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To be fair, with Fantasy, your dudes tend to be in single giant chunks that you can just set on the table rather than placing a hundred individual models. But rolling for spells has always been loving stupid and it Grinds My Gears that they put that into 40k.
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Jul 4, 2014 18:48
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GW has no interest in designing a game or really understanding their own game. That's why rules wander on and off the stage like drunken actors, because there is no long term plan. When they closed down their tournaments my first thought was that they had severed the possibility of any real feedback on the quality of their rules. Between that and the decision to promote the whole hobby not game stupidity, any improvements going forward are going to be the result of dumb luck or single employees fighting the tide Also, the idea that you don't know what magic a wizard in your employ does in advance springs from a recurring problem with GW, that they think that increasing randomness in the game decreases competitiveness in the player base.
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Jul 4, 2014 19:21
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Randomly rolling powers is a prime example of this. There is no reason to do this besides forging the narrative. All it does is make you either fish for powers or default to strategies surrounding the primaris powers as you know you'll get them... Or ignoring the psyker tables altogether while strategy building and instead focusing on anti psyker spam. Really really really loving sad.
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Jul 4, 2014 19:39
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What are the odds that eventually there will be some great home brew or commercial not-40k rule set that I can use with my well made citadel miniatures? The fan made kill team rules seem pretty good, so I am sure that someone can come up with rules that feel similar to 40k but are more interesting mechanically and are probably way less fiddly. I understand that no matter how good home brew rules get, it'll be difficult to establish a real player base, but I mostly play with friends so this isn't as big a deal for me.
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Jul 4, 2014 20:36
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Mantic is working on v3 of their Warpath game, but so far it doesn't look as great an improvement as Kings of War was over Warhammer Fantasy. I've seen people working on porting it to Tomorrow's War with an emphasis on bringing it in-line with the fluff, but don't know much about that. There was a crazy hold-out group that was making 2e rules for everything new - but I don't think they went much past Dark Eldar. Honestly the disconnect between the stories and the game are pretty infuriating. You read about these super-powerful men in the most advanced gear ever, but in the tabletop game they're just basic boring nobodies.
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Jul 4, 2014 20:52
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moths posted:Mantic is working on v3 of their Warpath game, but so far it doesn't look as great an improvement as Kings of War was over Warhammer Fantasy. I've seen people working on porting it to Tomorrow's War with an emphasis on bringing it in-line with the fluff, but don't know much about that. There was a crazy hold-out group that was making 2e rules for everything new - but I don't think they went much past Dark Eldar. *ahem* http://forum.manticblog.com/showthread.php?8380-Warpath-2-5-Fan-Edition Also, when v3 is released if it doesn't appeal to you then please take the time to tell Mantic as such. If there's significant feedback then Mantic will make changes.
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Jul 4, 2014 21:04
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All good points about Battletech prep vs STAR WARS. I got into gaming through Fantasy, so spending long hours looking over lists and choosing wargear doesn't bother me nearly as much as putting tokens on the board. Another part of me says that I only have to customize my mechs and put together a force once in Battletech, but I'll have to setup all the chits in STAR WARS every time I play. Battletech also lets you choose how complex the game is based on what era and tech level you're using. My friends and I tend to stick to pre-clan Inner Sphere lance fights, so that could be part of it too. But yeah, having random elements in your army is the dumbest thing ever and even as a kid I thought that was the worst part about Fantasy. I'm either going to have the most terrifying wizard ever that can completely break the game or a giant point sink that can't really do all that much. It'd be like drawing random wargear on your best ships in STAR WARS or not knowing if your mechs were coming to the fight with PPCs or machine guns.
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Jul 5, 2014 03:05
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Rulebook Heavily posted:And even if it was something that happened in Arthurian legend (no they never entered a nunnery, slaughtered all within and bathed in their blood at any point ever) that's still some hefty mental gymnastics to make it something that's cool to write today.
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Jul 5, 2014 05:51
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Come on, you got to forge that narrative! I mean, yea, there is a 1/3rd chance the upgrade you purchased for 30 points won't have any affect this battle and a 1/6th chance it will actively work against your army but narrative! But seriously, GW needs to cut that narrative forging poo poo out. Or not, i don't give a poo poo. I quit 40k and half my O&G army was 50% off and the other half was NIB 75% off. I'm glad WHFB isn't nearly as random as 40k.
