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I'd love to know what the purpose of "civilian models" is. It's your car, but you can also hang out?
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Jul 1, 2014 05:11
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Mornacale posted:I'd love to know what the purpose of "civilian models" is. It's your car, but you can also hang out? Although TBH given sufficient controls it seems to neatly sidestep all the effort Google is putting into self-driving cars and just go "BAM, done. Enjoy the commute!".
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Jul 1, 2014 05:20
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Unoriginal Name posted:How about the Autobots pretending to abandon earth and letting Decepticons murder over a thousand people and lay waste to Chicago to prove a point? This is noble and heroic in your view? They pretended to abandon Earth to ensure that the Decepticons had no idea about their continued existence on Earth. Noble, check. Heroic, check. Prime vowing to kill the man who ordered the butchering of the Good Guys, lying (using Deception, I wonder which side's name is most like that word?) to harm the Good Guys? Noble, check. Heroic, check. Hell, that one had the audience applauding at my showing, because it was friggin awesome and if it wasn't a three-hour movie I'd prolly go see it again just for that scene. Audiences applaud at heroes doing the right thing, see.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:38
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MisterBibs posted:There's no actions in four Transformers movies to even begin to doubt the mentality/actions of the Autobots and of Optimus Prime. The way Prime turned on Megatron at the end of Dark of the Moon was as far from heroic as you can get. Honestly, it was a moment that would have been fitting for Starscream or a villain's second in command, not Optimus.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:13
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No, Optimus! Blam.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:21
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It's weird how Optimus actually executes a helpless prisoner which is the exact same action that Soundwave was going to do to Bumblebee earlier in the film but I'm pretty sure that Optimus is still a good guy because he says he is.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:24
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Unoriginal Name posted:How about the Autobots pretending to abandon earth and letting Decepticons murder over a thousand people and lay waste to Chicago to prove a point? This is noble and heroic in your view? I think you're mis-remembering the intent of the bit you have in the spoiler block. The only time in dialogue Prime mentions that he made that vow, he immediately follows it up with something to the effect of "but I'm going to have to break it for the one responsible for killing so many of my friends." This is not a morally acceptable stance to take in the real world, but it is in action cinema. Indeed, in action cinema it's the heroic thing to do. Maybe I'm just falling into Poe's Law gimmick traps, but it certainly seems as though people over the last several posts do legitimately accept the reading that "the Autobots and Optimus Prime are evil whereas the Decepticons and Megatron are not," using their treatment and behavior toward their fellow Transformers as the foundational basis for their arguments. But the trouble with essays such as "the Galactic Empire in Star Wars is actually good" is that they have to somehow argue in favor of their on-screen atrocities: "well of COURSE they had to kill those farmers and cover it up/blow up that planet with no military defenses because...." In the case of the Decepticons, people are pointing out the validity of what they're doing by viewing their deeds relative to the preservation of the Transformers: "Megatron just wants to feed the babies!" etc. Here's the thing: when it comes to assessing "good" vs "evil" in this fictional space, the well-being of humanity takes priority over the well-being of space aliens. (This prioritization of people over not-people likely extends to many real-world morality judgments as well.) Most of the viewing audience intuitively understands to brand the Decepticons as unequivocally evil because of the on-actions they take in the films directly against humanity: actively provoking conflicts with and killing members of our armed forces (the first thing we ever see the Decepticons do), attempting to destroy our sun for fuel (which would not only put an end to all organic life on the planet but also destroy the Solar System in the process, hence the aforementioned line "if the Decepticons had their way, they'd destroy the whole universe!"), slaughtering thousands in a major American city as the first stage of their attempt to enslave planet Earth and use us for labor/resources, and in the latest film attempting to kill over 7 million people by intentionally detonating a terraforming device in a heavily populated area, as doing so maximizes their yield output. These are straight-up acts of pure evil to most people, since the endgame is "much of humanity dies/is enslaved with no power to resist or effectively fight back." You can't actually leave the Decepticons alive, as to do so is to invite further intentional taking of human life on a grand scale on their part. We know this based on what they've been trying to do to humanity for four movies now. By similar logic, the Autobots and Optimus Prime are viewed by most as unmistakably heroic because they instrumentally prevent these apocalyptic (for us) scenarios from coming to pass. The means by which this is achieved are of relatively little concern to us since what posters are referring to as the "evil actions" Optimus commits aren't directly taken against humanity. The reason that his putting blades/firearm rounds through other robots' heads is heroic is because it's done in the process of preventing mass human genocide. (Megatron/The Fallen/Sentinel Prime cannot exactly be incarcerated.) Pretending to leave Earth so to empirically demonstrate "contrary to what they claim, the Decepticons are not going to up and leave just because we're not around" is an act of "good" because it was the most expedient way to show the world's governments who's actually telling the truth with the fewest human casualties. In fact, it'd be perfectly heroic to most viewers were Optimus Prime to commit genocide upon his own race if the end result was that it prevent such a fate befalling us. Depending on your interpretation of what the space bridge does, some argue this precise scenario is what occurred for the conclusion of Transformers 3! Even for the finale of this latest film where yes, Optimus does indeed directly and intentionally kill a human being himself rather than have the human