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The "ARE FACTORIES" stuff might seem silly to you guys if you're not from a town that was built up around manufacturing and then had the rug pulled out from under it in the late 90s and early 2000s. Hell, my family would've been supremely hosed if GM had gone under. People care about things like NAFTA and "ARE FACTORIES" because that's where they worked, when their lives were decent, and now they're Wallmart cashiers, greeters, and stockers at age 55. Dystram fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jun 21, 2014 |
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Jun 21, 2014 06:29
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Dystram posted:The "ARE FACTORIES" stuff might seem silly to you guys if you're not from a town that was built up around manufacturing and then had the rug pulled out from under it in the early 90s and early 2000s. Hell, my family would've been supremely hosed if GM had gone under. Yeah. I grew up in Pontiac, which was thoroughly gutted by the departure of factories, moreso than even Detroit. It might sound odd but it's a serious issue to the subset of the population it destroyed.
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Jun 21, 2014 06:41
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Beamed posted:Yeah. I grew up in Pontiac, which was thoroughly gutted by the departure of factories, moreso than even Detroit. It might sound odd but it's a serious issue to the subset of the population it destroyed. And it cemented in the minds of many hatred for Clinton, and that the Democrats are just corporate shill sellouts. Yeah, NAFTA was the GOP's baby, but given our citizen's lack of civics knowledge, they just blamed it totally on Clinton and the Dems.
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Jun 21, 2014 07:14
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ReindeerF posted:I dunno, the entire world, some of the gay press and this forum constantly joke about Lindsey Graham being a closeted gay dude who has a huge crush on John McCain entirely because of his mannerisms, so making fun of Southern dandies for being closet queens because of their effeminate mannerisms isn't exactly an OMG moment in reality. Has anyone ever thrown a fit at the deluge of Graham jokes that go on around here? No. I think the issue is that it's so out of left field for Cantor, who isn't publicly viewed that way as Graham is, and then he goes on to talk about his gaydar calibration rate, etc, heh. Add all the separate comments about gaydar and Southern gay men and women with their skirts over their knees together and, yeah, Schweitzer really stepped in it for absolutely no gain. Stupid of him.
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Jun 21, 2014 08:27
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skaboomizzy posted:It would be great if we could push a message like "If you want cheap disposable crap that breaks when you look at it wrong, buy Chinese. If you want to help put Americans to work and buy something durable and high-quality, cough up a little extra and buy American." As already stated, this is just not true. You can buy cheap, shoddily put together stuff out of China extremely cheap. You can also buy very well put together, high quality stuff out of China for a reasonable amount of money (still cheaper than elsewhere). This idea that China doesn't know how to make good stuff is just nonsense (and probably a little racist). It's a big place. They make a whole range of stuff to a whole range of quality standards. If you buy things at three cents a unit, don't expect them to have rigorous quality control, but that's got nothing to do with it being made in China.
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Jun 21, 2014 08:48
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SedanChair posted:Yeah the quality difference is gone, sorry. Just from personal experience, Baofeng radios and Lepai amplifiers are both really great pieces of kit. A lot of the cheaper Chinese electronics are shoddy but it's no worse than the cheaper US versions would have been anyways. I'm not really convinced that a larger manufacturing base in the US would make a whole lot of a difference when you're still going to be assfucked as a low wage worker regardless of the employment position as unions and worker solidarity dwindle into the void. Seems like more of position to stoke nationalistic tendencies without much merit, or even anything as effective as reducing food, oil, and related prices by fixing distortions to the market seen in the last couple decades of finance deregulation. Dystram posted:The "ARE FACTORIES" stuff might seem silly to you guys if you're not from a town that was built up around manufacturing and then had the rug pulled out from under it in the late 90s and early 2000s. Hell, my family would've been supremely hosed if GM had gone under. I don't think it's fair to assume that every factory job would be any better today than Walmart-type jobs are, although your point about direct effects shaping perspective on the issue still stands. esto es malo fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Jun 21, 2014 |
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Jun 21, 2014 14:25
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There was mention of the automation apocalypse already happening, but we're experience a rebirth of those fears with the growth of some very sophisticated software that allows us to automate tasks that previously no one would even dream of making machine only. The retail food sector could probably already be automated, but attempts to do that so far have resulted in putting off customers.
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Jun 21, 2014 14:29
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Hopefully we automate to robots the position of fearing an economy not based on full employment as if everyone needs to work themselves to death to afford basic needs and the few wants afforded by low wage labor.
