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pentyne posted:There's a reason Lucas hated Kotor 2.
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Jul 2, 2014 11:19
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Raygereio posted:I doubt George Lucas was even aware that the game exists. LucasArts certainly screwed the game over, but that was just your standard "we want a quick buck and don't really give a poo poo about the quality of the product"-level publisher stuff. That too. I can't remember if it was ropekid on these forums or Chris Avellone when giving an interview recently but they fully expected to run into problems with the tone they took regarding the Force and Jedi as far as the content holders permission and when nothing happened they just decided to go all in with it.
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Jul 2, 2014 11:43
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Hell there was an interview with the head of Obsidiab a while back where he said they showed the game to Lucasarts early on and they really liked it and said they'd give it a few extra months in development to fully live up to its potential. Sadly they didn't put it in writing and ended up changing their minds.
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Jul 2, 2014 13:38
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pentyne posted:There's a reason Lucas hated Kotor 2. The devs were sure that all the stuff Kreia went on about the force and how it was never as simple as light/dark would've been cut but their production schedule was so rushed that luckily it stayed in. You want rewarding Dark Side interactions Kotor 2 is the only game that does it right. Man Kotor 2 owned. By far the most interesting Star Wars plot I've seen since the original movies. I was so interested in the "menace beyond the galaxy" that Revan left to fight and was disappointed to find out it was just more goddamn Sith.
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Jul 2, 2014 14:55
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TheChirurgeon posted:Man Kotor 2 owned. By far the most interesting Star Wars plot I've seen since the original movies. I was so interested in the "menace beyond the galaxy" that Revan left to fight and was disappointed to find out it was just more goddamn Sith. I found the retcon of the exile, KOTOR II Revan, the sith lords, and the whole plot to be more disappointing than the Sith Empire reveal. George and Bioware really went to town on KOTOR II with sadistic glee.
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Jul 2, 2014 15:07
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Yeah they played down Nihilus, made the Exile die like a bitch for no reason, and turned Revan into a mid-level raid boss for... some reason. TOR was a mess. Also for some hosed in the head reason I kinda wanna play DA2 with the DLC but there doesn't seem to be a cheap all-included pack and I don't even know where the main thing is so I'd be stuck shelling out like $40 sooooooo gently caress that noise.
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Jul 2, 2014 15:33
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Shugojin posted:Yeah they played down Nihilus, made the Exile die like a bitch for no reason, and turned Revan into a mid-level raid boss for... some reason. TOR was a mess. I have no idea where you are, but Amazon in the UK have a boxed copy available from a 3rd party seller for £5.95. So even buying Mark of the Assassin, Legacy and the Exiled Prince on top of that, you're looking at £20 at the most.
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Jul 2, 2014 15:38
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I want to remember the threat Kreia warned against that Revan was supposed to be handling was the True Sith, like, the original flavor not the watered down ones found in the games or movies.
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Jul 2, 2014 15:41
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Shugojin posted:Yeah they played down Nihilus, made the Exile die like a bitch for no reason, and turned Revan into a mid-level raid boss for... some reason. TOR was a mess. It just shows how little LucasArts cared about continuity because the golden rule was "Movies first, then whatever we say is canon, books/games" Bioware probably had a ton of leeway given the game was costing up to $200 million and everyone tagged it as the next WoW, so if they wanted to rewrite past games/comics then no one was going to say no. CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:I want to remember the threat Kreia warned against that Revan was supposed to be handling was the True Sith, like, the original flavor not the watered down ones found in the games or movies. She made it seem like a much more insidious threat, like a war of philosophies rather spaceships blowing up planets, and the True Sith would win by converting the galaxy to their ways rather then wrecking it.
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Jul 2, 2014 15:42
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:I want to remember the threat Kreia warned against that Revan was supposed to be handling was the True Sith, like, the original flavor not the watered down ones found in the games or movies. It was a Sith Empire, presumably one that was not full of all the unproductive backstabbing you can shake a stick at. Also re: my inability to reobtain DA2, there's only used copies and I'm leery as poo poo of buying used discs. Also, I found it, so I'm just gonna get some terrible DLC and hop back on this poo poo train.
