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Neddy Seagoon posted:G-Reco's played straight the whole way through, right up until the climax of the final battle... and the words BATTLE ENDED appear in the sky... That'd be some MGS2-level mindfuckery. Besides, isn't the BF Universe considered Gundam Heaven from all the dead character cameos? 
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Jun 28, 2014 02:51
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Neddy Seagoon posted:G-Reco's played straight the whole way through, right up until the climax of the final battle... and the words BATTLE ENDED appear in the sky... Pans out, reveals to all have been part of the Arian Gunpla Battle League.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:51
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Pretty sure Tomino would shiv an executive or two if they tried to make him run a tie-in with the show that's specifically about marketing model kits.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:56
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Mecha Gojira posted:Pretty sure Tomino would shiv an executive or two if they tried to make him run a tie-in with the show that's specifically about marketing model kits. I'm surprised he hasn't at some point in his career, already.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:59
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Ideon was originally supposed to be just that. Tomino just managed to fool the executives who never bothered to actually watch the cartoon. He had to do everything one handed for the entire length of the production, drawing, typing, eating, the works - just in case an executive cottoned on and he had to silence him to finish it.
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Jun 28, 2014 03:02
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tsob posted:Ideon was originally supposed to be just that. Tomino just managed to fool the executives who never bothered to actually watch the cartoon. He had to do everything one handed for the entire length of the production, drawing, typing, eating, the works - just in case an executive cottoned on and he had to silence him to finish it. I was afraid of where you were going with that last sentence when it started but you brought it in professionally.
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Jun 28, 2014 03:08
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Yoshiyuki Tomino has put down several dozen human beings.
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Jun 28, 2014 03:53
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Has Tomino said anything about Build Fighters? I'd be interested in hearing his opinion of it, though it'd pretty obviously be negative. Would like to know if he has anything to say besides "It's about loving toys I hate it"
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Jun 28, 2014 06:52
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TaurusOxford posted:That'd be some MGS2-level mindfuckery. Besides, isn't the BF Universe considered Gundam Heaven from all the dead character cameos? The MG Turn X manual specifically singles out BF as the only universe where the Black History could have never happened. It's basically official now.
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Jun 28, 2014 06:54
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ninjewtsu posted:Has Tomino said anything about Build Fighters? I'd be interested in hearing his opinion of it, though it'd pretty obviously be negative. Would like to know if he has anything to say besides "It's about loving toys I hate it" I'd hope he has the sense to recognize an awesome series when he sees one.
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Jun 28, 2014 09:40
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Caros posted:I'd hope he has the sense to recognize an awesome series when he sees one. He politely offers to write the final episode. There are no survivors  .
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Jun 28, 2014 10:20
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Caros posted:I'd hope he has the sense to recognize an awesome series when he sees one. Build Fighters is fun but fun is not the same as good. It's a shameless toy commercial and its plotting has a lot of problems even by Gundam standards which we're all willing to overlook because it's silly lighthearted fun with good fights.
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Jun 28, 2014 10:28
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I'll never forget Reiji's ultimate move, "oh poo poo the episode's almost over, Aila you're going down in one punch!" EDIT: This isn't a knock on the show by the way, I just thought that was hilarious. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 10:54
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BlitzBlast posted:I'll never forget Reiji's ultimate move, "oh poo poo the episode's almost over, Aila you're going down in one punch!" That one is an actually forgivable Build Knuckle because every other piece of equipment on the Build Strike got sliced off by funnels during Newtype Berserker System.
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Jun 28, 2014 11:05
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Kanos posted:That one is an actually forgivable Build Knuckle because every other piece of equipment on the Build Strike got sliced off by funnels during Newtype Berserker System. I think it's more annoying because it was "oh poo poo, I can't see. Guess I better just stand here and get punched then, not even gonna try to dodge." Really, Aila is at once one of the better characters and a giant goddamn disappointment. I think because it would have taken a few minor rewrites and some better budget to fix all the problems with her.
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Jun 28, 2014 11:51
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Still kind of bummed whenever I rewatch 26 that the Miss Sazabi didn't get to do crap. Speaking of the Build Knuckle, am I the only person who's utterly confused why it's become one of BF's flaws? It's the SBS' signature finisher, of course it ends every fight with it. That's how signature finishers work. And that's ignoring how the animators went through the trouble of fully reanimating it every time instead of G Gundam's stock footage spam. Actually, I kind of feel like anyone who complains about the Build Knuckle would just die of sheer rage three episodes into G Gundam.
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Jun 28, 2014 11:59
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TARDISman posted:Pans out, reveals to all have been part of the Arian Gunpla Battle League. I could only accept this if everything was Mock-derived.
