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You are all amateurs, murderholes need a smooth stainless floor dished toward the center. Cleanup? Swab everything toward the middle with bleach then flush what collects with more bleach. Diamondplate is impossible to clean thoroughly and quickly. (Cleaning up the pits at a quicklube with industrial degreaser is remarkably like cleaning up a butcher shop, really. gently caress cleaning diamondplate floors and stair treads forever.)
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Jul 2, 2014 03:52
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It's not my house, so I'm just going to set the whole thing on fire.
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Jul 2, 2014 03:57
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Missing Name posted:It's not my house, so I'm just going to set the whole thing on fire. Exactly. Don't poo poo where you eat.
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Jul 2, 2014 03:59
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kastein posted:You are all amateurs, murderholes need a smooth stainless floor dished toward the center. Cleanup? Swab everything toward the middle with bleach then flush what collects with more bleach. I used to work for the police in their digital forensics unit, and dropped in on the Kyoto police headquarters in Japan when there on holiday just to say hello. I don't speak a word of Japanese, but my friend who I was traveling with had a decent grasp and so translated for us. Anyway, at one point we were shown a little room that was apparently a space for the accused to speak privately with their lawyer. It was all stainless steel, and I'm almost certain the floor had a drain in it. I don't doubt it was used to conduct some sort of conversation with the accused, but I doubt a lawyer was involved.
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Jul 2, 2014 04:26
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LeJackal posted:The woods? Where people picnic and overly romantic couples gently caress? What the hell is wrong with you? Cut out the middle 
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Jul 2, 2014 04:28
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So, uh, about those workshop plans. The highlighted board is a rafter tie whose top is exactly 1/3rd of the way up the rafter. Well, I haven't modeled the tapers onto the ends of the tie so it butts up against the rafters properly, but you get the idea. The main thing is, it's 12' 6" long. Technically this is fine -- the code's limit for 2x6 rafter ties made from SS-grade Douglas fir is 13' (from the "uninhabitable attics with limited storage" table, R802.4(2)). I still feel like a) I'm going to have to pay through the nose for SS-grade 2x6s that are at least 12' 6" long, and b) I'm cutting it pretty fine, limits-wise. I'm running into a number of limits that really constrict my options. The building can't have a peak more than 12' above grade; with a slab 6" above grade and 8'-tall walls, that gives me 3' 6" of space to work with. That's not a lot of space, so the roof slope is shallow (the image shows a 4:12 slope), so the rafter ties end up spanning most of the 16' width of the building. Short of making the building narrower or putting in a load-bearing wall right down the middle, I'm not sure what I can do here. Any suggestions? I can increase the width of the rafter ties to 2x8; then I'll have plenty of leeway as far as the code is concerned (e.g. I can drop to #2 grade and still be 9" below the limit). But I'd still have to find probably 14'-long boards for the ties. Is that plausible? Am I just worrying about nothing?
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Jul 2, 2014 04:47
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This wire was definitely set up by the kid from Family Circus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKZUFu97vus
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Jul 2, 2014 07:09
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Zemyla posted:This wire was definitely set up by the kid from Family Circus. Hooooool-ee poo poo. That is an impressively round-about way of rigging up something like that and seems like it involved more thought and effort than just properly running a line out.
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Jul 2, 2014 07:24
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How has noone suggest a porn viewing room yet? Stick a black light in it!
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Jul 2, 2014 10:56
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:So, uh, about those workshop plans. When you say 1/3 the way up the rafter, is that from the top plate, or from the end of the rafter? Because the tie does nothing for the unsupported ends that hang out over the wall. (More info here with the relevant 2006 IRC sections listed. Maybe it's changed since then.)
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Jul 2, 2014 13:35
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One Legged Ninja posted:When you say 1/3 the way up the rafter, is that from the top plate, or from the end of the rafter? Because the tie does nothing for the unsupported ends that hang out over the wall. (More info here with the relevant 2006 IRC sections listed. Maybe it's changed since then.) It's from the top plate. I know at least a little about how forces are distributed.