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Jul 2, 2014 15:45
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Shugojin posted:Yeah they played down Nihilus, made the Exile die like a bitch for no reason, and turned Revan into a mid-level raid boss for... some reason. TOR was a mess. If you want "snazzy" outfits then just get the all-in-one Mage/Rogue/Warrior packs for the outfits and overpowered weapons. The Exiled Prince wasn't worth it IMO but Legacy and MotA are weird, campy fun and I replay them all the time. Totally worth it just for the amount of time I put into them. Edit: the Rogue pack is what makes it worth it to play as an archer (until you get to Act 3 and get your hands on the Bassrath-Kata.) Legacy also gives you cool swag. HIJK fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 15:46
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HIJK posted:If you want "snazzy" outfits then just get the all-in-one Mage/Rogue/Warrior packs for the outfits and overpowered weapons. The Exiled Prince wasn't worth it IMO but Legacy and MotA are weird, campy fun and I replay them all the time. Totally worth it just for the amount of time I put into them. Exiled prince gives you a decent character writing-wise. The other two are kind of a slog to play through (like the rest of DA2), but they have story tie-ins. If you buy one, buy Legacy since that will probably serve as the basis for DA3.
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Jul 2, 2014 15:51
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The Force was only set up to be kept terrible by Lucas or salvaged by Obsidian because the prequels made it into a dumb video gamey, power-levelled ~magic system~ in the first place 
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Jul 2, 2014 16:01
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ElrondHubbard posted:Exiled prince gives you a decent character writing-wise. The other two are kind of a slog to play through (like the rest of DA2), but they have story tie-ins. If you buy one, buy Legacy since that will probably serve as the basis for DA3. Sebastian is your only (bow) archer party member, unapologetically straight, and won't sleep with you even if you are a lady because he is not a member of David Gaider presents Joss Whedon's Fuckfest Jamboree. The best party members are Aveline, Varric, Sebastian, and your sibling. You should probably be a mage. Guess why.
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Jul 2, 2014 17:22
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Didn't Chris Avellone said at some point that for KotoR 2 he read all of the Extended Universe poo poo, hated it, so he wrote the story to point out all the dumb stuff in Star Wars?
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Jul 2, 2014 18:36
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Are you guys done sucking Obsidian's dick yet? Because KOTOR 2 was lovely morality wise, just like KOTOR 1, and just like every game Bioware or Obsidian have ever made with any kind of morality (except Alpha Protocol). This whole 'shades of grey' poo poo and how the light and dark being extremes is stupid? It comes up twice total in the game. Once on Nar Shaddaa where you either give a beggar some money (then he gets mugged by someone else) or threaten to rip his head off (then he goes and kills someone for their money), and once at the end of the game where Kreia goes all evil and is like WE WILL DESTROY THE FORCE BLARGH THE LIGHT AND DARK ARE BOTH TERRIBLE. Seriously, the darkside and lightside choices are just as space jesus vs space satan as any other game. "Ah yes, I can either free this slave and not ask for anything in return, or kill her for no reason." "Oh yes, I can either murder this innocent civilian, or let him leave because there's no reason to kill him" "Ah yes, do I let the corrupt Councillor running on racist policies and being backed by the Sith rule this planet, or do I let the pure hearted woman who wants what's best for all her people, and has open and accepting policies?" Edit: Oh and my favorite from near the beginning of the game "Do I side with the peaceful guys who have an actual plan and the ability to repair the planet, or a brutal corporation that is open about how all it cares about is the profits involved with being able to get to the surface." KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 18:58