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Jun 28, 2014 12:04
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BlitzBlast posted:Still kind of bummed whenever I rewatch 26 that the Miss Sazabi didn't get to do crap. My big problem with the Build Knuckle wasn't that they ended fights with it. (It was generally quite good when they did that.) It was when the Build Knuckle overcame challenges that otherwise would have required the protagonist's to change how they approached things. Like they spend 2-3 episodes building up Nils' Particle-based martial arts and literally the first time he uses it on Sei and Reiji they make his arm explode right back just by Build Knuckling. That's boring. The fight isn't a bad idea (especially Sei winning by being better at building in an emergency) but it involves them effectively just noselling Nils gimmick right off the bat without any special action taken on their part. Likewise, Aila getting beaten not by a clever use of the Build Knuckle to blind her sight, but because Reiji uses Build Knuckle and she just kind of stands there and takes it? Really boring. The core idea is there but it is badly presented. Maoh using both the Satellite System and the Solar Ray system to create a super beam saber? Holy poo poo, that's cool! And then Reiji just Build Knuckles it and it wins without any special action on his part. It's fine in the Felini fight and the Exia fight because there it isn't being used to get around the other fighter's gimmick in a boring way. The use of the Build Knuckle to beat opponents is less of a problem than the fact that the Build Knuckle isn't being used in a creative and active way to do so. At its best, Build Fighters was really good about gimmicks not working more than a handful of times once someone figures them out. The Build Strike's Absorb system was super-powerful but the other talented fights quickly sussed out its weakness and began targeting it. Likewise, the Renato Brothers had a strong gimmick but Meijin studied them and figured out a countermeasure for it. Even the invisible funnels were dangerous only until someone figured them out. The RG System and Build Knuckle however never really got that treatment. Fighters talked about how crazy-powerful it was but never worked to counteract it. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 12:04
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ImpAtom posted:My big problem with the Build Knuckle wasn't that they ended fights with it. (It was generally quite good when they did that.) It was when the Build Knuckle overcame challenges that otherwise would have required the protagonist's to change how they approached things. it is a show made to sell models to children. dont think this much and just watch teh robots punch
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Jun 28, 2014 13:49
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Build Knuckle works almost every time for the same reason every super robot's final attack works almost every time.
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Jun 28, 2014 16:40
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ImpAtom posted:Likewise, Aila getting beaten not by a clever use of the Build Knuckle to blind her sight, but because Reiji uses Build Knuckle and she just kind of stands there and takes it? Really boring. The core idea is there but it is badly presented. All of her training and battle experience up to that point had been centered around her ability to see plavsky particles in motion and learning to dodge attacks based on that. When the particle output from the Build Knuckle blinded her, she froze up because she had no idea on how to react in that situation. Basically, she choked at a key moment and it cost her the fight. Happens all the time in sports in real life, so I'm not sure why it's considered a cop-out in this case. I'll give you Nils and Maoh, though.
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Jun 28, 2014 17:00
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Burning finger has a way better build up. That Music starts playing, the Burning/Shining go into its gently caress poo poo up mode, Domon starts yelling about love and anger, and then he crushes the gundams loving skull. It's metal as gently caress. Meanwhile the build strike makes its hand glow and then punches the enemy, boring as gently caress.
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Jun 28, 2014 17:01
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Gaius Marius posted:Burning finger has a way better build up. That Music starts playing, the Burning/Shining go into its gently caress poo poo up mode, Domon starts yelling about love and anger, and then he crushes the gundams loving skull. It's metal as gently caress. Meanwhile the build strike makes its hand glow and then punches the enemy, boring as gently caress. What also makes it boring is the SBS has a full set of other weapons. It really wouldn't be as bad if the Build Knuckle was it's one gimmick like the God/Shining Gundam, but instead it just comes off as overdone when all its other guns and beam sabers are just reduced to momentary tools to be destroyed rather than effective weapons in their own right. Finishing a fight with the backpack cannons or charge gun (more than once) for variety would've been more interesting. Hell, you still could use the Build Knuckle as something like a feint or a crippling blow to open them up to the SBS's other weapons and make it more interesting.
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Jun 28, 2014 17:32
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Dick Spacious CPA posted:it is a show made to sell models to children. dont think this much and just watch teh robots punch It isn't very fun to watch the robots punch when that happens, which is a problem.