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Jun 21, 2014 14:31
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TheBalor posted:There was mention of the automation apocalypse already happening, but we're experience a rebirth of those fears with the growth of some very sophisticated software that allows us to automate tasks that previously no one would even dream of making machine only. The retail food sector could probably already be automated, but attempts to do that so far have resulted in putting off customers. We could probably automate a lot of higher-earning jobs as well. Managers replaced with drinky-birds, Congress could be replaced with a broken clock (and probably have better results, too). Pass those savings on to the consumer. Or our corporate masters; whatever works.
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Jun 21, 2014 14:40
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Berke Negri posted:Not to mention with onshoring back to Mexico (shocker now that gas isnt dirt cheap it is easier to just truck it across state lines than to ship it across the pacific) it brings into question what "local jobs" are if half a family is in one country and the rest is in manufacturing in the other. This is the true future of globalization. Less "what about the factory in Trenton?" than "Kino, Sonora" it will be extremely disruptive, but in the end that is the way forward. Shipping is always going to be cheaper per ton by boat, it's not really a comparison. If I had to guess any factories that are in Mexico now are things that aren't produced in high volumes so the added shipping price is offset by the low volume. joeburz posted:Hopefully we automate to robots the position of fearing an economy not based on full employment as if everyone needs to work themselves to death to afford basic needs and the few wants afforded by low wage labor. They will, just probably not in the short term. Though the current issues you're seeing now are not based in automating (at least not primarily), it's a result of being understaffed. Companies think they can get by with the minimum and that any increase in labor costs will cost them more than it's worth. In some cases that's true but in a lot of cases it was a "cost saving measure" that long term actually costs them more money. The good-ish news is that it's sort of a cascading effect - once a business realizes it can make a lot more money by hiring more people, other businesses will follow eventually. computer parts fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Jun 21, 2014 |
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Jun 21, 2014 14:40
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computer parts posted:They will, just probably not in the short term. Though the current issues you're seeing now are not based in automating (at least not primarily), it's a result of being understaffed. Companies think they can get by with the minimum and that any increase in labor costs will cost them more than it's worth. In some cases that's true but in a lot of cases it was a "cost saving measure" that long term actually costs them more money. The problem is that even business owners or high level managers are not rational actors in that sense. It will happen, but it's a slow process because personal idiocy or politics definitely shape business behavior to a discernible degree despite whatever bullshit libertarians try to handwave with the free market wisdom jedi mind trick.
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Jun 21, 2014 14:53
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Yeah the one thing I notice everywhere (including where I work) is that basically every company now is fine with being understaffed, even if it hurts productivity, because it's ultimately cheaper for them than adding those jobs they previously cut during the recession back.
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Jun 21, 2014 15:09
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I like how the decline of the American producer is a 90s-00s thing...my family has been losing/buying/losing/losing/LOL ADM in the farm economy since the 20s. The consolidation factor is new, however. I found a bunch of old copies of Progressive Farmer (not progressive in the political sense, as in "new ways t yield more alfalfa stock") at my dad's recently and that got him on a kick about the advent of the mass production factory hog farm in the 80s. He's not the usual person who bitches about factory farms. People always focus now on the PETA stuff. We talk about its effect on animals, but what it really killed was smallholders in the upper South. It was a lot harder and rarer for corporate consolidation to happen from the 1910s to the 80s. For food production, outsourcing is more difficult, especially for fresh foods. That has been as bad as anything for middle America. Towns were built around providing service to multiple farm families. Now even those still in farming work for ADM or Cargill and have no need for the feed stores because production is so tightly controlled. De Nomolos fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Jun 21, 2014 |
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Jun 21, 2014 16:42
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TheBalor posted:There was mention of the automation apocalypse already happening, but we're experience a rebirth of those fears with the growth of some very sophisticated software that allows us to automate tasks that previously no one would even dream of making machine only. The retail food sector could probably already be automated, but attempts to do that so far have resulted in putting off customers. Do we have numbers for that? I loving love self-checkout.
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Jun 21, 2014 17:50
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R.I.P. Rand Paul's chance at winning the tea party
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Jun 21, 2014 18:01
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I really hope he runs, stays in til the June convention in hopes of getting something out of it, misses the KY primary, and has to go work for his dad's Ron Paul Institute for the Criminally Insane when he flunks out of the Senate.
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Jun 21, 2014 18:18
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Full Battle Rattle posted:[Shep Smith] looks like Leland Palmer... This landed with an almost-audible thunk in my brain. How can I have failed to see it for so many years?!?
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Jun 21, 2014 18:22
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I hope he runs for the presidency every election cycle, just like his dad. 