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KittyEmpress posted:Are you guys done sucking Obsidian's dick yet? Because KOTOR 2 was lovely morality wise, just like KOTOR 1, and just like every game Bioware or Obsidian have ever made with any kind of morality (except Alpha Protocol). This whole 'shades of grey' poo poo and how the light and dark being extremes is stupid? It comes up twice total in the game. Once on Nar Shaddaa where you either give a beggar some money (then he gets mugged by someone else) or threaten to rip his head off (then he goes and kills someone for their money), and once at the end of the game where Kreia goes all evil and is like WE WILL DESTROY THE FORCE BLARGH THE LIGHT AND DARK ARE BOTH TERRIBLE. This is one of the reasons why I had such a hard time finishing KOTOR 2. I can see what Obsidian was trying to do but it all felt so smug and self-congratulatory. "Ah yes, we recognize such petty things like MORALITY are too childish for this gray on gray world. Contemplate the black and white choices we give you and feel like a lovely human being for choosing one over the other, as a real adult should, regardless of the positive or negative effects." And this is after each choice has been coded as good or bad. I also don't get the Kreia love. She was full of it. Her solution is a non-solution. Moral relativism is not a viable reaction to corrupt institutions. Dragon Age: Inquisition > more KOTOR wank
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Jul 2, 2014 19:22
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Exiled Prince and Legacy are pretty cool and fun, Sebastian is an enjoyable character who also adds a lot of dialogue for Grand Cleric Elthina, since the Chantry is his home base and she has several conversations with Hawke about him. Exiled Prince also adds a lategame quest where you meet Leliana. Mark of the Assassin is horrible. I don't mind Felicia Day or anything but her character is terribly written and she gives an awful performance. There's no compelling reason for Hawke to go along with her plan at all, and surprise surprise, when you're railroaded into doing so anyway, she screws you over. I enjoy DA2's silliness for the most part but Mark of the Assassin dips below "goofy fun-bad" in writing terms and into "unequivocally terrible".
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Jul 2, 2014 19:22
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Android Blues posted:Exiled Prince and Legacy are pretty cool and fun, Sebastian is an enjoyable character who also adds a lot of dialogue for Grand Cleric Elthina, since the Chantry is his home base and she has several conversations with Hawke about him. Exiled Prince also adds a lategame quest where you meet Leliana. I never took the choice at the end to not help her- does it make you help her anyway?
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Jul 2, 2014 19:25
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I like Kreia as a character but she's a despicable human being and her plan is full of poo poo. KOTOR 2 is basically Planescape in space so there's that, a lot of the iffy choices can be glossed over by the rest being really good. (Also a lot of the stuff it 'fixed' about the EU was already covered by Timothy Zahn )
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Jul 2, 2014 19:26
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I like Kotor 2 enough but really Kotor 1 is a better Star Wars game that made much better use of the license. KOTOR 2 is basically just an excuse to completely change the whole ethos of Star Wars and see if it works (it doesn't).
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Jul 2, 2014 19:28
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As much as I love KotOR II, it does commit one unforgivable sin that is later mirrored in Dragon Age II; forcing a certain party member on you based on something arbitrary, where one is undeniably more interesting than the other. In Dragon Age II, it was Bethany and Carver. And in KotOR II... it was Disciple, and Handmaiden. I mean, the latter character isn't even all that stunning in personality, but gently caress me if Disciple wasn't the worst primordial version of Kaidan Alenko ever. God help you if you ever play a female Exile like I did.
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Jul 2, 2014 19:31
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Generic American posted:As much as I love KotOR II, it does commit one unforgivable sin that is later mirrored in Dragon Age II; forcing a certain party member on you based on something arbitrary, where one is undeniably more interesting than the other. In Dragon Age II, it was Bethany and Carver. And in KotOR II... it was Disciple, and Handmaiden. I mean, the latter character isn't even all that stunning in personality, but gently caress me if Disciple wasn't the worst primordial version of Kaidan Alenko ever. God help you if you ever play a female Exile like I did. The difference is that I actually like Bethany and I like how Carver grows, while no one likes the Disciple. To the point where they went and said 'yeah, the disciple never existed, the canon woman Exile had the Handmaiden'
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Jul 2, 2014 19:33
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Leelee posted:I never took the choice at the end to not help her- does it make you help her anyway? Kinda. There's a small divergent section, but then you meet back up with her again when you come across Duke Prosper, and that cutscene/bossfight plays out almost identically regardless of what you picked. The quest ends the same either way - Tallis always gets the list of names, escapes clean, and gives Hawke the Heart of the Many to make up for their trouble.