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Jun 28, 2014 20:21
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Both Mao and Aila's fights sort of just fell into production issues. Mao's was clearly the budget episode (and even then they sort of did a thing about Sei and Mao's respective capabilities as a builder when you see that both suits are cracking under the strain but the SBS holds together longer), and as I joked above Aila's just ran out of time. I imagine the animators having this big scene planned out for how the fight would end when they get told that they have one minute to finish it.Gaius Marius posted:Meanwhile the build strike makes its hand glow and then punches the enemy, boring as gently caress. Every single time they bust out the Build Knuckle there's always a big dramatic scene for it, when it lands there's a poo poo ton of yelling, and then the other guy always gets killed a different way (straight up shining finger on the Maoh, Astray gets uppercutted, Papillion gets punched in half, Exia gets the evil knocked off it, crystal gets an incredibly well animated punch, etc). You'd have to be straight up not watching the show to think this. Neddy Seagoon posted:It really wouldn't be as bad if the Build Knuckle was it's one gimmick like the God/Shining Gundam, but instead it just comes off as overdone when all its other guns and beam sabers are just reduced to momentary tools to be destroyed rather than effective weapons in their own right. Seriously, it's the signature finisher. That means it ends every major battle with it because that is how these things work. And hell, it ended almost all of the minor battles with its beams and absorb system, are we just ignoring those? EDIT: The first half of Nils' fight was definitely pretty lame though. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 22:41
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BlitzBlast posted:And hell, it ended almost all of the minor battles with its beams and absorb system, are we just ignoring those? Because of what I said above. The show responded to the beams and absorb system. Talented enemies quickly figured out its weaknesses and compensated for them. The same thing happened to most of the big gimmicks. They were trump cards that lost their value once someone figured them out. The Build Knuckle/RG System combo never really has that happen. And I think that really devalues one of the interesting things about BF's fights. They were pretty reactive and (in the good fights), once you did something to win it probably wasn't going to work again. Enemies would study each other and come up for countermeasures which meant that (in theory) the builders were very important because they kept coming up with new things to counteract the new things their enemies came up with, mixed with talented pilots being able to compensate on the fly. Build Knuckle and RG Mode was boring because Sei figured it out and then just stopped innovating and coming up with new stuff. In comparison literally every other fighter was doing new stuff constantly. Even joke characters like Sazaki or the guy who hated Felini were pulling out new things constantly. Sei built the Star Build Strike and then was basically done. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 22:50
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Well the issue is that there isn't much you can do about the RG system or the Build Knuckle. The former is just an overall buff to all capabilities, and there's no main control part you can destroy to nullify it. I guess it's sorta temporary, but Reiji tends to pop it at the climax of the fights so that's not an issue for him. Pretty much the only thing you can do about it is match it, and that's exactly what Meijin does when he switches to the Exia and its Trans-Am. Meanwhile the Build Knuckle is, well, a punch. Maybe in some crazy sidestory there's a special anti-punch system someone could have installed but as is the most you can do is try to react. And actually, almost all of the people who get hit do. Fellini goes for a counter, and successfully gets a draw. Mao is in shock that his Maoh Saber failed so he just lets the SBS do its thing. Nils tried to bring a shield up, but it wasn't sturdy enough. Aila had that whole stupid scene about "oh no there's too many particles" and got hit like a deer in the headlights. Evil Meijin actually dodged, but then he got ordered to go for a big climax and charged right in. And the crystal, uh, okay I guess the crystal didn't do anything. quote:Sei built the Star Build Strike and then was basically done. I feel like this sort of ties into both Sei's own faults as a character (of which there are many) and the reality of consumers not wanting to see dozens of versions of the HGBF Build Strike. EDIT: V My dream SRW implementation of BF is that the SBS has a dynamic finish on every single one of its attacks, and they are all versions of the Build Knuckle. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 23:07
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I liked the Build Knuckle because it looked like the animators were outright told "Ok, make an attack that looks like it should be in Super Robot Wars." and they loving ran with it.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:15
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BlitzBlast posted:Well the issue is that there isn't much you can do about the RG system or the Build Knuckle. The former is just an overall buff to all capabilities, and there's no main control part you can destroy to nullify it. I guess it's sorta temporary, but Reiji tends to pop it at the climax of the fights so that's not an issue for him. Pretty much the only thing you can do about it is match it, and that's exactly what Meijin does when he switches to the Exia and its Trans-Am. Meanwhile the Build Knuckle is, well, a punch. Maybe in some crazy sidestory there's a special anti-punch system someone could have installed but as is the most you can do is try to react. And actually, all of the people who get hit do. The thing is that we're talking about Gundam here, and a theoretical Gundam where they have access to everything in every canon and non-canonical things too. The idea that nobody, no matter how talented, can do anything but match the RG System is bad writing. Sheer power isn't the be-all end-all of capabilities for anything else in the series. When faced with overwhelming power, fights find a way to go around it or take advantage of its weaknesses or else the Build Strike nullifies their strengths without special effort. (Again, Nils.) It basically overpowers everything everywhere for no specific and clear reason.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:23
