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GenHavoc posted:Hey, go for it. US Football could certainly use a few changes as well. But what I'm proposing is a couple simple alterations that doesn't alter the flow of the game at all. I don't want timeouts, I don't want replay breaks, I don't want to turn the sport into something it's not. I just want to make sure that the calls that get made are right as often as possible. And I flat out don't understand not wanting that. Football is inherently conservative, let me begin with saying that. You make decent points why technology should be implemented but let me give you the main reason why it wont (because it wont be, ever). You allow video replays, but where does it end? Replays by their inherent nature stop the flow of the game like football. The referee would have to spend 20-30 seconds reviewing decisions which at best case would add like 10 minutes to every injury time and nobody wants that. Maybe a limited challenge system like they have in tennis for the most contentious calls, but that just straight up wont happen because FIFA wont want to be seen as messing with the beautiful game as it would stop things like quick counter-attacks by teams employing their challenges strategically. They were even basically split like 50/50 even on goal-line technology that the referee doesn't even have direct access to and there are some that want to repeal that in favour of the '5 referee system' used in UEFA. If there was a way to make sure the referee got decisions correct most if not all of the time, without interfering with the flow of the game, it would be implemented. Nobody has found one yet. There is also the culture (which I am part of) that sees bad and good decisions against you as kind of like karma. Bosnian fans for example, will be pissed tonight, but to be quite frank, the only reason they qualified was due to extreme luck in their group draw which produced the most fantastically easy group seen in at least 2 decades for UEFA qualifying, so they can hardly complain seeing as they probably shouldn't have been there in the first place. Bad calls are not ideal, I don't think anyone will dispute that, but they are essentially working as intended in the current state of the game. If you can find a way to fix it, I'm sure FIFA would love to hire you on retainer for gently caress tonnes of that Qatar money.
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Jun 22, 2014 02:35
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A Tartan Tory posted:Football is inherently conservative, let me begin with saying that. You make decent points why technology should be implemented but let me give you the main reason why it wont (because it wont be, ever). Oh, I agree that these changes will never happen. All sports are conservative, and Soccer moreso than most, which is probably simply a factor of its size. Implementing anything at a body as broad (and corrupt) as FIFA is like trying to meaningfully alter the orbit of Jupiter. But that's just it, I wasn't arguing for video replays. I wasn't arguing for challenge flags. I wasn't arguing for breaking the game's flow up at all. I was arguing for adding another referee or two, one specifically to watch for offside, and perhaps another to assist the head referee in a more general capacity. Changes that have nothing to do with the flow of the game or stopping it or anything else that you just objected to. And I'm sorry, I cannot accept that everything possible to do is already being done when the mere addition of a goalline detection system was only implemented THIS YEAR after several of the most blatant officiating cock-ups in the history of sport, and even then over a razor-thin majority approval against violent opposition. And that's a technology that does NONE of the things you just cited as being detrimental to the game. Why shouldn't there be a man in a skybox watching for Offside calls? What damage would that do to the fabric of the game? Take me down that slippery slope, if that's the concern, because I don't see it. As to this karmic notion of it all evens out because Bosnia shouldn't have been there in the first place? My first thought on reading that is "change the rules for how the qualifying groups are set" not "well the rules let them squeak in so let's gently caress them out of their matches in the real cup". Bosnia qualified for the World Cup based on the rules FIFA set for doing so. If those rules suck, change them. But I while I get that over the course of a season or many tournements or whatever these things do tend to even out, that doesn't change the fact that in a do-or-die match, there's no excuse for failing to get it right when the resources to do so are right there, and won't change the game a whit. If you see some kind of virtue in the way the game is presently officiated... well I mean I can't exactly gainsay you. But I don't understand it, not even in theory. If that means I'm bad at being a soccer fan then so be it, but I prefer my games be officiated properly, even when it's my team being helped. I assumed that was true of all sports fans. There's nothing revolutionary in what I'm suggesting, I'm well aware. So then why hasn't it been done? If it's institutional inertia, I understand. But then let's not pretend it's actually some concern for the game's integrity. That might apply to video reviews, but not to another referee or three.