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Jun 21, 2014 18:29
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Amy Klobuchar is speaking to the NV Democratic Convention today. Harry Reid cut a video for the event in which he says he has "no doubt she has the ability to be President some day." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ychwt_fBTKU
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Jun 21, 2014 19:49
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Joementum posted:Amy Klobuchar is speaking to the NV Democratic Convention today. Harry Reid cut a video for the event in which he says he has "no doubt she has the ability to be President some day." lol i loving hope not http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/klobuchar-escalates-push-to-repeal-obamacare-tax
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Jun 21, 2014 20:00
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mdemone posted:This landed with an almost-audible thunk in my brain. How can I have failed to see it for so many years?!? Weird. I remember male fox news hosts by naming them after whatever homunculus form they have been twisted into. Like the scary scarecrow man on fox and friends, who I'm pretty sure is coming to get me. Or Megyn Kelly, whom I refer to as 'The Undying.'
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Jun 21, 2014 20:41
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Dystram posted:lol i loving hope not http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/klobuchar-escalates-push-to-repeal-obamacare-tax That's actually pretty reasonable, given she's from Minnesota. Why Amy Klobuchar, D-MN, wants to repeal a medical device tax posted:Medtronic, Inc., headquartered in suburban Minneapolis,[1] is the world's fourth largest [2] medical device company and is a Fortune 500 company. That said, she's a horrible human being personally and would be a terrible president, so I'm with you on the hoping not.
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Jun 21, 2014 20:44
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Genuine question: what's the public policy rationale for such a large tax on medical devices? Are they a malus that we want people to consome fewer of?
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Jun 21, 2014 20:47
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Full Battle Rattle posted:Weird. I remember male fox news hosts by naming them after whatever homunculus form they have been twisted into. Like the scary scarecrow man on fox and friends, who I'm pretty sure is coming to get me. You mean not-Steve Doocy?
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Jun 21, 2014 20:48
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Pinterest Mom posted:Genuine question: what's the public policy rationale for such a large tax on medical devices? Are they a malus that we want people to consome fewer of? The logic was something along the lines of "ACA coverage will result in more usage of medical devices, we need to pay for some parts of the ACA, thus, tax medical devices." It's not a great idea - it certainly isn't this huge problem for med device companies that it's made out to be, but there's really not a great reason to impose the tax, either (other than budget-neutrality gimmicks.)
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Jun 21, 2014 20:51
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Pinterest Mom posted:Genuine question: what's the public policy rationale for such a large tax on medical devices? Are they a malus that we want people to consome fewer of? The medical devices covered are generally very expensive things bought by healthcare companies making tons of money; and the law makes specific exemption from the tax for medical devices normally sold at retail; as well as specific exemptions for eyeglasses, contact lenses, and hearing aids. Meanwhile things like wheelchairs, bandages, and even those special medical adjustable beds are exempt (though for the last, only ones sold for home use). Meanwhile an NMR machine or x ray systems are not exempt.
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Jun 21, 2014 20:58
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Kalman posted:That's actually pretty reasonable, given she's from Minnesota. But Medtronic isn't based in Minnesota any more (pending shareholder approval) 
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Jun 21, 2014 21:54
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ComradeCosmobot posted:But Medtronic isn't based in Minnesota any more (pending shareholder approval) Doesn't really matter, they're still a huge employer there (9k people or so?) and for all practical purposes they're still headquartered there - the Dublin thing is primarily for tax purposes.
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Jun 21, 2014 23:49
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Kalman posted:Doesn't really matter, they're still a huge employer there (9k people or so?) and for all practical purposes they're still headquartered there - the Dublin thing is primarily for tax purposes.  It's indicative of the sort of corporatist Democrat Klobuchar very well may be if she's beholden to a company that's playing such shenanigans in order to avoid paying taxes.
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Jun 22, 2014 02:28
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ComradeCosmobot posted:
So, a normal Democrat? I don't think she's attached to the corporation so much as the large number of high end jobs it provides Minnesota residents. If they moved those jobs, she'd be the first to complain. (She is good at complaining.) There are tons of reasons to dislike Klobuchar - her trying to help out a company that's a major employer in her state isn't one of them.
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Jun 22, 2014 02:33
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Kalman posted:So, a normal Democrat? Basically, yes. But it's true her support for repealing the device tax may not necessarily be indicative of support for the foreign tax repatriation holiday because, let's be honest, everyone on Capitol Hill wants to see that happen.