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Jul 5, 2014 06:01
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Halloween Jack posted:There could be an upside to this. The Round Table was like 6% black people, can you imagine getting WH40K on board with that? Actual black people or white people with the chapter flaw that they're pitch black white people?
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Jul 5, 2014 06:07
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Two Feet From Bread posted:Come on, you got to forge that narrative! I mean, yea, there is a 1/3rd chance the upgrade you purchased for 30 points won't have any affect this battle and a 1/6th chance it will actively work against your army but narrative! Haha holy poo poo I only just realized that this must be the wargame equivalent of the DND grognard style of forging a narrative using the randomness of the dice and having it tell you what happens instead of choosing to make up a story yourself in your make-believe story game.  No wonder a certain type of person keeps coming back. moths posted:Actual black people or white people with the chapter flaw that they're pitch black white people? We nerds can't tell the difference so it's the same thing. Unless it's BBT nerdface. Then you've gone too far.
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Jul 5, 2014 06:20
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moths posted:Actual black people or white people with the chapter flaw that they're pitch black white people? Palomides is a Saracen that's usually described and characterized as black. His only real flaw is not giving up on finding the questing beast.
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Jul 5, 2014 08:45
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Chill la Chill posted:Haha holy poo poo I only just realized that this must be the wargame equivalent of the DND grognard style of forging a narrative using the randomness of the dice and having it tell you what happens instead of choosing to make up a story yourself in your make-believe story game. And, as it turns out, the kinds of people who bitch about other people's army lists are the same kinds of people who bitch about the fighter getting nice things, because that doesn't make sense! 
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Jul 6, 2014 03:47
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It's more in line with rolling up a stillborn Traveler character.
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Jul 6, 2014 05:38
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S.J. posted:And, as it turns out, the kinds of people who bitch about other people's army lists are the same kinds of people who bitch about the fighter getting nice things, because that doesn't make sense! There was a Warhammer Fantasy gaming club thing in my area that required "applications" to join, meaning I had to put in a sample army list which was then posted on their internal mailing list with justifications for my choices, which is weird as gently caress to ask for but whatever. This was the older Wood Elves book, close to a year ago. I made three of the players super mad because I "metagamed" my list by giving some characters ward saves against flaming attacks on the basis that people would bring flaming attacks against my army a lot. I was "playing the players, not the game" and they collectively threatened to flip their poo poo if I was allowed in. A year later, they have flipped their poo poo over some other insane thing and the club has exploded and scattered. So that's how my Wood Elves defeated an entire gaming club without being allowed to actually play. How's this relevant to GW? Well, their entire strategy is to form little clubs like this now. It may not seem like it is, but it is. No tournament standards mean less overarching meta, less "standard" play, more inane house rules/dataslates someone bought this week and stupid "special requirements." More little insular cliques of buddies, less support of f.e. my FLGS which hosts mini-tournaments and painting lessons every single week to support its warhammer players and gets slapped across the face by GW on the retail front for it. It's only fortunate that there are some large-ish fan tourneys going on that have ANY kind of standard a player can cling to. If GW cared about building a dedicated long-term playerbase, this strategy might work out for them for a while. But we know they're not.
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Jul 6, 2014 13:08
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Please cross post that story (with more details!) to the catpiss thread, it sounds  as hell.
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Jul 6, 2014 13:22
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Rulebook Heavily posted:So that's how my Wood Elves defeated an entire gaming club without being allowed to actually play. Of all the complaints to level against GW, nerds being horrible people is a pretty minor one.
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Jul 6, 2014 14:15
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I'm just really glad the NOVA open is around to play games in if I should ever finish painting my anime robots. They have sensible tournament/army comp rules as I recall. If only they hosted it in the middle of summer and not when school starts.