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Jun 22, 2014 03:45
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Well, putting a dude up in a skybox doesn't make much of a difference, really. You need to be parallel to the last defender to tell if someone's offside or not. Being up above gives you a better overall view, but it screws up with that, usually you see the pitch at an angle. So you'd have referees butting heads and the call on the ground would probably stand anyway. Extra referees on the pitch could be interesting, but there are already three watching the game at all times, and it's very rare that an infraction occurs away from wherever the ball is. Maybe an extra pair of eyes could make easier to tell some legit fouls from flops, but then again, one of the refs would have to make the final call and if he fucks up, well... When it comes down to it, soccer is just amazingly hard to referee. Think basketball, except far more lenient when it comes to physical contact, with double the players, and the clock never stops so implementing reviews. I actually think that the "fuckups are part of the game" line of thinking isn't something to appreciate, you just learn to tolerate it. I also think FIFA is too conservative when it comes to electronic aids, and taking the time to review penalty and offside calls is worth the small loss in flow of game - the whistle was already blown and the players already spend two minutes crowding the ref anyway. However, many of the game-changing calls are non-calls, and there aren't any easy solutions to those.
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Jun 22, 2014 04:33
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Putting the skybox perpendicular to the field would help with the angle-of-view issue, but yes, I see your point. None of these are panaceas of course. And maybe you're right and it wouldn't really help all that much. But it might. More referees might allow for more specialization as to what people are looking for, the way the crew at an NFL game has. And if it did help, even a little bit, in preventing bad calls, or reducing non-calls or even just spotting diving a bit easier, it would do so without screwing with the game's essence or adding artificial time breaks, etc. And that's worth it, in my mind. Look, I'm not saying anything that new, I get it. But there's a reason this refrain keeps coming up. There is no way the current state of officiating in soccer is actually as good as it possibly gets. They literally just fought a change through this year. Over massive objections. For a technology that doesn't impede the game a whit. There's really NOTHING else that would help even a little?
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Jun 22, 2014 05:11
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Could you implement some sort of challenge system, where doing so (whether or not the challenge ruled in your favour) cost you a substitution? Perhaps even make it tougher, such that if you challenged and the ruling went against you, it cost you either a 2nd substitution or -- if you didn't have any remaining -- you were penalized a player. Basically, the idea is to make a challenge system available, but also to make it costly enough that it would only be used to correct the worst failures, thus having minimal impact on the flow of the game.
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Jun 22, 2014 05:40
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What we all need to remember is that bad calls and corruption are vital to the enjoyment of the sport. They give drunken hooligans something to physically assault opposing fans over while screaming racial slurs.
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Jun 22, 2014 05:55
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No, because how do you challenge anything at all? The ref sees what he sees, you're just wasting time to yell at him. I don't know if a ref has ever reversed a decision in a game, although a few have lost their jobs for doing poorly. Anything that stops play goes against FIFA's policy, and doesn't please fans either. There's no system that is going to stop poor calls. Skybox man has his own pov. Roving robots have their own pov, and their own programming. A fifth official is just going to be another person making calls except they'll sometimes conflict with the linesman (Whose job is to watch for offside players btw) and watching officials argue is the worst thing in the world.
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Jun 22, 2014 06:08
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The 'things even out over the long haul' is really a terrible argument for world cup games where most individual players have one or two chances to play ever, and most small nations have a once in a generation shot at making a run. And I'm not sure how UEFA qualifying is relevant, the low seed in Pot A and Pot B should mathematically end up in the same group once every nine years. Belgium getting through in a group against Croatia, Serbia, Scotland, Wales, and Macedonia is just about as easy a path.