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Jul 2, 2014 19:38
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Android Blues posted:Kinda. There's a small divergent section, but then you meet back up with her again when you come across Duke Prosper, and that cutscene/bossfight plays out almost identically regardless of what you picked. The quest ends the same either way - Tallis always gets the list of names, escapes clean, and gives Hawke the Heart of the Many to make up for their trouble.
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Jul 2, 2014 19:41
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KittyEmpress posted:Are you guys done sucking Obsidian's dick yet? Gonna have to wait for Josh Sawyer's RPG: Suck My Dick to be released for that mate.
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Jul 2, 2014 20:06
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Furism posted:Gonna have to wait for Josh Sawyer's RPG: Suck My Dick to be released for that mate. I'm preordering it right now for the bonus reacharound DLC.
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Jul 2, 2014 20:14
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Furism posted:Gonna have to wait for Josh Sawyer's RPG: Suck My Dick to be released for that mate.  I would honestly play this game.
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Jul 2, 2014 20:17
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KittyEmpress posted:Are you guys done sucking Obsidian's dick yet? Because KOTOR 2 was lovely morality wise, just like KOTOR 1, and just like every game Bioware or Obsidian have ever made with any kind of morality (except Alpha Protocol). This whole 'shades of grey' poo poo and how the light and dark being extremes is stupid? It comes up twice total in the game. Once on Nar Shaddaa where you either give a beggar some money (then he gets mugged by someone else) or threaten to rip his head off (then he goes and kills someone for their money), and once at the end of the game where Kreia goes all evil and is like WE WILL DESTROY THE FORCE BLARGH THE LIGHT AND DARK ARE BOTH TERRIBLE. I have to wonder if people remember all the bad stuff in KOTOR 2, like the excruciatingly long tutorial dungeon, the floating robotic crimelord, having to game the systemthe to min/max points to actually get the interesting backstory from your crew, Disciple, etc. Basically everyone remembers Kreia and forgets the rest of the game.
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Jul 2, 2014 20:22
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monster on a stick posted:I have to wonder if people remember all the bad stuff in KOTOR 2, like the excruciatingly long tutorial dungeon, the floating robotic crimelord, having to game the systemthe to min/max points to actually get the interesting backstory from your crew, Disciple, etc. Basically everyone remembers Kreia and forgets the rest of the game. I remember playing the game, but mostly I remember the awesome Let's Play by Scorchy. I think it's the first time reading a LP was a better experience than actually playing a game. Poor Scorchy, that wore him out 
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Jul 2, 2014 20:29
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Yeah KOTOR 2 gets some rose-tinted glasses, but that doesn't mean it's not really good. Honestly I'd almost recommend the LP over the game. http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/
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Jul 2, 2014 20:33
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The Force as a concept is actually really fascinating to me: A boulder blocks your path. You can either meditate on what it truly means to be a boulder and what its proper place is in the universe, until you become one with the boulder and it moves out of the way for you; or you can get so intensely and irrationally angry at the obstruction that it's blasted out of the way through sheer emotion. Either way you lose a bit of your humanity for acting so strangely. I think there's a lot of potential in a proper philosophical treatment of the Force rather than slagging it as a simple "good vs. evil" split, but the Light/Dark-Meter doesn't work. Perhaps adding a humanity vs. impassive force of nature dimension would restore some of the inherent complexity.
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Jul 2, 2014 20:47
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Promethium posted:The Force as a concept is actually really fascinating to me: This is, sort of, touched on in the Consular missions in SWTOR: You learn that people fear Jedi almost as much as they do Sith, because at least the Sith do things consistent with (insane) emotions and feel and can be read and stuff. Jedi aren't able to be read, proper ones at least don't show emotion, even if they don't fully control them. It weirds people out and makes them uncomfortable to interact with them. Of course, past the one quest where that stuff is talked about, it's never brought up again.