lead do so, most viewers accept this as a valid action. An ally is in imminent danger of losing their life; then and ONLY then does Prime fire. This is acceptable action hero morality, largely informed by the fact that it would be acceptable behavior for say, a soldier or police officer. Where action movies differ is that it would also have been fine had Optimus done so EARLIER on the grounds that this guy was directly responsible for the deaths of established heroes, the resurrection of the Decepticons, and most of all innocent civilians. (The bad guy's reasons for doing so are incidentally in line with the logic many posters in this thread have adopted, and so some may sympathetically view him "doing the wrong things for the right reasons."). But the addition of the "innocent people are in immediate and tangible danger of losing their lives if lethal force isn't used right now" scenario removes most ambiguity. Action movie logic transcends age and political boundaries: I went to the early morning showing that was like one-third elementary school kids, and both they and grownups alike audibly approved of that moment. Michael Bay seems to be implying that this time he's not kidding when he says "I'm not doing any more Transformers movies." If that's actually true, then given the manner in which this film ends with Prime's departure from Earth and an undamaged Galvatron's remaining on Earth minus an army, I imagine whoever handles the next installment (in a perfect world it'd be Neveldine/Taylor but we can't have nice things) would have to set its events relatively shortly after the conclusion of this one since the latter part of that scenario can't last for that much time. Daryl Surat fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 06:32
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I don't think there's anyone who is saying that the Autobots are evil and the Decepticons are not. In my mind, the Decepticons are fighting for the preservation of their species in the wake of a huge war. They're still evil, sure, when it comes to humanity. However, every event in the film is instigated by Optimus kicking the AllSpark off Cybertron because he lost the war, a war that was so overwhelmingly lost that there was no possible way for him to defeat the Decepticons. They're both evil, but Megatron is trying to preserve his species. Optimus seems to be doing his best to finish them off. Neither is 'good' but I certainly find Megatron more sympathetic. It's a good sense of grey. With a different director, it could even be tragic - Megatron just wants to preserve his people but has no qualms with wiping out humanity to do it; Optimus sacrifices his world, culture and people by defending a different species. Maybe. I'd also argue that discussing good versus evil in fictional texts doesn't mean that 'good' is necessarily on the side of preserving humanity. I think you can both believe that Prime is a cool 'action hero' who is operating on film logic but, if you step back from that, he really becomes a bit of a monster and terrorist. And I'm sure there'd be a way to incarcerate Megatron or Sentinel. I mean, I'd assume that Cybertron had jails and such. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 06:50
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The MSJ posted:Age of Extinction is like Prometheus, in that it begins with an act of destruction and creation in prehistory and ends with a character flying off into space to find his creators.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:57
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MisterBibs posted:They pretended to abandon Earth to ensure that the Decepticons had no idea about their continued existence on Earth. Noble, check. Heroic, check. Hmm.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:10
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Age of Extinction is a lot like Prometheus, in that you should probably watch a better movie instead
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Jul 1, 2014 07:11
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Aight shut the gently caress up I'm back and I saw the film. The thing to note immediately is that the green guy is Starscream. He's an Autobot Starscream, scheming against the leader and generally being a dick. Oh yeah, and Optimus? He's locked up in a lab and experimented upon, going on a mad rampage when he wakes up. Sound familiar? It's Megatron from the first film. Wahlberg is literally planning to exploit his parts for profit. Things have changed. The specific thing that's changed is that the roles from the first film are reversed. Optimus loathes humans now, incredibly hurt when told that he's not needed anymore. That's what gets to him: being needed. He's not mad about the nuke or whatever; Galvatron threatens Optimus with obsolescence. These drones are legitimately better at being Autobots than Optimus ever was. They can attack the gently caress out of Iran autonomously - it's exactly what Optimus claimed he was fighting for in previous films: the end of human warfare. But this was a lie. The Decepticons knew all along: "this is not your planet to rule." (This fear of obsolescence is what links him directly to Wahlberg - why Wahlberg's daughter issues are important.) Galvatron is also reset. Being put back in the torture chamber brought him right back to the 'dark place' from the first film. You might recall that Bumblebee was also tortured by government agents in the first film, going on a mad rampage when he woke up. Torture does that to everybody in these films - it doesn't matter your side. But in this case, Galvatron is literally based on Optimus. He's not a resurrected Megatron, he's a version of Optimus without a soul. But hold on! The spark is said to be where Cybertronians store their memories, so why can Galvatron persist without it? How does Prime survive being impaled through the chest? The spark is actually just a power source. Optimus is talking about his religious beliefs. This is where the conflict comes from. Optimus has regressed to a weird feudalism, with weird quasi-pagan beliefs in legendary dragons and poo poo. In this sense, he stands opposed to the liberal capitalism he used to support and to Galvatron's nihilistic atheism. The hints of revolutionary Christianity from TF3 have vanished entirely. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 07:22
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Mornacale posted:Hmm. Decepticons (remember, the Bad Guys) regularly lie to ensure their plans to subjugate and conquer are continued. Autobots (remember, the Good Guys) rarely lie to ensure that those who plan to subjugate and conquer are prevented.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:22
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MisterBibs posted:Autobots (remember, the Good Guys) rarely lie to ensure that those who plan to subjugate and conquer are prevented. 