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See I agree with that, but the issue is that I don't think there's anything you can do that wouldn't be utter bullshit on the level of Unicorn 7's "now my weapons nullify psychowaves because reasons". The RG system is a self-contained buff that can be activated no matter how much of the main body is destroyed, and the Build Knuckle is a punch. The thing I like about RG is that it emphasizes Reiji and even Sei's own skills as a pilot and a builder respectively. Activating it doesn't instantly kill the other guy, it just tunes up the SBS to the point that it runs circles around everything else. Which naturally means that controlling it must be an utter bitch. Instead of just saying Reiji's good (though it does do that when other pilots are  ing over how he can even control Speed Discharge), the show shows it by having him pull off all sorts of crazy poo poo. Meanwhile for Sei, it's pretty much the culmination of his own efforts. It's a really good idea that nobody else can think of a hard counter to, and I think we're supposed to assume he's constantly improving it over the course of the show seeing how the SBS' limbs stop blowing up. Though that's all still vague because Sei wasn't handled very well.I still think it's funny that at the beginning Sei didn't expect Reiji to be capable of handling the Full Package. Then by the point he makes the SBS he just assumes Reiji can do anything so he throws out all restraint.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:38
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BlitzBlast posted:See I agree with that, but the issue is that I don't think there's anything you can do that wouldn't be utter bullshit on the level of Unicorn 7's "now my weapons nullify psychowaves because reasons". The RG system is a self-contained buff that can be activated no matter how much of the main body is destroyed, and the Build Knuckle is a punch. I don't really agree with this. There are a lot of things you could do. Mirage Colloid or Planet Defensors for example. You don't need tremendous bullshit to overcome pure overwhelming power. I mean this is a show where one of the characters fought by using tiny plastic army men to plants bombs on his opponent and his opponent defeated it by coating his joints with grease. Creativity is the most powerful force in the series besides "a really good punch" I guess. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 23:41
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Assuming you mean the Gold Frame's version (seriously there are like six different uses for Mirage colloids, what the hell CE) that would have been cool, but you lost me on how Planet Defensors would help. Like, we're talking about the barrier things in Wing right? What would those do, take a hit and then get destroyed/run out of power? Anyway I guess we can just agree to disagree on this point. Most of the time the RG system was used in conjunction with the Build Knuckle as a "okay, battle's over, time for the cool finish" so it all falls into the "this is a shonen tournament sports show" thing to me.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:56
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BlitzBlast posted:Assuming you mean the Gold Frame's version (seriously there are like six different uses for Mirage colloids, what the hell CE) that would have been cool, but you lost me on how Planet Defensors would help. Like, we're talking about the barrier things in Wing right? What would those do, take a hit and then get destroyed/run out of power? Planet Defensors are hilariously powerful. They literally can tank the Wing Zero's buster rifle.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:22
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ImpAtom posted:Planet Defensors are hilariously powerful. They literally can tank the Wing Zero's buster rifle. They can tank one shot, and only just barely.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:49
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TaurusOxford posted:They can tank one shot, and only just barely. I'm just saying, that's a hell of a thing to tank by default. Modify the poo poo out of that. Stick a GN Drive on each one.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:51
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ImpAtom posted:I'm just saying, that's a hell of a thing to tank by default. Modify the poo poo out of that. Stick a GN Drive on each one.
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Jun 29, 2014 04:41
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AradoBalanga posted:Okay, now you're just getting silly. No reason you couldn't. 
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Jun 29, 2014 04:42
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If someone wanted to win every fight they would just use Turn A or Turn X and say they were the full powered versions. I imagine there is some sort of weird point buy system in place where you program your suits powers and can only have a limited amount we just never see it.
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Jun 29, 2014 04:47
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Ethiser posted:If someone wanted to win every fight they would just use Turn A or Turn X and say they were the full powered versions. I imagine there is some sort of weird point buy system in place where you program your suits powers and can only have a limited amount we just never see it. Except Gundam universe power means jackshit in Build Fighters universe. This is the same universe where Devil Gundam can lose to a Jegan - it's all based on pilot skill and the build quality of the Gunpla.
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Jun 29, 2014 04:54
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Just put a mini Char figure in the cockpit and watch the particles bend over backwards to show off how totally cool he is.
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