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KernelSlanders posted:I mean no disrespect here, but I really view this attitude at part of the problem. I also don't mean to imply that cops don't have to deal with all manner of hosed up poo poo that the rest of us don't. I know they do, but the idea that it's a particularly dangerous job because everyone is trying to kill you, is simply false. Firstly, because it's statistically not a very dangerous job -- not even in the top ten. Logging, commercial fishing, construction, aircraft operation are all statistically more dangerous occupations (source). Where do police rank in number of homicides compared to other jobs? I'm pretty sure I've never heard anyone say "all loggers should die" and "if I saw someone killing a commercial fisherman I'd look the other way".
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Jul 1, 2014 17:16
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SrgMagnum posted:That's not even factoring in the physical violence. I've had people pull guns on me over a fix-it ticket or a small bag of weed which wouldn't even be worth writing a ticket over. I'm not justifying pulling a gun on a cop, just saying there's a reason stuff that's no big deal to cops isn't necessarily viewed the same way by civilians. I'm pretty sure the cop gave me that charge because he was frustrated he wasted his time searching my car in the middle of the night, not because he wanted to protect society from a dangerous pothead, and it significantly changed the next 5-10 years of my life.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:03
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That doesn't sound like a problem with police, more like a problem with how the legal system deals with marijuana charges.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:14
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SrgMagnum posted:I can certainly understand your point of view there and I have seen and heard those stats many times. I'm not comparing my career to anybody else's or trying to make a claim that it's more dangerous than others. I'm just giving you my perspective and my experience. Yes, there's no question that police face unique occupational hazards, and I'm not trying to dismiss them. I'm only questioning whether "everyone's out to get me" is a rational fear, or whether at the end of the day such an attitude causes more harm than it prevents. I would also reiterate that police are statistically more likely to be killed by a car than by a gun -- a fact that if more widely known could probably save officer lives. I agree communication is important, and I agree that conversations like this one are helpful, but more is needed. I think part of the problem is the stratification of the country that has happened over the last several decades. When I was a kid there were other kids at school, in Boy Scouts, on soccer teams who's fathers were police. That is all but guaranteed not to be the case for my kids. Police not living in the communities they police is always going to be a barrier. I don't have any good solutions for that. I will grant that we do have a culture of one-upsmanship, but that's where training comes in. There are plenty of conflict management techniques. I don't think it's ridiculous to expect the police to be the mature ones in a conflict.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:14
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deratomicdog posted:That doesn't sound like a problem with police, more like a problem with how the legal system deals with marijuana charges. I agree, I'm just saying in my case that paraphernalia charge was entirely at the discretion of the cop (I don't know anyone else who's gotten a paraphernalia charge for a baggy without also getting busted with scales and distribution quantities), and it hosed me over pretty hard.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:18
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deratomicdog posted:That doesn't sound like a problem with police, more like a problem with how the legal system deals with marijuana charges. Well, the police as an institution are fighting pretty hard to prevent any changes to the way the legal system deals with marijuana charges.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:23
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I think a major step in reforming the police could be taken very, very simply - no more blackout tactical vests and ballcaps with alphabet soup on them. Go back to pressed powder-blue shirts and five-pointed caps. Image and cultural cache are real things, and if LEOs look like the friendly helpers in the posters kids see in elementary school instead of "poo poo's goin' down" military responders, it might make a significant difference even without any other changes.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:24
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wixard posted:I agree, I'm just saying in my case that paraphernalia charge was entirely at the discretion of the cop (I don't know anyone else who's gotten a paraphernalia charge for a baggy without also getting busted with scales and distribution quantities), and it hosed me over pretty hard. Yet, you hold the cop responsible when in reality it all could have been avoided in the first place: wixard posted:I was dumb and had a tiny bag of weed in my pocket
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Jul 1, 2014 18:25
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Untagged posted:Yet, you hold the cop responsible when in reality it all could have been avoided in the first place: Right, and don't wear clothes like that if you don't want to be raped. It's just common sense!