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Jul 1, 2014 07:38
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Daryl Surat posted:in the latest film attempting to kill over 7 million people by intentionally detonating a terraforming device in a heavily populated area, as doing so maximizes their yield output. Galvatron has again been 'driven mad' with torture in this film - just like Brains, the Autobot imp who was also tortured. However, it's more accurate to say that he's not crazy; he just no longer gives a poo poo about anything. He's retaliating against the enslavement of his people. He says like ten lines of dialogue in the film, and half of them are about protecting his brothers. That's honestly a perfectly sane reaction. When he tried to unite the poor and impose universal democracy in the previous film, he was murdered.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:41
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Galvatron has again been 'driven mad' with torture in this film - just like Brains, the Autobot imp who was also tortured. However, it's more accurate to say that he's not crazy; he just no longer gives a poo poo about anything. Exactly.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:44
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Galvatron has again been 'driven mad' with torture in this film - just like Brains, the Autobot imp who was also tortured. However, it's more accurate to say that he's not crazy; he just no longer gives a poo poo about anything. He's retaliating against the enslavement of his people. He says like ten lines of dialogue in the film, and half of them are about protecting his brothers. I hope Galvatron and Optimus hash it out over this in the next one.  Galvatron's minimal dialogue/screen time in this one was somewhat disappointing but then again Lockdown more than made up for it. Assuming the "Creators" are in the next one it should be interesting to see what Galvatron's roll will be in all this.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:59
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One of the things I noticed with the film was how little the US Military seemed to be involved this go around, if at all. Didn't they lend a pretty big hand with some of the military side of things in the other three films? I don't know if this was due to all the Chinese production stuff or purely because of the negative light the film portrayed the CIA/Black Ops, of if one of those issues lead to the other. All the Autobots in this movie did come off as antagonistic which maybe is an example of how bad things got: The human-sympathetic Autobots would be the ones most easy to track down and kill, the ones that were more self-serving and rogue-like were canny enough to stay alive. Also, was Bumblebee always as sort of 'pissed off' as he was in this movie? It's like they put Sam's brain in his body.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:01
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Yes, a sign that there'd be nobody to build if not for the actions of the Autobots and their leader. It also represents the power of KG's group, as they've lied and twisted to present a false story where the heroes are treated as the villains. A sin justifying that person's death.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:06
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I was hoping Megatron would return as the unambiguous good guy of the film - but the reversal where he is now Psychopath Prime taken to an extreme, with only the name changed, is pretty interesting. Here's something notable: Lockdown's dogs aren't robots. You can see the flesh through the gaps in their armor - they are organic creatures. His subordinates are also clearly organic alien people in cloth suits, not robots.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:08
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MisterBibs posted:Yes, a sign that there'd be nobody to build if not for the actions of the Autobots and their leader. Isn't the 'public' story still that the Autobots are our allies and the only ones getting hunted down are the Decepticons? Even the White House is operating from the assumption that Prime can show up for a photo op. Even Jaeger is confused about the 'hunted by humans' situation, isn't he?
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Jul 1, 2014 08:14
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Daryl Surat posted:Maybe I'm just falling into Poe's Law gimmick traps, but it certainly seems as though people over the last several posts do legitimately accept the reading that "the Autobots and Optimus Prime are evil whereas the Decepticons and Megatron are not," using their treatment and behavior toward their fellow Transformers as the foundational basis for their arguments. But the trouble with essays such as "the Galactic Empire in Star Wars is actually good" is that they have to somehow argue in favor of their on-screen atrocities: "well of COURSE they had to kill those farmers and cover it up/blow up that planet with no military defenses because...." In the case of the Decepticons, people are pointing out the validity of what they're doing by viewing their deeds relative to the preservation of the Transformers: "Megatron just wants to feed the babies!" etc. As Milky Moor mentioned, nobody is calling the Deceptacons "good". The films are remarkably nihilistic: the protagonists are unlikeable idiots at best, the antagonists are evil, and the "heroes" are even worse. The only characters I can think of that are, maybe, morally good are invariably women, which means that they pend the whole movies being treated as sex objects and property. Or that dude in this one that calls the government and gets murdered. Meanwhile, who prospers? John Turturro, clearly an awful guy, gets rich by cynically exploiting his connections; the Steve Jobs stand-in is basically Josef Mengele and he too gets rich, gets the girl, etc; and Optimus Prime gains power by cannibalizing his dead allies and co-opting the government/military of the United States. (One might argue that they are allies, but that's belied by the fact that the one and only time Optimus ever accedes to U.S. leadership is actually a ruse to manipulate the public into doing what he wants. An alliance where one side calls all the shots is not really an alliance.) That said, a character who is willing to do whatever it takes to save his people is sympathetic. A