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Jul 2, 2014 14:45
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kastein posted:You are all amateurs, murderholes need a smooth stainless floor dished toward the center. Cleanup? Swab everything toward the middle with bleach then flush what collects with more bleach. Collateral Damage fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 16:09
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:It's from the top plate. I know at least a little about how forces are distributed. Sorry, didn't mean to sound condescending, I just wanted to make sure. I deal with a lot of people who don't know anything that they didn't see on HGTV.
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Jul 2, 2014 18:24
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No harm done. It's generally safe to assume people don't know what they're doing. Hell, just because I got this one bit right doesn't mean I'll get all the other bits right! So am I just worrying over nothing when it comes to needing to get ~13'-long rafter ties? I mean, there's a construction supply company vaguely in the area that says they do boards up to 26' long, but I have to assume cost, and the potential for knots/cracks/warping, grows nonlinearly with length.
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Jul 2, 2014 18:42
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:So am I just worrying over nothing when it comes to needing to get ~13'-long rafter ties? Yes. You are building a tiny structure that requires absolutely nothing special in terms of load capacity or length. How do you think wood frame houses are made? Certainly not exclusively out of 8 foot pieces of lumber.
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Jul 2, 2014 18:49
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Motronic posted:Yes. You are building a tiny structure that requires absolutely nothing special in terms of load capacity or length. They're made out of a whole pile of 5-7 foot long pieces glued together into a beam!
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Jul 2, 2014 21:00
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:They're made out of a whole pile of 5-7 foot long pieces glued together into a beam! That depends on what you're using, but a lot of modern engineered wood is much better than traditional lumber in just about every way. It's quite nice to work with dead straight 20+' lamibeams - this is something you simply can't find in traditional lumber anymore (if ever).
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Jul 2, 2014 21:09
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Motronic posted:Yes. You are building a tiny structure that requires absolutely nothing special in terms of load capacity or length. Well, fair enough. I've seen boards up to 12' long but never anything longer than that, so I assumed it was a special-order kind of thing. Shows what I know! As for houses, usually they have internal walls that you can run the boards to and that are closer together than 16'...though in hindsight, having open spaces over 12' wide isn't exactly uncommon either. The largest room in my parents' house had a gigantic beam running across the middle of its ceiling, though (which they recently tore out and replaced with a steel I-beam). Of course, that was supporting the second story's exterior wall. Too bad that LVL is (significantly) more expensive than normal lumber. I'd happily make the entire workshop out of the stuff if I could.
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Jul 2, 2014 21:31
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Well, fair enough. I've seen boards up to 12' long but never anything longer than that, so I assumed it was a special-order kind of thing. Shows what I know! "Real" lumber yards commonly have small dimensional lumber up to 24' and beams up to 35-40 in stock. Don't buy lumber from a big box store. You aren't saving any money buying poo poo wood (penny wise pound foolish) and you get to skip spending 4 hours sorting through piles of 2xs to try to find the 12-14 straight ones in each pallet.
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Jul 2, 2014 21:53
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Motronic posted:That depends on what you're using, but a lot of modern engineered wood is much better than traditional lumber in just about every way. It's quite nice to work with dead straight 20+' lamibeams - this is something you simply can't find in traditional lumber anymore (if ever). i wish i had a time machine so i could go back to the 20s and get some enormous redwood posts + beams.
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Jul 3, 2014 03:31
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atomicthumbs posted:i wish i had a time machine so i could go back to the 20s and get some enormous redwood posts + beams. Or go even further back and plant redwoods across the Great Plains like Johnny Appleseed.
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Jul 3, 2014 06:00
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From the PYF gif thread: Every time the angle grinder comes up I flinch.
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Jul 3, 2014 07:54
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General Specific posted:Or go even further back and plant redwoods across the Great Plains like Johnny Appleseed. They would die? Redwoods need a whole lot of water. On the other hand, they grow quite quickly, which is why redwood isn't ridiculously expensive even though the remaining forestries are quite limited. On the other other hand, while it lasts a long time due to having a lot of tannins, its a quite soft wood. I'd rather have a more solid hardwood than redwood for structural beams.
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Jul 3, 2014 08:57
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I'd really like a redwood on my yard but I am too far north for them to survive here I think.