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Jun 22, 2014 02:36
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ComradeCosmobot posted:Basically, yes. But it's true her support for repealing the device tax may not necessarily be indicative of support for the foreign tax repatriation holiday because, let's be honest, everyone on Capitol Hill wants to see that happen. Because it worked as planned in 2004!  (For those that don't know, the public justification given by Barbara Boxer, et al was 'bring back jobs!' and, to the shock of no one, the companies issued nice dividends/stock buybacks while laying off some more people)
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Jun 22, 2014 02:39
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Dystram posted:lol i loving hope not http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/klobuchar-escalates-push-to-repeal-obamacare-tax Minnesota is home to a few major medical device companies. One big issue with the tax is that a significant percentage of medical devices are purchased by the government through medicare, medicaide and the VA, so it makes no sense for the government to tax itself. :v Pacemakers are like 80%, defibrillators are a bit over 50% bought by government health insurance. Edit: At my dad's company anyway, the government is their single largest payer by far. Silver Nitrate fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Jun 22, 2014 |
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Jun 22, 2014 02:45
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Silver Nitrate posted:Minnesota is home to a few major medical device companies. One big issue with the tax is that the majority of medical devices are purchased by the government through medicare, medicaide and the VA, so it makes no sense for the government to tax itself. :v The main thing going for it was that it was relatively unobtrusive and thus could get enough support in both houses to get passed.
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Jun 22, 2014 02:50
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ComradeCosmobot posted:
It's not indicative of anything at all, actually.
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Jun 22, 2014 03:46
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Hey, since Hillary Clinton's candidacy is a Big Topic in this thread and talk of her memoir occurred a while back (brought up by me, admittedly), I thought I'd give an appraisal of it as I've managed to get about 150ish pages into it since picking it up from the library the other day. Honestly? It's a fair bit bland. It's good if you want an 'insider' account of stuff that occurred during Obama's first term from the State Dept perspective/role (such as the Obama Admin's pivot toward Asia (spearheaded by Clinton, of course), Burma/Myanmar's baby steps toward democracy, and Obama's initial decisions on how to handle the Afghanistan War), but aside from that, there's not much interesting in it. Someone here said that it'd be very non-controversial, and they were right. Clinton uses patriotic American rhetoric a fair bit (like talking about America's values of freedom, justice, and fairness, and how they're central to the country and to her conception of herself as a person, citizen and public servant). Also, as this is most likely being used as a way to make her look good in preparation for her 2016 run, the book omits any professional faults or flaws she may have. Again, not surprising. So, it's a good basic insider account, but aside from that, not much else, unless you're sincerely interested in Clinton's perspective on the Obama Administration's foreign policy and inner-workings during her time as SecState (or at least, the perspective she wants to convey to the public). Then again, one thing I did take away from it - how a President's success and policy is the result of a number of different actors working in concert together, whose results are then attributed to the President and shape his/her presidency. An example is how Chen Guangchen, a Chinese activist and dissident, in 2012 sought refuge at the US Embassy in Beijing. Clinton got called at home in the middle of the night, got briefed, and after some discussion in a conference call, made the decision for him to be given sanctuary in the Embassy. The White House found out about it in the morning. Had the Chinese made a huge stink about it and made it into a huge embarassing international incident over it, it's plausible to assume that Obama would have taken the heat for it. So, if you read between the lines, you get some interesting insight into how presidential administration 'teams' work together as one body, and consequently why it's very important that a President pick the right people for his/her cabinet and staff. So, yeah, 'Hard Choices' by Hillary Clinton. Check it out if you're interested.
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Jun 26, 2014 02:30
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mdemone posted:This landed with an almost-audible thunk in my brain. How can I have failed to see it for so many years?!? "And now let's go to BOB at the news desk." *pause, camera doesn't shift* "Thanks, Shep."
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Jun 26, 2014 15:17
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You generally want your A team in the top spots, even if sometimes their actions could blow up in your face. You put your Yes Men and major donors in harmless positions like Ambassador to France or something.
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Jun 26, 2014 15:17
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notthegoatseguy posted:You generally want your A team in the top spots, even if sometimes their actions could blow up in your face. You put your Yes Men and major donors in harmless positions like Ambassador to France or something.
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Jun 26, 2014 17:45
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FMguru posted:Usually its all those little Caribbean islands. Bundle $4.3 million in donations to the winning President, get appointed Ambassador to St. Kitts. And usually this isn't a problem, because how many serious international incidents are going to occur between the United States and St. Kitts? As long as you go to all the right parties and shake the right hands, ambassador gigs in small, peaceful countries are not that difficult.
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