character whose violent outburst is preceded by a century of imprisonment and torture is sympathetic. A character whose only motivation is to gleefully murder as many people as possible is just monstrous. The one and only time in any of the four films that a human character actually speaks to Megatron, he comes through and saves the day; when humans ask Optimus to do something, he pouts, refuses, and lies to us. One wonders what could have happened if the original humans to find Megatron had simply spoken to him and helped him, or if anyone at any point had attempted diplomacy instead of going straight to genocide. You also claim it's impossible to incarcerate the Decepticons despite the fact that Megatron started the first movie having been incarcerated for a century. Finally, you say that Prime murdering a human is okay due to "innocent people in immediate danger," but the only danger innocents were facing in that film was caused by Optimus himself. After all, the battle in question was not against Decepticons at all, but rather a bounty hunter sent to arrest Optimus Prime. If he wanted to protect innocents, all he had to do was turn himself in. The Seed was already safely out of the city. It, like all of Optimus's actions, was pure selfishness and desire for power/revenge. MisterBibs posted:Decepticons (remember, the Bad Guys) regularly lie to ensure their plans to subjugate and conquer are continued. Megatron practically never lies, Optimus does almost nothing but. JediTalentAgent posted:Also, was Bumblebee always as sort of 'pissed off' as he was in this movie? It's like they put Sam's brain in his body. Bumblebee was always a hot-tempered idiotic child. Hence why he got paired with Sam. It's no mistake that the new movie features Cade bonding with Optimus instead of Bumblebee: both are overbearing father figures who refuse to give up control of the people they see as their subordinates (Cade with his daughter, Optimus with every living being).
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Jul 1, 2014 08:31
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JediTalentAgent posted:Isn't the 'public' story still that the Autobots are our allies and the only ones getting hunted down are the Decepticons? Even the White House is operating from the assumption that Prime can show up for a photo op. I admit I wasn't clear here (Internet died, tried to paraphrase on my phone) , I meant that from a perspective of force, KG has created a hero-hostile environment as a result of his lies. I think he says that he has to get a hold of Jaeger to maintain the lie. Mornacale posted:That said, a character who is willing to do whatever it takes to save his people is sympathetic. A character whose violent outburst is preceded by a century of imprisonment and torture is sympathetic. A character whose only motivation is to gleefully murder as many people as possible is just monstrous. Megatron is never sympathetic or treated sympathetically, though. Only in a fanfic counterfactual that spawned the original thread is he sympathetic. MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 08:39
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JediTalentAgent posted:Also, was Bumblebee always as sort of 'pissed off' as he was in this movie? It's like they put Sam's brain in his body. In the first film, Bee gets pissy when Mikaela criticizes his appearance and changes into a new outfit. In this film, when Stinger is revealed, Bee gets pissy all over again. However, the not-so subtle gag: Bee immediately chooses a new outfit that looks exactly like Stinger's. Cade bonds with Optimus, but Tessa bonds with Bumblebee. There's even a bit in the final battle where Optimus complains that Bee disobeyed his orders, exactly as Tessa did. So: Tessa is preoccupied about her appearance, influenced by beauty ads? That's pretty much exactly what's going on with her relationship to Lucky Charms. He's older, and he can drive, and he's got a corporate sponsorship! Plus, he has government authorization to date her. He's the evil, successful version of Cade - the one who'll make him obsolete. Lucky Charms is Galvatron. Anyway: the moral of the film is that there is now, officially, absolutely no difference between autobots and decepticons, except for Optimus's newfound religious fundamentalism. It is now a matter of Cybertronians fighting the dark god. Lockdown flies a literal hand-of-god spaceship* whose interior is like an evil mirror of both Cade's barn and Joyce's lab. (There is absolutely no difference between Cade and Joyce either, except that one is more rich.) What we see at the end of the film is a temporary class truce. Rich and poor unite to stave off the evil invader from Outside. This is what happens in Matrix 3 and other stupid films, except here it's played for a joke. Hooray, we win a mansion! Everything is fixed! *Of course, Optimus rockets off in the middle finger.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:56
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MisterBibs posted:Megatron is never sympathetic or treated sympathetically, though. Only in a fanfic counterfactual that spawned the original thread is he sympathetic. I think they almost made him out to be 'slightly' more sympathetic in DotM, but only in part because he was pretty physically and mentally damaged throughout the film despite moments of being evil. I know it's totally not canon, but I'm pretty sure one of the novelizations of the movie sort of portrays the ending quite a bit differently where Megatron accepts Sentinel wasn't good for the cause or him, that the war is over and agrees to peacefully leave Earth with the other Decepticons to restart their society somewhere else.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Here's something notable: Lockdown's dogs aren't robots. You can see the flesh through the gaps in their armor - they are organic creatures. His subordinates are also clearly organic alien people in cloth suits, not robots. Close, but the pack of hyena dog things weren't an either/or case but a full mix of mechanical metal based tech and organic tissue. The humanoid minions seemed fully mechanical, but I wasn't focusing on them very hard. That quick shot of the creator species hand was very similar in construction to Lockdown's pack. So from the creator species POV, there's no huge difference between building their tools out of metal or flesh, which should be enough to send a shiver down humanity's collective spine.