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Jun 22, 2014 06:14
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GenHavoc posted:There's nothing revolutionary in what I'm suggesting, I'm well aware. So then why hasn't it been done? If it's institutional inertia, I understand. But then let's not pretend it's actually some concern for the game's integrity. That might apply to video reviews, but not to another referee or three. UEFA has trialled a five referee system in the Champions League for a few years now and there have been just as many blown calls, partly because the head referee has final say and partly because of the problem of multiple points of view that we've mentioned before. The Laws of the Game - particularly ones that have to do with fouls and offside - are often highly dependent on the interpretation of the referee. Is the player that's offside interfering with play? Was the tackle dangerous, even if the defender got the ball? Was a goal scoring opportunity denied? There was contact, but did the striker go down TOO easily, or is it actually a foul? One of the problems with more refs is that there are more different answers to these questions and then you still have to break up the game and spend time figuring out what is what. And if you give all the refs the same amount of power, then you run into the same kind of problems that you run into with a dual ref system, where one ref gives a foul but the other doesn't and then who takes precedence? Also, this is always, ALWAYS a loving stupid discussion to have because no-one will ever agree on a solution. i81icu812 posted:And I'm not sure how UEFA qualifying is relevant, the low seed in Pot A and Pot B should mathematically end up in the same group once every nine years. Belgium getting through in a group against Croatia, Serbia, Scotland, Wales, and Macedonia is just about as easy a path. Croatia and Serbia are good teams, and Wales currently has one of the best players in the world playing for them. I'm not sure how that's an easy group?
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Jun 22, 2014 08:49
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:I don't know if a ref has ever reversed a decision in a game, although a few have lost their jobs for doing poorly. Only time I can think of off the top of my head is Miroslav Klose scoring a goal with his hand and admitting it to the ref, so the ref overturned the decision and shook his hand. Refs usually know they've hosed up but they can't really change their mind because they'd be punished and maybe even permanently demoted.
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Jun 22, 2014 10:22
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An Actual Bear posted:Only time I can think of off the top of my head is Miroslav Klose scoring a goal with his hand and admitting it to the ref, so the ref overturned the decision and shook his hand A couple of times a player has gone down in the box, the Ref gave a penalty and then the player told the Ref it wasn't a foul. Robbie Fowler did it in a game, but the Ref didn't change his mind and Liverpool scored from the penalty (a rebound, as it happened). Google tells me that the Ref in a Bundesliga match in March changed his mind after the player admitted diving.
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Jun 22, 2014 11:40
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Man. This thread is starting to feel like something out of SAS.
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Jun 22, 2014 12:25
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Yeah two pages of new posts and it's all loving nerds arguing about referees and no actual thread content. Please go to the ENTIRE SUBFORUM devoted to arguing about soccer and don't ruin this excellent thread please
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Jun 22, 2014 13:49
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BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:Yeah two pages of new posts and it's all loving nerds arguing about referees and no actual thread content. Please go to the ENTIRE SUBFORUM devoted to arguing about soccer and don't ruin this excellent thread please On the one hand that would be good on the other hand TRP is pretty toxic. I can understand why people would prefer to talk about it here, but then, this really isn't where it's supposed to be and I'd prefer reading LP updates too. 
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Jun 22, 2014 16:40
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I wonder if Brown has a plaque on his door saying "Whoever believeth in me shall not perish but have everlasting first-team spots."