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Jul 1, 2014 18:29
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wixard posted:I agree, I'm just saying in my case that paraphernalia charge was entirely at the discretion of the cop (I don't know anyone else who's gotten a paraphernalia charge for a baggy without also getting busted with scales and distribution quantities), and it hosed me over pretty hard. A plastic bag can be considered dangerous drug paraphernalia? What was it, some sort of super air tight anti-drug dog storage bag that only drug dealers use? Christ.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:30
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Everblight posted:Right, and don't wear clothes like that if you don't want to be raped. It's just common sense! Except, you know, the fact that you are comparing someone who knowingly commits a criminal misdemeanor to that of a sexual assault victim. Whatever makes you feel better.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:40
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Everblight posted:I think a major step in reforming the police could be taken very, very simply - no more blackout tactical vests and ballcaps with alphabet soup on them. Everblight posted:Right, and don't wear clothes like that if you don't want to be raped. It's just common sense!
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Jul 1, 2014 18:42
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Untagged posted:Yet, you hold the cop responsible when in reality it all could have been avoided in the first place: If I didn't have my weed in a ziploc, just loose in my pocket, do you think he should have taken my pants as paraphernalia? Mercury_Storm posted:A plastic bag can be considered dangerous drug paraphernalia? What was it, some sort of super air tight anti-drug dog storage bag that only drug dealers use? Christ. It's considered paraphernalia so they can nail dealers to the wall. ChristsDickWorship fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 19:00
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I've been told to never charge possession of marijuana without also charging possession of paraphernalia.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:44
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Everblight posted:Right, and don't wear clothes like that if you don't want to be raped. It's just common sense! I hope you're trolling, but you win the false-equivalences award if not. If you don't want to be perceived as threatening, don't act threatening. That includes not dressing like you're going to war when you step out into the community.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:47
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While based on stats it is true that it is not the most dangerous job out there, as has been stated the "hate is real". A bad example, but one none the less, is goons. We (edit: goons) are feared, hated, etc on the internet because of ~stuff~ and ~things~ so goons stick together even more then more casual communities might, regardless of professions, walks-of-life, etc, etc. Cops are the same way. People are hostile to us, whether we are just walking down the street, trying to eat food, etc. How many jobs do you know of where you can't eat at restaurants because the cooks had been to jail and don't like you. There is a reason why only certain restaurants have all the cops, its usually one of the few who aren't hostile to us......or waffle house b/c we can see the food being made and they like feeling safe late at night b/c stuff happens. Whether you feel it is true or not, policing depending on where you work can actually be comparable to a mini-war zone. If you work in a big city there are areas that the police are not allowed to go because it is too dangerous for even us. I believe that guy about being spit on and all that because it happens all the time. People are incredibly hostile to cops and its never talked about or discussed. Samurai Sanders posted:I'm not really following you here. Why are police officers who are completely outside of work, just sitting in their house or walking down the street or whatever, compelled to help? Why can't it be handled by cops who are on duty? I mean, if the distribution of currently working cops is such that no currently working cop can be there in time, isn't that a problem with the distribution of cops? Because when things are going normal a few cops can get order. The last thing people would want is hundreds of cops just sitting around all the time "just in case" so we are off duty. That is something that cop unions do try and help with as far as i know, but i didn't have one, but you take a legal oath to be a cop. You are a first responder which means by law you know what to do during an emergency. That means the law expects you to help in an emergency because you have the training and ability to be calm and actually help. Most people literally shut down with something spontaneous happens, let alone an emergency so those with training in society to deal with it are expected to. That does not just include police, though. Someone mentioned the cop saves the day when off stories. We help b/c that is who we are and what we do. The legal expection that we do is not to compel us but to cover us. The legal back up is that we are covered for getting involved should something go wrong. If that wasn't there and we got shot off duty while helping, or got injured pulling someone out of car, etc....we wld not get any payment for our familes, etc. Because without those laws saying we are "never off duty" we would not get any kind of protections for getting involved. Overall, though, i never helped someone off duty "because well the law says i have too". I just liked to, and so do the vast majority of police and other public safety. We have the training to do so, and we like to. If there is an armed robbery and we are with our family, even if we have our gun, it is not smart to help because we have to protect our family. In that case we would be the best witness we could be instead of risk our lives and families lives (we also don't just walk around with body armor on when we are off). justsharkbait fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 20:24