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Jul 1, 2014 11:19
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Lockdown is the guy who, basically, found out God exists and obviously communed enough with that intelligence to understand and accept his place as their cosmic enforcer. He's no mere bounty hunter, what with his perspective on how the Autobots and Decepticons are a mess that he has to clean up, along with all his talk of a chess board being wiped clean. Prime finds out God still exists from someone who is basically their messenger (while Prime knows worlds had been cyberformed he evidently thought that the Creators had all died), and decides that he has to go kill them. Oh, and Galvatron also claims that he's giving the Earth-created Transformers 'freedom' if they perform a certain task for him. Prime says the same thing to the Dinobots but appends a threat to the end of it.
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Jul 1, 2014 13:45
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:But in this case, Galvatron is literally based on Optimus. He's not a resurrected Megatron, he's a version of Optimus without a soul. Honest Thief fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 14:24
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http://variety.com/2014/film/news/michael-bay-responds-transformers-criticism-1201254031/ According to the director, even his biggest critics will end up watching “Transformers: Age of Extinction,” the latest installment in his ever-growing franchise. “They love to hate and I don’t care; let them hate,” he told MTV’s Josh Horowitz. “They’re still going to see the movie! I think it’s good to get a little tension. Very good.” http://www.gq.com/entertainment/movies-and-tv/201107/michael-bay-oral-history "Loud." "Stupid." "Horrible." "Unbearable." "Appalling." "Evil." "A great grinding garbage disposal of a movie." "An assault on the eyes, the ears, the brain, common sense and the human desire to be entertained." In 1998, a national magazine asked in an article "Is Michael Bay the Devil?" Thirteen years later, you can still buy T-shirts that answer yes. The 46-year-old director has long been treated by cineastes as the macho spawn of Ed Wood—a testosterone-sweating embodiment of everything that is wrong with modern Hollywood. (Those quotes up there are from actual reviews of his movies.) It also doesn't help his image that on his film sets he can be a notoriously domineering prick. ... Bay: I was into these very advanced trains sets, with towns and cities and whatever, the detail of it. I remember my parents came to me: "Michael, we think you need to get outside more." And I'm thinking, "Am I hosed up?" ... Bay: By week two, Martin was being a dick to me. And I was like, "What is this attitude?" He didn't trust the white man. That was the deal. ... Bay: The scene where Martin shoots the guy out of the plane. I said to the line producer, "This is where the audience claps. This is the end of the movie." He was like, "I don't care. We're not doing the shot." He was just a studio flunky. I was literally going to punch him out. ... Bay: I don't change my style for anybody. Pussies do that. ... Bay: It got pounded by critics. It's funny with them. You are making entertainment. People get so angry about it. ... Spielberg: I couldn't think of a better director to turn a truck into a robot and make us believe it was really happening. Brian Goldner (CEO, Hasbro): He knew that Transformers existed; he knew that they were robots and cars, but he didn't know all the mythology. Bryce: I think Michael would be the first to say that he didn't get it in the beginning. Bay: I thought it was a dumb idea. Josh Duhamel (actor, Transfomers): Michael poked his head [into a meeting] to say hello and started telling me about his next project, a movie called Transformers. And I go "Transformers? Like the cartoon from the '80s?" and he's like "Yeah, yeah," and he's all excited about it. And I was thinking, This is the worst idea ever. Alex Kurtzman (screenwriter, Transformers series): It's about a boy who's really obsessed with getting a car. That's when we saw Michael's eyes light up like he was a 12-year-old again. Spielberg: It was Michael's sense of humor that would allow audiences to take Transformers just seriously enough. Goodman: It became Michael's mission to make the most pop, commercially successful movie he could, because he wanted to. And because he needed to. Bay: Steven wanted me to do it. It was, like, a kiddie script. He goes, "Michael, I wanna be your new Jerry. How do I compare to him?" So funny. He's like a kid. ... Bay: I did Transformers: Dark of the Moon because the studio president came to me, he says: "I'm going to get loving fired." I really looked him in the eye, and I'm like, "It's a lot of work." ... Before filming began on Transformers: Dark of the Moon, controversy struck. In an interview with the British magazine Wonderland, star Megan Fox said Bay "wants to be like Hitler on his sets, and he is. So he's a nightmare to work for." Kruger: She was there for rehearsals. But she seemed like an actress who didn't want to be a part of it. She was saying she wanted to, but she wasn't acting like it. Bay: She was in a different world, on her BlackBerry. You gotta stay focused. And you know, the Hitler thing. Steven [Spielberg] said, "Fire her right now." LaBeouf: Criticism is one thing. Then there's public name-calling, which turns into high school bashing. Which you can't do. She started poo poo-talking our captain. Bay: I wasn't hurt, because I know that's just Megan. Megan loves to get a response. And she does