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Jun 22, 2014 23:32
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:There's no system that is going to stop poor calls. Skybox man has his own pov. Roving robots have their own pov, and their own programming. A fifth official is just going to be another person making calls except they'll sometimes conflict with the linesman (Whose job is to watch for offside players btw) and watching officials argue is the worst thing in the world. This is insane. Why have refs at all then if we're just gonna throw our hands up and pretend that no call can ever be good? Of course everyone has their own POV, but the point of adding people is to minimize the effect that one person's POV has on the game. Watching officials argue is not fun, but having your team knocked out of the world cup on a poo poo call, knowing that they are not going to get back for a generation or two is a hell of a lot worse. If what everyone's saying about adding extra men not working is true, then fine, we'll see about adding something else, but I have seen so many other sports get a lot out of extra eyes on the field by further delineating responsibility without endlessly stopping play that I'm skeptical it would have no effect. But again, if it's been tried, then it's been tried. I can't speak to results I don't know about. At the same time though, getting these calls right either matters or it doesn't. If it does matter, then it's only reasonable to try anything to make the calls better. And if it doesn't matter, then why bother pretending the tournament has any validity at all? BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:Yeah two pages of new posts and it's all loving nerds arguing about referees and no actual thread content. Please go to the ENTIRE SUBFORUM devoted to arguing about soccer and don't ruin this excellent thread please Yes, instead we should sit in monastic silence while waiting for the next update instead of talking about soccer in the thread about soccer. The next update, I have every faith, will come, when it comes, regardless of whether we talk about Soccer for three pages or say nothing at all. So enough with the "RUINED EVERYTHING" histrionics please, whenever someone dares speak about the biggest soccer tournament on Earth that happens to be going on right now? GenHavoc fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Jun 23, 2014 |
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Jun 23, 2014 01:51
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This is not a thread about soccer. This is a Let's Play of Football Manager 2014, starring Scott Brown and Wrexham. All that nonsense had nothing to do with the game or the LP.
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Jun 23, 2014 02:02
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And by bringing the subject of soccer into it, we have plainly doomed the thread, the sub-forum, and indeed the internet itself. The apple has been bitten, and man has fallen from grace, cast from the Garden of LP Eden to wander the world in hardship and death until the end of time. All that awaits us now is the blackness of eternal Tacklefordian night, a lifetime of suffering in the absence of Wrexham and God, all of the eons to come, spent lamenting the evil hour in which a man in the throes of excitement about the World Cup dared open a thread about Football Manager 2014, and post about soccer. Pray for us, LP denizens. Pray for us all. GenHavoc fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jun 23, 2014 |
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Jun 23, 2014 02:08
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It's less the topic of soccer and more posts like that.
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Jun 23, 2014 02:09
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Welp, guess I just ruined everything then. 
GenHavoc fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jun 23, 2014 |
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Jun 23, 2014 02:18
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So, HD, when was the last time Scott Brown showed up at tackleford not wearing pants and bragging about being the Premier League? Obviously needs to happen again.
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Jun 23, 2014 02:59
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Cool your heels, folks. Got a lot of reports from this thread, and for now I'll pass on probating. There's no need to rip eachother's heads off.
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Jun 23, 2014 03:31
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I love how lately there's more discussion of the LP in the TRP FM thread than in the actual LP thread. And by "I love" I mean I loving hate it, both halves of "it".
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Jun 23, 2014 04:36
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When I said I ruined everything, I didn't think I was being literal... Actually I blame Tackleford.
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Jun 26, 2014 02:13
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I noticed you haven't updated for the last 4 days - is this LP dead?
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Jun 26, 2014 02:38
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Mad Wack posted:I noticed you haven't updated for the last 4 days - is this LP dead? The forums have been down the past four days. Just came back up half an hour ago...
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Jun 26, 2014 02:40
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Plus watching the World Cup takes a lot of time, especially in the last round of knockout matches.
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Jun 26, 2014 02:45
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Plus I was in Kentucky for a wedding from last Tuesday until yesterday. I've clearly spoiled all of you.  eta: I don't mind soccer chat on the thread, this is a game that tries to simulate what the game is like on a worldwide scale. But I am amused at the amount of poo poo I get on TRP telling me to go back to Let's Play and that I clearly know nothing about the sport while on here people are getting irritated that we're talking about the real life sport. Don't expect an update tomorrow, I plan on being blind drunk by 2pm after the Germany v. USA match to either be able to ecstatically wet myself over moving onto the knockout stage or furiously tip over some cars if friggin Ghana knocks us out for the third World Cup in a row. habeasdorkus fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Jun 26, 2014 |
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Jun 26, 2014 02:46
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inSTAALed posted:The forums have been down the past four days. Just came back up half an hour ago... I'm pretty sure  .