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Jul 3, 2014 09:02
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His Divine Shadow posted:I'd really like a redwood on my yard but I am too far north for them to survive here I think. I am not a redwood expert, but a dawn redwood might work for you. They might not grow as tall as coast redwoods, and they don't have the same dark red bark, but I think they're still pretty. Unlike their relatives, they're actually deciduous trees, which may be a pro or a con depending on your viewpoint. I think it makes the foliage nicer because it's softer and brighter green, especially when the leaves are new.  Maybe the folks in the general plant thread or bonsai thread could tell you if one would work in your area?
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Jul 3, 2014 13:13
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atomicthumbs posted:i wish i had a time machine so i could go back to the 20s and get some enormous redwood posts + beams. As already noted, they are pretty soft. You also aren't likely to get many straight 20+ foot beams out of any tree unless you are paying big bucks for proper drying and finishing. Even then, you'll be picking though the pile for the truly straight ones without crowns or anything. LVL/SCL and other engineered lumber is not only perfectly straight but also much more sustainably made, often primarily out of waste products from dimensional lumber and smaller/different varieties of trees that would be unsuitable for regular dimensional.
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Jul 3, 2014 17:14
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I posted a while back about the AC unit in my new house filling it up with smoke (and my immediate realization that my landlord didn't have any smoke/CO detectors anywhere in the house). My landlord finally sent a guy over to look at it. Turns out, the 30A 220 outlet running it is way more than the unit will every need, and the motor leads melted the circuit board. Good stuff. The AC guy who came was nice enough to slice the cord off the AC unit and take it with him so that no one else would try and plug it in.
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Jul 3, 2014 18:49
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kelvron posted:Turns out, the 30A 220 outlet running it is way more than the unit will every need, and the motor leads melted the circuit board. Yeah, that's not how electricity works.
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Jul 3, 2014 18:56
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yeah, I have to agree with Motronic... the outlet only provides as much current as the load requires. However, the diagnosis of "that control board is letting the magic smoke out and is a fire hazard" is accurate. It just isn't because of the breaker size.
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Jul 3, 2014 18:59
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Motronic posted:"Real" lumber yards commonly have small dimensional lumber up to 24' and beams up to 35-40 in stock. What is the consensus on chain lumber yards like 84?
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Jul 3, 2014 19:07
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kastein posted:yeah, I have to agree with Motronic... the outlet only provides as much current as the load requires. Wouldn't the breaker being too high capacity cause that problem? His reason for getting there is wrong, but the break is definitely culpable. The A/C unit was drawing more current than the wires inside the control unit of the A/C could handle, but instead of the breaker tripping, the wires inside melted.
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Jul 3, 2014 19:09
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By that logic you couldn't plug a 100 watt lightbulb into a 15 amp circuit either. The house breaker protects the house wiring, which can't handle more than 30 amps. It doesn't protect appliances. The latter is why we have the underwriter's laboratory and smoke detectors.
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Jul 3, 2014 19:14
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slap me silly posted:By that logic you couldn't plug a 100 watt lightbulb into a 15 amp circuit either. The house breaker protects the house wiring, which can't handle more than 30 amps. It doesn't protect appliances. The latter is why we have the underwriter's laboratory and smoke detectors. I get what you mean here, but if an appliance is rated to use a 220V 30A outlet, wouldn't it make sense that in the entire circuit, not just the house wiring, but including the internal components, the weakest link would be the breaker? I'm wondering that they wouldn't make an A/C with a 220V 30A plug that would use more than that much power, so the internal wiring should be ok, but in the situation the guy posted, something was wrong with the AC so it was pulling more current than the internal wiring could handle, and it melted, but the confusing thing is why it didn't trip the breaker? If you connect an appliance that is designed for 110 into a 220 circuit, assuming the plug fits, which it probably wouldn't, and turned it on, you'd immediately burn up the appliance and then seconds later as the circuit resistance dropped to zero, because of all the insulation on the wiring melting off leaving a big interconnected ball of metal, the breaker would trip. The other option is the appliance melts but then instead of melting into a low resistance circuit it'd open up the circuit and the electricity would stop flowing entirely. In both situations the A/C doesn't run more than a few seconds before destroying itself and possibly tripping the breaker. I just can't figure out a condition that would both make an A/C continuously put out smoke because of melting insulation on conductors that would not also either trip the breaker or make the A/C turn off. The only possible option I can think of is that it's not really a 220V item, instead it's a 110V and instead of melting in seconds, it's working but slowly smoldering for a while. Is that possible? That would mean the plug was modified since a 110v A/C would have a NEMA 5-15 plug or some variation of it, a 220 would be a totally different connecter, most likely a twist lock plug. Given the landlords electrician cut off the plug and took it with him tells me that it's likely the landlord had him install it back whenever and he knew it wasn't right. He snatched it later as a CYA. Super-NintendoUser fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jul 3, 2014 |