it in kind of the wrong way. I'm sorry, Megan. I'm sorry I made you work twelve hours. I'm sorry that I'm making you show up on time. Movies are not always warm and fuzzy. [Editors note: Fox declined to comment for this article.] ... LaBeouf: It was probably the worst argument I've ever had with a co-worker—under a spaceship, screaming at him, "You motherfucker!" All this insanity. Really crazy stuff that I don't feel comfortable repeating, actually. Really gnarly. Bay: So I ignored him for three days, and that just drives him nuts. "Mike, I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry!" I've had to do a little parenting with Shia, but he's a great kid. ... LaBeouf: He's not at all this alpha male, this machismo legend poo poo—he's not any of these things. You know what he is? New York. If you can make it on a Bay set, you can make it on any set." http://www.polygon.com/2014/6/30/5857506/Transformers-bay-300-million "BEN KUCHERA These aren't just male fantasies, because Hollywood is full of those. These are, specifically, conservative male fantasies, and that's a point of view that's normally completely ignored in Hollywood. In Michael Bay movies, it's the blue-collar men who save the world while the incompetent or ineffective government watches. We're all single dads who look like Marky Mark inventing things in our garage, until it's time to be an action hero. The Rock featured a dorky scientist — who, of course, is in a relationship with a once-prom queen because in Bay's films every character gets the supermodel — who comes to life when he's put in situations that require him to kill people. If you would just let me out of this lab, away from my vinyl, I could be an action hero as well. Pain and Gain deals with men who spend all their time working on their bodies, and they believe that somehow good things will come to them because they're good people. It's a series of characters who believe that life has friend-zoned them, and it's time to stop being the nice guy. The Transformers series delivers the work of a director who knows what he's doing, knows how to get his point of view across and panders to an underserved market while providing perfect popcorn movies that require no thought and offer the maximum emotional payoff. They deliver their messages with the strength and subtlety of a hand grenade: You are smarter than your bosses, you deserve the most attractive women in the world and if circumstances were different you'd be the biggest hero this world has ever seen. It's not a cynical ploy, because as you pointed out, Michael Bay actually believes all these things. That belief is infectious, comforting and worth the $12 movie ticket to people who want to watch a beautiful, focused movie about the "hidden" greatness of the American male. ... Muton I may get flamebait modded or moderated in general for this, but frankly Transformers is a break for me. In a world where everything has to be moderated in the context of politically correctness, where masculinity is often pushed down as something offensive and in opposition to feminism, where people and emotions and understanding are considered the norm and “quality” for movies, sometimes it’s nice to have an outlet that caters to my inner 4 year old that destroyed everything he could get his hands on. ... secularsage The bottom line question is, “Why does this series resonate with audiences when it’s so critically reviled?” The answer is that it follows the same formula that a lot of television shows (including reality shows) make use of: drawing the viewer into a world where powerful, subconscious wishes are fulfilled in a realm of heightened fantasy. The film is designed to appeal to the sensibilities of a young man because, I would suggest, Michael Bay has never outgrown those sensibilities and knows how to use them to pander to an audience that shares them. I’d also suggest that the reasons The Transformers films are so wildly successful is because they depict a view of the world that has more in common with the language of advertising than with conventional storytelling. Cars are cool and capable of making one’s life interesting; women are sultry and hyper-sexualized; jobs and bosses are a pathetic joke; parents are caricatures; familiar places are backdrops for breathtaking visuals that reference shared culture. That’s some powerful, subconscious stuff, and to those who get hooked, it can be hard to explain why these movies are so broadly watchable even when, from a story perspective, they’re incredibly awful. (I can’t stand them myself, but then, I work in marketing research and am a bit more familiar with the nuts and bolts of advertising messaging.)" Assepoester fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 14:32
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^^^ thanks for that lovely rear end quoting jobquote:[i]"BEN KUCHERA Did this guy watch Pain and Gain? quote:because, I would suggest, Michael Bay has never outgrown those sensibilities and knows how to use them to pander to an audience that shares them. On the contrary, I'd say that he has.
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Jul 1, 2014 14:53
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Maarak posted:Also, remember that scene of Optimus driving through the desert and his thugs emerging from the landscape to join his posse? http://vimeo.com/3159970 and its companion http://vimeo.com/3160074 Someone put the scene on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_TAwH0-frk It's very hard not to cringe at the giant metal aliens treating that natural beauty of the West like it's some kind of skateboard park.