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Jun 26, 2014 02:47
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habeasdorkus posted:Plus I was in Kentucky for a wedding. You actually got me to fire up FM 2014 and proceed to run Wrexham into the ground. (Actually we did pretty good! Made it to the Championship before my team stalled out.)
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Jun 26, 2014 02:48
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:I'm pretty sure When the comedy forum goes down for that long, there are no more jokes.
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Jun 26, 2014 02:48
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GenHavoc posted:And by bringing the subject of soccer into it, we have plainly doomed the thread, the sub-forum, and indeed the internet itself. The apple has been bitten, and man has fallen from grace, cast from the Garden of LP Eden to wander the world in hardship and death until the end of time. All that awaits us now is the blackness of eternal Tacklefordian night, a lifetime of suffering in the absence of Wrexham and God, all of the eons to come, spent lamenting the evil hour in which a man in the throes of excitement about the World Cup dared open a thread about Football Manager 2014, and post about soccer. oh my god shut up BEHOLD: MY CAPE fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Jun 26, 2014 |
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Jun 26, 2014 03:30
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Since the forums were down I finally decided to read Brian Phillips' Pro Vercelli LP and all I want is a Pro Verceilli vs Wrexham match. Also, I still haven't found the time to get into FM but I'm very tempted to start with an LLM playthrough instead of starting easy. I expect to get sacked so I just want to know how many times I can get fired before I become viewed as toxic. (I'm also feel masochistic since I decided to play on a Tier 8 side) EDIT: I'd also like to know the process of going from amateur to semipro to professional. I plan on playing an amateur side once I get my semi-pro team into the Football League. Dreamsicle fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Jun 26, 2014 |
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Jun 26, 2014 03:34
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I started an LLM save with Concord Rangers in Skrill South. It's been going okay. Can only sign players to part-time contracts.
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Jun 26, 2014 03:58
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Dreamsicle posted:Since the forums were down I finally decided to read Brian Phillips' Pro Vercelli LP and all I want is a Pro Verceilli vs Wrexham match. It seems to be up to the board from what I've seen. There's speculation on the FM boards that it's tied into finances and level of play but there's anecdotal examples that disagree.
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Jun 26, 2014 04:22
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So I know English soccer has like thirty levels to it or some ridiculous number, from Arsenal and Manchester U down to a bunch of drinking buddies who kick a ball around in the parking lot behind the pub. How far down this rabbit hole does the game let you go?
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Jun 26, 2014 08:04
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Without mods? 6 levels down, i.e. Skrill Regional (N/S), then there's Skrill Premier, League 2, League 1, Championship and Premiership.
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Jun 26, 2014 08:46
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Technically speaking, the game also simulates to a much lesser degree the next level down (the topmost leagues of the Northern, Southern, and Isthmian leagues) so that the game can pull teams up to replace relegated Skrill N/S teams. You can look at them in the system, but they don't have signable, "real" players and you can't control them. Also in checking this I just discovered that one of my local teams got promoted up to the Conference at the end of this season and I managed to miss it. I guess that means I'll be getting FM '15 as soon as it comes out. Revenant Threshold fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Jun 26, 2014 |
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Jun 26, 2014 10:42
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My favorite team is in the Russian Premier League! They are gonna get sssssooooooooooo regulated.
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Jun 26, 2014 13:24
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Eifert Posting posted:My favorite team is in the Russian Premier League! They are gonna get sssssooooooooooo regulated. Relegated, or regulated???
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Jun 26, 2014 13:26
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