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Jul 3, 2014 19:23
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Motronic posted:Yeah, that's not how electricity works. kastein posted:yeah, I have to agree with Motronic... the outlet only provides as much current as the load requires. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I knew that wasn't the cause, that was just an aside the AC guy said to me. I think he meant it that even though the AC unit is burning out and literally burning, the breaker box breaker didn't trip. If the leads hadn't separated from the circuit board, there was a good chance of more burning plastic. From what I could tell, the breaker in the plug tripped keeping my house from burning down. Looking closer, I couldn't find where he clipped the power cord, but I did find a sticker describing the plug breaker. It leads me to believe that the 220 cord was stock. Brute Squad fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jul 3, 2014 |
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Jul 3, 2014 19:44
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Breakers protect the house wiring. Full stop. Again, how would you plug a 100W lightbulb into a 15A circuit? What if you plugged something else in to another outlet on the same circuit? Do you go downstairs and swap out the breaker after doing your load calculations? Jerk McJerkface posted:I get what you mean here, but if an appliance is rated to use a 220V 30A outlet, wouldn't it make sense that in the entire circuit, not just the house wiring, but including the internal components, the weakest link would be the breaker? It wouldn't make any sense at all. What if you plugged something else into that outlet? That's what outlets are for. How do you handle this on your regular 120V 15A outlet runs? Do you sap breakers every time you plug something else in? Jerk McJerkface posted:I'm wondering that they wouldn't make an A/C with a 220V 30A plug that would use more than that much power, so the internal wiring should be ok, but in the situation the guy posted, something was wrong with the AC so it was pulling more current than the internal wiring could handle, and it melted, but the confusing thing is why it didn't trip the breaker? Because it wasn't pulling more than 30 Amps. Unless it did, the breaker will not and should not trip. This is why individual devices are expected to have the ability to "fail safe." Jerk McJerkface posted:If you connect an appliance that is designed for 110 into a 220 circuit, assuming the plug fits, which it probably wouldn't, and turned it on, you'd immediately burn up the appliance and then seconds later as the circuit resistance dropped to zero, because of all the insulation on the wiring melting off leaving a big interconnected ball of metal, the breaker would trip. The other option is the appliance melts but then instead of melting into a low resistance circuit it'd open up the circuit and the electricity would stop flowing entirely. In both situations the A/C doesn't run more than a few seconds before destroying itself and possibly tripping the breaker. Standard US domestic power is called "split phase." There are two phases that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. Grabbing one phase and the neutral gives you 120v. Grabbing two hots (one from each phase) give your 220, because as one phase peaks to it's highest the other (which is 180 degrees out of phase) is peaking to it's lowest point. So, in a 120v outlet you have a hot and a neutral. In a 200v outlet you have two hots from different phases (and possibly a neutral). If you put a 220v plug on a 120v device it may do one of several things, including work absolutely fine (most things with switching power supplies). But at worst it should "fail safe." Which usually means blowing an internal fuse or varistor. Jerk McJerkface posted:I just can't figure out a condition that would both make an A/C continuously put out smoke because of melting insulation on conductors that would not also either trip the breaker or make the A/C turn off. Because it's failing, has inadequate internal protection, and wasn't drawing more than 30A. Jerk McJerkface posted:The only possible option I can think of is that it's not really a 220V item, instead it's a 110V and instead of melting in seconds, it's working but slowly smoldering for a while. Is that possible? Possible? I suppose so. But it's so far from any realm of likelihood that it's safe to say "no way." Jerk McJerkface posted:Given the landlords electrician cut off the plug and took it with him tells me that it's likely the landlord had him install it back whenever and he knew it wasn't right. He snatched it later as a CYA. Or because the device was broken and this is the easy and sensible way to safety it. Motronic fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jul 3, 2014 |
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Jul 3, 2014 19:57
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Yeah, pretty much it was broken and he doesn't want a possibly shady landlord just dragging it to another unit and plugging it in.