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deratomicdog posted:I've been told to never charge possession of marijuana without also charging possession of paraphernalia. Out of curiosity, does that make you more likely to write possession of paraphernalia tickets, or less likely to write possession of marijuana tickets? I would assume they say that because the DA wants to see a more serious crime than weed possession in their court. The SrgMagnum quote I replied to implied that a bag of weed wasn't a big deal, but in a lot of states (like NC) paraphernalia can land you in prison so that kind of makes it a big deal.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:25
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wixard posted:Out of curiosity, does that make you more likely to write possession of paraphernalia tickets, or less likely to write possession of marijuana tickets? I only wrote weed tickets if they lied to me about having it. Otherwise, if they were honest, i threw it out and them go. EDIT: In my area it was the opposite. Our judges did not prosecute paraphernalia so we did not write those just to have them thrown out b/c the head judge did not like the law. That is another level of policing. Judges are 100% in charge of their local legal system. So if a judge thinks too many speeding tickets are being written in an area, or he does not think the speed limit is fair, they will just throw out all those tickets and tell us to not bother writing them. They can't stop us from writing the ticket, but what is the point if all them get thrown out. justsharkbait fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 20:29
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justsharkbait posted:I only wrote weed tickets if they lied to me about having it. Otherwise, if they were honest, i threw it out and them go. So basically you took the law into your own hands and did what you please. Does it surprise you that most people hate cops?
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Jul 1, 2014 20:34
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litany of gulps posted:So basically you took the law into your own hands and did what you please. Ah, so you prefer the cops who enforce the letter of the law without regard for how it fucks people over even in the case of stupid laws?
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Jul 1, 2014 20:37
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Kalman posted:Ah, so you prefer the cops who enforce the letter of the law without regard for how it fucks people over even in the case of stupid laws? Honestly, I think so. Part of the fear and hatred of police is the unpredictability. Are they going to make up BS charges to gently caress me over because they don't like how I look? Well, anecdotal evidence from everyone everywhere says yes. Can I get off if I bribe them or flirt with them or am white enough? Well, anecdotal evidence from everywhere again says yes. Can they randomly decide to beat me down for any reason at all with no consequences? Well, looks like again we have a yes. If the cops actually just followed the laws and were consistent, you might see less hate and fear of them. I don't really trust the personal judgment of most police to think that their interpretation of the law is what they should enforce. Leave that to the courts, because at least judges have some credibility.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:40
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litany of gulps posted:So basically you took the law into your own hands and did what you please. Cops have discretion in enforcing the law, particular traffic tickets and misdemeanors. So there is no "taking it in my own hands" it is there when you become a cop.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:41
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Kalman posted:Ah, so you prefer the cops who enforce the letter of the law without regard for how it fucks people over even in the case of stupid laws? Or maybe cops who don't base their decisions on whether or not someone lied about possession to an individual who has the authority to charge them with possession. The fourth and fifth amendments are both things that exist after all.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:42
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justsharkbait posted:We are feared, hated, etc on the internet because of ~stuff~ and ~things~   Quit being obtuse. You know drat well why you people are hated.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:43
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litany of gulps posted:Honestly, I think so. Part of the fear and hatred of police is the unpredictability. We don't make up charges. We simple decide to charge or not. We have a job to do, and we can choose how to do it. We don't accept bribes, but if you give me a good excuse i have not heard before or make me laugh you might get off the ticket. no. we cannot beat you down for no reason. i don't know where your evidence is of that but i never saw it. and no, you would not see less hate because IF we followed the letter of the law if would be hell. justsharkbait fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 20:44
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BarkingSquirrel posted:Pictured: ~stuff~ and ~things~ I was talking about goons, not cops.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:44
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justsharkbait posted:I only wrote weed tickets if they lied to me about having it. Otherwise, if they were honest, i threw it out and them go.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:47