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Jul 1, 2014 14:55
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The day CineD agrees with Ben Kuchera, someone even Games loathes, is the day CineD should disappear up its own rear end
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Jul 1, 2014 15:47
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Mornacale posted:(One might argue that they are allies, but that's belied by the fact that the one and only time Optimus ever accedes to U.S. leadership is actually a ruse to manipulate the public into doing what he wants. An alliance where one side calls all the shots is not really an alliance.) I don't know how true that is about it being the "one and only time," given that an entire joint operational force got set up between the Autobots and the Pentagon which lasted for several years in which no public or private manipulation took place. The difference of course being that NEST was set up when the existence of the Transformers wasn't public knowledge such that it wouldn't have to get through the US legislative branch. One of the odder things about the first three films is how, in contrast to the GI Joe films, they go well out of their way to show "yes, this is happening during the presidencies of George W Bush and Barack Obama." The footage accompanying the US's insistence that the Autobots leave the planet is that of John Boehner/the House of Representatives. I am thus more than willing to accept that "fine, we'll do what you say [doesn't completely do it because the need to course correct will be very soon]" would legitimately be the only way to convince THAT Congress that they were wrong. Mornacale posted:The one and only time in any of the four films that a human character actually speaks to Megatron, he comes through and saves the day; when humans ask Optimus to do something, he pouts, refuses, and lies to us. One wonders what could have happened if the original humans to find Megatron had simply spoken to him and helped him, or if anyone at any point had attempted diplomacy instead of going straight to genocide. The main human requests to Optimus Prime are by way of government forces requesting he hand over energy weapons technology to them. As we all learned from Sid Meier's Civilization games, giving away weapons technology to your allies is a request you generally don't ever want to comply with, especially if it's something that would significantly upgrade the other civilization's military. I can't fault Prime's logic here (you telling me videogame logic isn't universally applicable?!). As for Megatron: the original humans to find him were incapable of speaking to him or helping him, as only the Cube/Allspark was capable of doing that. We thus witnessed firsthand exactly how Megatron's first conscious, sentient contact with humans goes: he immediately starts trying to kill us and harvest the Allspark's power, which will enable all electronic technology to come to life and immediately start killing people because they are derived from Megatron himself. For what it's worth, Megatron does talk to other humans prior to talking to Carly. It was just always while he had them under duress. Mornacale posted:You also claim it's impossible to incarcerate the Decepticons despite the fact that Megatron started the first movie having been incarcerated for a century. Finally, you say that Prime murdering a human is okay due to "innocent people in immediate danger," but the only danger innocents were facing in that film was caused by Optimus himself. After all, the battle in question was not against Decepticons at all, but rather a bounty hunter sent to arrest Optimus Prime. If he wanted to protect innocents, all he had to do was turn himself in. The Seed was already safely out of the city. It, like all of Optimus's actions, was pure selfishness and desire for power/revenge. I don't think these assessments of events are fully accurate. Recall that the only way that Megatron in the films is able to be successfully confined to a set location and unable to do harm is when he is rendered non-functional/dead beforehand: conditions that are not only reversible but unable to be induced by ordinary people. Every scenario in which a still-active Autobot or Decepticon which is larger than a person gets placed in confinement in these films fails relatively quickly, typically because there's invariably several other Transformers to secure their release. The best shot of permanently removing the threat of a Transformer is to have them killed AND to do so in such a way that their body isn't intact. And even that's no guarantee. But the only way you can arrive at the conclusion "the only danger innocents were facing in [Age of Extinction] was caused by Optimus himself" is through absolving Lockdown, KSI, and the CIA of responsibility. For one, the Seed is clearly NOT "safely out of the city" as its blast radius is quite substantial; it would cover much of the Mongolian desert. You use the term "arrest" to describe Lockdown's actions, but the bounties he hunts are not typically brought in alive and he doesn't give any of his targets an opportunity to turn themselves in. He's an assassin that snipes his targets at range unannounced before executing them up close, such that all anyone knows is "we're being hunted by him." The only reason they know even that much is because Optimus Prime is the only one to survive an initial encounter with him. By the time it's known that "Lockdown won't actually kill Optimus Prime" the Seed is already on Earth and in the possession of forces willing to use it. Why is that? It's because Lockdown gave it to them. He's responsible for that, not Optimus Prime. The CIA and KSI are able to harvest Transformers because Lockdown supplies the corpses, and THEY are doing so out of desire for power. The direct responsibility for Galvatron's creation lies not with Optimus Prime for killing Megatron, but with KSI for acquiring his body and holding Brains in captivity (I do appreciate that they gave him little tiny casts to sell what were presumed fatal injuries to him and Wheelie). The CIA directly activates Galvatron and his weapons at the cost of American civilian lives. The Autobots didn't do that. Optimus Prime didn't do that. He's not even the immediate cause of that. "He attacked the building that we were shipping the corpses of his friends to in order to conduct quasi-legal research" is a shaky justification. By the time Prime is captured, it's known that Galvatron exists and can potentially acquire a new Decepticon army through infecting KSI's machines. When the Lockdown-provided Seed is added to that, it makes Prime's escape a top priority (which per the previous paragraph is something the other Transformers invariably orchestrate without being told to do so) because if Optimus simply remains incarcerated, the Seed gets detonated and millions die. Prime escaping is not the cause of human endangerment. Lockdown's complete amorality with regards to whether humans live or die is. Daryl Surat fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 16:38