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Jul 6, 2014 15:49
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LordAba posted:Of all the complaints to level against GW, nerds being horrible people is a pretty minor one. Oh absolutely. It's just worrying to me how GW doesn't want to build its community and thus sets no standard of fair play or community for their customers. Laugh as we might at the old Warmachine page five rant about playing with your balls, but that one page helped shape their community - and the community shaped it back and suggested amendments. They actively work towards managing who their customers are and what standards are acceptable. We are so used to the old "don't play with bad people" standard of being responsible for our own community standards. The fact is though that a good company will actively foster a good community as a matter of business. It's good practice. And GW has abandoned this.
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Jul 6, 2014 16:42
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Laugh as we might at the old Warmachine page five rant about playing with your balls I'm glad I googled that, because my first thought was that it was Warmachine's "MtG BO" problem, a standard of etiquette they had to publish because too many gamers were playing with their junk during games. What does it say when that was my first assumption
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Jul 6, 2014 16:52
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Oh absolutely. It's just worrying to me how GW doesn't want to build its community and thus sets no standard of fair play or community for their customers. Laugh as we might at the old Warmachine page five rant about playing with your balls, but that one page helped shape their community - and the community shaped it back and suggested amendments. They actively work towards managing who their customers are and what standards are acceptable. I think it keeps coming down to the whole "we're a hobby company, not a game company" thing. They have decided to whittle down their core competencies to "We make plastic figures that people play games with", and THAT'S IT, so they have an excuse not to pay attention to any of the companies that are trying to make functional games that people enjoy playing. But maybe it is that it is an excuse. Like, they're not saying this because they want to really put all their resources in making the best and awesomest plastic minifigs and spaceships on the market, they're saying this so they can not spend money on rules design or supporting organized play.
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Jul 6, 2014 17:19
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Didn't Privateer end up removing the page five thing?
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Jul 6, 2014 17:42
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PresidentBeard posted:Didn't Privateer end up removing the page five thing? It's still in the most recent book, but it's a much more toned down version of it, and unlike when the company first started it is referenced absolutely nowhere outside of that physical page. I would not be at all surprised to see 'play like you got a pair' to disappear completely from their next rulebook.
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Jul 6, 2014 18:02
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PresidentBeard posted:Didn't Privateer end up removing the page five thing? They did, because people took it to mean "Win at any cost, including being a massive douchebag to the other player or by withholding information or lying to them". Also, the local scene for WMH is abjectly terrible, some of the worst people I've ever had the misfortune of playing a game with. The local groups are only as good as the Pressgangers that run them, and the ones here are not great, so you end with a pretty toxic community outside of a small number of players. I remember the first (and last) tournament a few of our club went to when we were making a foray into WMH. Was set up specifically as a new player tournament, no one playing for over a year could attend and compete. One of our players brought a warcaster that, apparently, was considered kinda overpowered/cheap for the format we were playing. Proceed for event organizer pressganger to tell the assembled crowd of players that he won the "douchebag award" for taking the caster, etc., when he won the event. Made the guy clearly uncomfortable and he obviously had no idea, we'd only been playing a couple months together, and had never seen anyone else that was there for the event. Then in the thread about the event, the pressganger again called him out for using the character. Yeah, shockingly, our entire group quit playing WMH after that.
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Jul 6, 2014 18:02
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I thought it was taken out around the same time they started toning down the tits and such on their female models. Though a super toxic community would seem to be another totally justified reason. My warmahordes community is pretty decent but then it's all out of one game store run by a pretty chill person.
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Jul 6, 2014 18:05
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S.J. posted:It's still in the most recent book, but it's a much more toned down version of it, and unlike when the company first started it is referenced absolutely nowhere outside of that physical page. I would not be at all surprised to see 'play like you got a pair' to disappear completely from their next rulebook. Right, Privateer has/had to learn some lessons in that and how they approach their pressganger program. Harsh ones at that.
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Jul 6, 2014 18:14
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Right, Privateer has to learn some lessons in that and how they approach their pressganger program. Harsh ones at that. I'm not sure what you mean? 'Play like you got a pair' basically doesn't exist anymore outside of the fact that they're not going to stop printing the rulebook any time soon, and for the most part I feel like the Press Ganger program is pretty well handled, but maybe you have more info on that than I do? I'd like to hear if you do. e: nvm, saw your edit, makes more sense now
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Jul 6, 2014 18:16
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Two Feet From Bread posted:I'm glad WHFB isn't nearly as random as 40k. It's been steadily devolving though. I played WHFB back during 6th edition, and while it had its share of problems, it was far less random than now. Rolling D6s to resolve charging makes me every time I think about it. And christ, the magic phase was wonky when I played, making it even more random with lots of insta-nuke-a-unit spells was exactly the opposite direction they needed.
