaaay too easy to make a 'mistake' and get away with it.
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Jun 21, 2014 22:45
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Festive Transvestite posted:That's a bit hyperbolic. Perhaps so. But I'll just point out that in the hour between me writing that post and this one, Bosnia had one of the most beautiful goals I've seen in a while disallowed by another flagrantly bad offsides call, a call which may well knock them out of the entire tournament. So you'll forgive me if I balk at the notion that getting those calls right would spoil the purity of the game.
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Jun 21, 2014 23:37
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Its really loving cool when people who have watched 5 football matches in their entire life come up with their totally original and not at all asinine suggestions on how to fix this terrible lovely broken sport that obviously doesn't work as well as college basketball. What fools we are for enjoying a sport less sophisticated than Korfball. Thank you brave trailblazers for showing us the error of our ways.
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Jun 21, 2014 23:37
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GenHavoc posted:Perhaps so. But I'll just point out that in the hour between me writing that post and this one, Bosnia had one of the most beautiful goals I've seen in a while disallowed by another flagrantly bad offsides call, a call which may well knock them out of the entire tournament. So you'll forgive me if I balk at the notion that getting those calls right would spoil the purity of the game. Yeah, gently caress that decision. That was a beautiful goal. I just hope Bosnia will be able to make a comeback in the next half. (EDIT: Nooooooope) Football trivia time: Do you know that the penalties are awarded based on the position of the fouling player, not the ball or the fouled player? A friend of mine works as a referee in a lot of matches between village teams, and that particular situation cropped up when a player grabbed a rock he found in the box and threw it at an opposing player half the field away.
my dad fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jun 22, 2014 |
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Jun 21, 2014 23:49
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Kuno posted:Its really loving cool when people who have watched 5 football matches in their entire life come up with their totally original and not at all asinine suggestions on how to fix this terrible lovely broken sport that obviously doesn't work as well as college basketball. What fools we are for enjoying a sport less sophisticated than Korfball. I really should break out that old '15 ways to improve Gridiron' post I made back in 1999 after watching about 10 games. I wish I could find that massive effort post about US sports fans liking 'statistical' stuff and most other countries sports fans liking 'heart' stuff. Was an interesting read. GenHavoc posted:Perhaps so. But I'll just point out that in the hour between me writing that post and this one, Bosnia had one of the most beautiful goals I've seen in a while disallowed by another flagrantly bad offsides call, a call which may well knock them out of the entire tournament. So you'll forgive me if I balk at the notion that getting those calls right would spoil the purity of the game. If you want to be taken seriously call it offside, not offsides which is an entirely different rule.  Calls go for and against you all the time, generally they even themselves out. It only adds to the excitement. There's nothing worse than not winning because of a bad call, but there's nothing better than winning because of a bad call as well! There are quite a few examples of both...my favourite is probably this one (for context, if Scotland drew this match, they would have qualified for a tournament) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQVpYvP4toc. Franks Happy Place posted:Juventus is hardly lovely other than the whole 'constantly cheating' thing!, but I thought the implication was that he'd managed his career to take him to the EPL? The source I got the link from said it was him playing as himself, I just assumed they looked hard at the screen and spotted something identifiable. I don't have a very good opinion of Italian football, for the spoilered reason you mention actually! A Tartan Tory fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jun 22, 2014 |
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Jun 22, 2014 00:29
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Kuno posted:Its really loving cool when people who have watched 5 football matches in their entire life come up with their totally original and not at all asinine suggestions on how to fix this terrible lovely broken sport that obviously doesn't work as well as college basketball. What fools we are for enjoying a sport less sophisticated than Korfball. It's even cooler when hipster douchebags decide to piss all over anyone who thinks that a referee being blind (or paid off) should not, ideally, be the deciding factor for the biggest sport on Earth. You're literally arguing that getting calls right is not only unimportant but bad for the sport. Give me a single reason why another referee in a skybox looking for Offside in the World Cup or similarly-statured tournaments is an "asinine idea", and I'll withdraw it. Otherwise gently caress off. A Tartan Tory posted:I really should break out that old '15 ways to improve Gridiron' post I made back in 1999 after watching about 10 games. Hey, go for it. US Football could certainly use a few changes as well. But what I'm proposing is a couple simple alterations that doesn't alter the flow of the game at all. I don't want timeouts, I don't want replay breaks, I don't want to turn the sport into something it's not. I just want to make sure that the calls that get made are right as often as possible. And I flat out don't understand not wanting that. A Tartan Tory posted:If you want to be taken seriously call it offside, not offsides which is an entirely different rule. Somehow I doubt that most Bosnians think what just happened was "exiciting". Their first-ever appearance in the World Cup, a brilliantly hard-fought loss against Argentina, and they get knocked out of the tournament completely on not one but two bullshit calls in succession. How exactly is that supposed to even itself out? Am I supposed to root for Nigeria to get similarly screwed in their next match? If this were an entire season, I could see your point, but every single goal in every single match is fantastically important in the World Cup, and these calls are the difference between winning and being sent home in disgrace. Bad calls are gonna happen, even if you stack the field with refs, I get that. But there is no earthly way that I will accept that what happened this afternoon was "ideal" and "working as intended". And if you're not going to take all reasonable measures to ensure that you're playing a fair game, then what the gently caress are any of us doing here? Because I don't accept for one instant that the purified essence of Soccer is a dice roll to see which team the refs are going to allow to win while some guys kick a ball in the background.
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Jun 22, 2014 01:39
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...So, hey, habeas, how about that next update? Getting a little warm in here.
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Jun 22, 2014 01:41
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GenHavoc posted:Because I don't accept for one instant that the purified essence of Soccer is a dice roll to see which team the refs are going to allow to win while some guys kick a ball in the background. Sounds a lot like Blood Bowl to me. Just replace "the refs" with "Nuffle", "a ball" with "other players", and there you go!
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Jun 22, 2014 01:50
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Hmm. Bosnia sure did get screwed by the referees today.
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Jun 22, 2014 01:57
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