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3 posted:Optimus Prime is a loving liar. In the first film, he shows Sam a vision of a hellish, apocalyptic Cybertron which by the third movie has been shown to be blatantly untrue by Cybertron itself making a surprise guest appearance above the planet. Robot Hobo fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 18:50
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Robot Hobo posted:Or the alternate read on this could be that Cybertron was a ruined hellscape when Optimus was there, but once he and his thugs left on their All-Spark hunt, the survivors left behind were able to fix things. Cybertron was a ruined hellscape when Optimus was there, owing to the whole "Megatron turning Cybertron into a hellish landscape to get the AllSpark to power his plans of conquest" thing.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:08
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Daryl Surat posted:But the only way you can arrive at the conclusion "the only danger innocents were facing in [Age of Extinction] was caused by Optimus himself" is through absolving Lockdown, KSI, and the CIA of responsibility. For one, the Seed is clearly NOT "safely out of the city" as its blast radius is quite substantial; it would cover much of the Mongolian desert. You use the term "arrest" to describe Lockdown's actions, but the bounties he hunts are not typically brought in alive and he doesn't give any of his targets an opportunity to turn themselves in. He's an assassin that snipes his targets at range unannounced before executing them up close, such that all anyone knows is "we're being hunted by him." The only reason they know even that much is because Optimus Prime is the only one to survive an initial encounter with him. By the time it's known that "Lockdown won't actually kill Optimus Prime" the Seed is already on Earth and in the possession of forces willing to use it. Why is that? It's because Lockdown gave it to them. He's responsible for that, not Optimus Prime. The CIA and KSI are able to harvest Transformers because Lockdown supplies the corpses, and THEY are doing so out of desire for power. The direct responsibility for Galvatron's creation lies not with Optimus Prime for killing Megatron, but with KSI for acquiring his body and holding Brains in captivity (I do appreciate that they gave him little tiny casts to sell what were presumed fatal injuries to him and Wheelie). The CIA directly activates Galvatron and his weapons at the cost of American civilian lives. The Autobots didn't do that. Optimus Prime didn't do that. He's not even the immediate cause of that. "He attacked the building that we were shipping the corpses of his friends to in order to conduct quasi-legal research" is a shaky justification. The crucial point of this film is that KSI and the CIA behave exactly like the Autobots did in previous films. The drones are literally copied from the Autobots. Those Autobots (and NEST) were already so awful that the only way to make them worse is to make them look cartoonishly evil - with black-painted cars, ridiculous trenchcoat outfits, etc. The only difference between the Autobots and Decepticons is who is currently in power. They are absolutely identical except that Galvatron is an atheist. The crucial line is "underdogs suck". That, and the constant use of the word "bitch" by the ostensible goodguys cuts right to the heart of it. The opening scene shows a bunch of little dinosaurs squabbling over something unimportant. The largest one smacks the smaller one down, and feels good for a while. Then the world ends, the bombs fall, and the bigger dinosaur only barely survives by outrunning the others. This imagery recurs. Lucas, Cade's subordinate, is too stupid and slow. Everyone else outruns the blast, and Lucas goes extinct. He's the underdog - the bitch who drives a Mini and can't play football. He believes he's equal but he's not. His forehead is marked 'like a Star Trek alien' - he's inferior. The extinction of the dinosaurs is always presented as a mythic morality play - especially in documentaries. In Dinotasia, one of the greatest dinosaur films, Werner Herzog admonishes the dinosaurs for not being able to look up and realize how futile their day-to-day existence is. There's a cut from the frozen corpse of a T-Rex to the Chrysler Building's gargoyles, saying you're next. However, Dinotasia praises the smallest dinosaurs that survived the apocalypse and evolved into birds. And that's the secret lesson of TF4's opening sequence: the larger dinosaur is still miniscule compared to the T-Rexes and Brontosaurs that get obliterated. It's exactly his 'bitch-like' qualities that allow him to survive. Instead of learning from his example, Optimus resurrects the frozen giants. One more important detail: Galvatron self-identifies as Galvatron. That's not his name; he's Megatron. So why does he adopt this focus-tested, trademarked name? He is acting as a grim parody, deliberately subverting it. Also, Galvatron is presented as a synthesis of Megatron and Sentinel Prime. Brains was hooked up to both of them! SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 19:51
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Neurolimal posted:Age of Extinction is a lot like Prometheus, in that you should probably watch a better movie instead Screw you. Atleast Prometheus had decent set peices and OK direction, no matter how dumb the script was.
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Jul 1, 2014 21:37
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A teaser for the Transformers 4 soundtrack is up on iTunes. It contains 'Hunted' which I think is the song from the climax of the film between Cade, Attinger, Lockdown and Optimus, Lockdown's theme, the heavy drum music from when the Autobots meet up ('Autobots Reunite') and 'Tessa' which plays during some of the farm scenes early on.
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Jul 2, 2014 02:01
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A fun detail I just realized: Kelsey Grammar's deck of cards has Ironhide (the black truck) on one of the cards, crossed out. This means his list of targets predates the battle of Chicago. Ironhide was killed by Sentinel Prime before that event ever occurred.
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Jul 2, 2014 02:14
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:A fun detail I just realized: I'm waiting for a good picture of the cards when he lays them out on the table to see the particulars of them all.
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Jul 2, 2014 02:43
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