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Jul 7, 2014 00:32
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Right, Privateer has/had to learn some lessons in that and how they approach their pressganger program. Harsh ones at that. I want to hear more about this. Also more GW rumour and dirt. I love gossip.
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Jul 7, 2014 04:28
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Right, Privateer has/had to learn some lessons in that and how they approach their pressganger program. Harsh ones at that. Actually learning lessons (and on a non-geologic number of business cycles) puts you ahead of the competition when it comes to game companies. I'm not even specifically slagging on GW here.
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Jul 7, 2014 04:39
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April 19 2015 TBH I think 2016/2017 is more likely, but you put 2015 as the max so...
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Jul 17, 2014 22:44
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Does anyone remember when the shareholder's report is due? I think someone mentioned late July - should be fun. The previous half-year report was released on 16th of jan. fakedit: The last three years have been 30th (a tuesday), 31st (a tuesday) and 26th July (also a tuesday). Looks like the last tuesday of the month is usual, making this years' due on the 29th. 
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Jul 18, 2014 11:18
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Crackbone posted:It's been steadily devolving though. I played WHFB back during 6th edition, and while it had its share of problems, it was far less random than now. Rolling D6s to resolve charging makes me It's almost like they arbitrarily change the rules just to sell more rulebooks and miniatures? I think I realised this when my heavily converted 40k chaos army was made nearly entirely unusable when the codex changed from 2nd to 3rd edition. Yes thanks, we are the company who made your 2 year investment of time and money completely worthless, please just throw those old models away.
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Jul 21, 2014 11:17
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Washout posted:I think I realised this when my heavily converted 40k chaos army was made nearly entirely unusable when the codex changed from 2nd to 3rd edition. Imagine of you'd stuck around for when they split your demons and CSM into two $50 hardcovers. That's what got me.
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Jul 21, 2014 11:28
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moths posted:Imagine of you'd stuck around for when they split your demons and CSM into two $50 hardcovers. The part that really stuck in my craw was the fanboyism. I tried to convince my "friends" to let me keep using my old models with some house rules, nope... Like literally the week before I had painted up a thunder hammer/lightning claw khorne squad in a land raider that was now useless and there was no mercy, just whelp theres 150 bucks down the drain too bad. Washout fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 12:01
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moths posted:Imagine of you'd stuck around for when they split your demons and CSM into two $50 hardcovers. 
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Jul 21, 2014 12:39
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Washout posted:The part that really stuck in my craw was the fanboyism. I tried to convince my "friends" to let me keep using my old models with some house rules, nope... Like literally the week before I had painted up a thunder hammer/lightning claw khorne squad in a land raider that was now useless and there was no mercy, just whelp theres 150 bucks down the drain too bad. 40k fans are REALLY loving weird about this. As soon as a new book comes out it is 100% gospel and there is zero chance you will be able to use the old rules. There's this weird cultish, 'whatever GW has released recently is law!' mentality. To even suggest sticking with an old format just gets you weird looks, even if its widely agreed that the old rules were better/more fun. When my own Space Marine / Tau army was invalidated by 7th edition and I posted how this annoyed me in the 40k thread, the ovewhelming response was that it was my fault and I should just deal with having devoted tons of time and effort into an army that no longer works. What I'm trying to say is most 40k fans are loving terrible.
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Jul 21, 2014 13:05
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The response was actually 'You can still play it as unbound' and then you threw a multiple page poo poo fit.
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Jul 21, 2014 13:20
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Moola posted:40k fans are REALLY loving weird about this.
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Jul 21, 2014 14:36
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Chill la Chill posted:Doubly weird is that in my experience these are the same people who like to fall back to the "beer and pretzels" excuse when it comes time to figure out what the rules actually say. Read: "It's OK to change the rules, as long as my opponent isn't getting some kind of leg-up or advantage".
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Jul 21, 2014 14:47
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