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Jul 3, 2014 20:00
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Motronic posted:Breakers protect the house wiring. Full stop. Thanks for the explanation, I get how electricity works, but just not some of the nuances of applianced being designed to failsafe or 110v appliances not immediately failing when connected to 220. I just wondered how a 220V/30A AC would pull enough current to melt itself and produce smoke without tripping a breaker, and the guy clarified that it did in fact trip the breaker in the plug because it was designed to be the weakest link in the electrical circuit, like it should be.
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Jul 3, 2014 20:23
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I'll put it this way, my MIG welder plugs into a 220V 30A outlet. It will melt a hole clear through a piece of 1/4" steel plate on heat level 8 if I am not careful. 30A of 220V is a hell of a lot of power, most people don't really think about it. I could make those burns on that board with no more than 150 watts properly applied - less than 2A of 120V.
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Jul 3, 2014 20:49
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Motronic posted:Standard US domestic power is called "split phase." There are two phases that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. Grabbing one phase and the neutral gives you 120v. Grabbing two hots (one from each phase) give your 220, because as one phase peaks to it's highest the other (which is 180 degrees out of phase) is peaking to it's lowest point. I'm not too sure on using stuff that is rated for 100-250VAC on 220V US outlets, because I'm pretty sure that the electricity in parts of the world that use 220+ volts is also split-phase, not phase-phase. This of course came from something I read that said that the 220V air con socket in US motel rooms should not be regarded as a reliable source of 220V for European appliances. But I've also heard that some switchmode power supplies can deal even with phase-phase 220V. Then again that warning may have been simply because some US 220V outlets are really weird, like the plug for most electric dryers, which provides phase-phase-return, with the return also serving as the earth. Tapping one phase to return yields 120V for timers, panel lights, and possibly the motor, and of course tapping both phases yields 220V for the element. Granted, my understanding of phases is a bit shaky, but I'd still err on the side of caution when it comes to plugging random stuff into US 220V outlets, although the idea of using the whacking great 30A socket for a several-ton window air conditioner to charge up your mobile phone is pretty hysterical.
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Jul 4, 2014 01:33
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Red_October_7000 posted:I'm not too sure on using stuff that is rated for 100-250VAC on 220V US outlets, because I'm pretty sure that the electricity in parts of the world that use 220+ volts is also split-phase, not phase-phase. This of course came from something I read that said that the 220V air con socket in US motel rooms should not be regarded as a reliable source of 220V for European appliances. But I've also heard that some switchmode power supplies can deal even with phase-phase 220V. Then again that warning may have been simply because some US 220V outlets are really weird, like the plug for most electric dryers, which provides phase-phase-return, with the return also serving as the earth. Tapping one phase to return yields 120V for timers, panel lights, and possibly the motor, and of course tapping both phases yields 220V for the element. I can't find any reasonable definition on google for what phase-phase is supposed to mean, so I really can't understand the meaning of your post. I can assure you that the bulk of even the cheapest switch mode power supplies made in the last 20 years will handle anything from 100 to 240 volts at 50 to 60 Hz thrown at them however. Why? Because the only change for an increasingly global marketplace are plug spades. It'a about lower SKU count. Red_October_7000 posted:Granted, my understanding of phases is a bit shaky, but I'd still err on the side of caution when it comes to plugging random stuff into US 220V outlets, although the idea of using the whacking great 30A socket for a several-ton window air conditioner to charge up your mobile phone is pretty hysterical. That's not a problem with understanding phases, it's a problem with understanding basic electricity. If you have a legitimate concern with supplying a 1A charger on a 30A circuit you should be positively petrified that the 200A panel in your home is supplied by multi-thousand amp service. Motronic fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 01:40
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