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Jul 2, 2014 20:52
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Promethium posted:The Force as a concept is actually really fascinating to me: To derail into Star Wars chat, there's a theory floated in one of the handful of good novels that proper use of the Force is for guidance, and using it for raw power is what causes you to lose direction and fall to the dark side. I'd like to see a game that gave you a limited Force pool on a mission and gave you passive benefits (radar, bullet time, hints) the higher it was.
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Jul 2, 2014 20:54
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monster on a stick posted:I have to wonder if people remember all the bad stuff in KOTOR 2, like the excruciatingly long tutorial dungeon, the floating robotic crimelord, having to game the systemthe to min/max points to actually get the interesting backstory from your crew, Disciple, etc. Basically everyone remembers Kreia and forgets the rest of the game. Sorry but the good eclipses the bad. It happens sometimes Planescape: Torment probably has the best story in video games, but the game part plays like garbage. The great writing totally saves it. Like completely. If a game is entertaining enough to keep playing despite the flaws then it's probably doing something right.
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Jul 2, 2014 22:04
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FauxGateau posted:Sorry but the good eclipses the bad. It happens sometimes Planescape: Torment probably has the best story in video games, but the game part plays like garbage. The great writing totally saves it. Like completely. If a game is entertaining enough to keep playing despite the flaws then it's probably doing something right. But this is true in reverse as well. ME3 was fun to play and had a lovely ending. KOTOR 2 had really awful parts (that tutorial, the fact that you spend the first half of the game without lightsaber etc.) but had a much more interesting take on the typical Star Wars story than KOTOR 1 had. I'm still occasionally replaying the Icewind Dale games even though the story isn't revolutionary like in Planescape: Torment and the characters are in no way comparable to the Torment or even Baldur's Gate characters, but the game itself is very fun to play.
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Jul 2, 2014 22:13
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Torrannor posted:But this is true in reverse as well. ME3 was fun to play and had a lovely ending. KOTOR 2 had really awful parts (that tutorial, the fact that you spend the first half of the game without lightsaber etc.) but had a much more interesting take on the typical Star Wars story than KOTOR 1 had. I'm still occasionally replaying the Icewind Dale games even though the story isn't revolutionary like in Planescape: Torment and the characters are in no way comparable to the Torment or even Baldur's Gate characters, but the game itself is very fun to play. IWD2 is fantastically fun. Or was. I haven't played it in a few years, I'm not sure how forgiving of AD&D I would be nowadays.
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Jul 2, 2014 22:21
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Torrannor posted:But this is true in reverse as well. ME3 was fun to play and had a lovely ending. KOTOR 2 had really awful parts (that tutorial, the fact that you spend the first half of the game without lightsaber etc.) but had a much more interesting take on the typical Star Wars story than KOTOR 1 had. And KOTOR 2 also had a pretty lovely ending  Yes, it's clear that Obsidian wasn't able to finish "their" ending in time for the game to get published (thus the better ending with all the cut content) but I think this happened on ME3 as well (project lead not getting the extra time he wanted from EA, having to come up with an ending that they could feasibly implement at the last minute), and we know the DA2 devs griped about not having as much time.
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Jul 2, 2014 22:27
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Drifter posted:IWD2 is fantastically fun. Or was. I haven't played it in a few years, I'm not sure how forgiving of AD&D I would be nowadays. It's actually all 3rd edition, and plays quite alright even today. Certainly a hell of a lot more fun than Origins.
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Jul 2, 2014 22:31
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monster on a stick posted:And KOTOR 2 also had a pretty lovely ending I think there's a meaningful difference between having a set amount of time and not being allowed extra and having a set amount of time and having it pretty viciously truncated at the last second with no real warning. Not all of the problems with KoTOR2 can be laid at the feet of the time issue they were forced into, but it's not really the same thing as what happened with ME3.
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Jul 2, 2014 22:52
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