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justsharkbait posted:We don't make up chargers. We simple decide to charge or not. We have a job to do, and we can choose who to do it. Ah yes, front line cops, the ones who should be deciding who to enforce the laws against rather than simply enforcing the laws. You are the worst.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:48
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^^^ Because people should always incriminate themselves on the off chance that the police officer has a hard-on for honesty.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:49
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I.G. posted:Why do you think this is a good idea? Because it is more work then the ticket is worth for the ticket version of possession (less then 1oz). 1) evidence bag, 2) ticket, 3) testing lab paperwork (to make sure its the drug in question) 4)whole car smells like weed. 5)1-2 page police report to cover what needs to be covered for the crime
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Jul 1, 2014 20:49
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litany of gulps posted:If the cops actually just followed the laws and were consistent, you might see less hate and fear of them. The law is routinely insane and discretion in charging is pretty much the only thing that keeps the courts even semi-functional.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:50
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justsharkbait posted:Because it is more work then the ticket is worth for the ticket version of possession (less then 1oz). No, I mean why should lying about possession have any bearing on whether they're charged with a crime?
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Jul 1, 2014 20:51
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Rent-A-Cop posted:If cops actually maxed out every misdemeanor they found the legal system would loving implode. We'd all get charged with about half a dozen crimes a day, and you'd be lucky if your grandchildren were alive for your court date. Yes, putting the power of deciding which laws to enforce in the hands of the grunt-level workers of the judicial branch is the only way to make the legal system functional. This is the dumbest poo poo I've ever seen. If the legal system wouldn't work without putting the burden of making it work on the judgment of the lowest tier workers in the system, then maybe the system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Perhaps if the police had simply enforced the laws consistently and fairly from ages past, the legal system wouldn't be all hosed up.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:52
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BarkingSquirrel posted:Pictured: ~stuff~ and ~things~ Pictured here is every cop ever.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:54
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litany of gulps posted:If the legal system wouldn't work without putting the burden of making it work on the judgment of the lowest tier workers in the system, then maybe the system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:55
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litany of gulps posted:I don't really trust the personal judgment of most police to think that their interpretation of the law is what they should enforce. Leave that to the courts, because at least judges have some credibility.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:55
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litany of gulps posted:Ah yes, front line cops, the ones who should be deciding who to enforce the laws against rather than simply enforcing the laws. It was supposed to say how or when to enforce. Also, the law is not as simple as "just enforcing it" because circumstances are important too. For example, lady going to hospital is speeding. I pull her over. Claims her husband was being rushed there because of accident. I knew there was a serious accident that had happened and believed her story. That is a valid excuse to me to "break the law". It is traffic law, and not criminal code. She is not a criminal. She violated a rule, like talking in class. Of course, i could have given her a ticket but then she would have gotten a ticket on the same day her husband died in a car accident. That would be great for public perception wouldn't it? our role as police officers is to 1)enforce the law, but also 2) decide when it needs to be enforced. That is why we have investigations, procedure, etc. We add a human element to the black and white of the law. Does that mean that many officers have used it badly? Absolutely because when people are given power bad things can happen. If people are afraid of the feared "police state" then you don't want to take away the discretion because you will have a police state. justsharkbait fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 20:56
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justsharkbait posted:If people are afraid of the feared "police state" then you don't want to take away the discretion because you will have a police state. Is the police state when you have too many laws or is it when the police control how the laws are enforced and who they're enforced against?
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Jul 1, 2014 21:04
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So far a goon has complained that a cop did not use discretion, and a goon has complained that a cop would use any discretion.
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Jul 1, 2014 21:04
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justsharkbait posted:If people are afraid of the feared "police state" then you don't want to take away the discretion because you will have a police state. That's not what this term means. Stripping away the rule of law and having police arbitrarily decide who does and doesn't go to prison is what makes a police state. Guess what you're advocating for.
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Jul 1, 2014 21:04
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