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America Inc.
Nov 22, 2013

I plan to live forever, of course, but barring that I'd settle for a couple thousand years. Even 500 would be pretty nice.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

I'm not sure this particular harmful scientific monster has appeared in this thread, so I present to you, the ADD-causing, cancer-inducing, kid-hating phenomenon: :ghost: wifi in schools! :siren:


Anyone with any familiarity with the issue want to comment? On the surface it seems ludicrous to connect non-ionizing radiation to cancer, and it seems that even the research they are bringing up mostly has to do with pregnancy, not childhood, but I'm just a physicist in training.
From the Illuminati/BIG WAVE front American Family Physician:

quote:

Prenatal exposure to low-frequency electromagnetic fields has been of particular concern because of pooled epidemiologic evidence showing an association with childhood leukemia.9 Studies have not consistently found a causal link between prenatal exposure to electromagnetic fields and birth defects, miscarriage, or childhood leukemia.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/2010/0901/p488.html
So this Carpenter guy talking about "confirming" anything is full of poo poo.

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Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

Rent-A-Cop posted:

These people are idiots and probably don't realize they have likely spent their entire lives within a few miles of at least one transmitter that is millions of times more powerful than any wifi.

The only moral radio frequency is my radio frequency!

Technogeek
Sep 9, 2002

by FactsAreUseless
The article Absurd Alhazred posted also has a very major factual error in it:

quote:

The International Agency for Research on Cancer of the World Health Organization officially classifies Wi-Fi radiation as a “possible carcinogen.” Carpenter explains that means Wi-Fi gets a three on a one-to-five scale. “Known is the strongest, then probable, then possible, then not, and finally unclassifiable.” Other IARC possible carcinogens include asbestos, lead, paint, and DDT.

Asbestos isn't in the third group (technically called group 2B, but whatever, that's not the point). It's in the first group. The "we know this is in fact carcinogenic for humans" group. (Paint is probably in group 1 as well, at least insofar as "painter, occupational exposure as" is a group 1 exposure circumstance.)

Killer robot
Sep 6, 2010

I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!
Pillbug

Technogeek posted:

The article Absurd Alhazred posted also has a very major factual error in it:


Asbestos isn't in the third group (technically called group 2B, but whatever, that's not the point). It's in the first group. The "we know this is in fact carcinogenic for humans" group. (Paint is probably in group 1 as well, at least insofar as "painter, occupational exposure as" is a group 1 exposure circumstance.)

Never mind that lead is primarily dangerous because of direct poisoning with cancer a distant secondary possibility, and human toxicity wasn't the problem with DDT at all.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
The fear of WiFi couldn't sustain me long, so I think it's time to go back to :siren:Monsanto:siren:. From an OP in Aljazeera:

quote:

A recent US Department of Agriculture study of the first 15 years of US experience with transgenic crops concluded that the technology had produced only limited and uneven yield improvements over conventional hybrid varieties of maize. The main benefit, when there was one, came in the reduced need for labour, since insect-resistant transgenic maize reduces pesticide applications and herbicide-tolerant varieties reduce manual weeding by allowing the liberal spraying of entire fields with Monsanto's Round-Up weed-killer.
Nothing misleading here. I mean, it's not like one could easily check that the summary of the study is saying anything different:

quote:

The adoption of Bt crops increases yields by mitigating yield losses from insects. However, empirical evidence regarding the effect of HT crops on yields is mixed. Generally, stacked seeds (seeds with more than one GE trait) tend to have higher yields than conventional seeds or than seeds with only one GE trait. GE corn with stacked traits grew from 1 percent of corn acres in 2000 to 71 percent in 2013. Stacked seed varieties also accounted for 67 percent of cotton acres in 2013.

Planting Bt cotton and Bt corn seed is associated with higher net returns when pest pressure is high. The extent to which HT adoption affects net returns is mixed and depends primarily on how much weed control costs are reduced and seed costs are increased. HT soybean adoption is associated with an increase in total household income because HT soybeans require less management and enable farmers to generate income via off-farm activities or by expanding their operations.

Farmers generally use less insecticide when they plant Bt corn and Bt cotton. Corn insecticide use by both GE seed adopters and nonadopters has decreased—only 9 percent of all U.S. corn farmers used insecticides in 2010. Insecticide use on corn farms declined from 0.21 pound per planted acre in 1995 to 0.02 pound in 2010. This is consistent with the steady decline in European corn borer populations over the last decade that has been shown to be a direct result of Bt adoption. The establishment of minimum refuge requirements (planting sufficient acres of the non-Bt crop near the Bt crop) has helped delay the evolution of Bt resistance. However, there are some indications that insect resistance is developing to some Bt traits in some areas.

The adoption of HT crops has enabled farmers to substitute glyphosate for more toxic and persistent herbicides. However, an overreliance on glyphosate and a reduction in the diversity of weed management practices adopted by crop producers have contributed to the evolution of glyphosate resistance in 14 weed species and biotypes in the United States. Best management practices (BMPs) to control weeds may help delay the evolution of resistance and sustain the efficacy of HT crops. BMPs include applying multiple herbicides with different modes of action, rotating crops, planting weed-free seed, scouting fields routinely, cleaning equipment to reduce the transmission of weeds to other fields, and maintaining field borders.

Nope, reduction of labor is the only clear advantage. :rolleyes:

Another amusing and telling tidbit from the OP:

quote:

I asked Monsanto officials whether their goal was just to open up yellow maize markets in Mexico to transgenics. It made no sense to me. The seed provider already has the Mexican market for yellow maize seeds; 90 percent of US maize is in GM seeds, and that is the source for Mexico's imports of yellow maize. Monsanto's seed market won't get bigger because some of the seeds get planted in Mexico.

The response was surprisingly clear.

"In order for the penetration of biotechnology crops to be successful, it will have to be for both white and yellow corn," said Jaime Mijares Noriega, the company's Latin America Director for Corporate Affairs. "If it was only yellow, we would not be investing."

I was shocked. Why would company officials, in the middle of a lawsuit, state so openly that their goal is to put transgenic maize into Mexican tortillas?
It's as if they don't think that Mexicans share his anti-GMO hysteria! Insane!

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
It's been more than a month before I've posted GMO bullshit! Can't have that!


quote:

GMO Inside has partnered on releasing the film Unacceptable Levels! Your purchase helps us continue our work! http://ykr.be/24b4k9a6x Ed Brown presents, Unacceptable Levels a story of how the chemical revolution brought us to where we are, and where, if we’re not vigilant, it may take us. This film poses challenges to our companies, our government, and our society to do something about a nearly-unseen threat with the inspired knowledge that small changes can generate a massive impact. Buy or rent a copy here: http://ykr.be/24b4k9a6x ‪#‎food‬ ‪#‎chemical‬ ‪#‎contamination‬

A comment posted this other pile of misinformation:

SniHjen
Oct 22, 2010

Noteable foods missing from that list: bananas, cows, goats.

Oh? I guess that artificial selection doesn't count as modifying our food to our need.

Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles

SniHjen posted:

Noteable foods missing from that list: bananas, cows, goats.

Oh? I guess that artificial selection doesn't count as modifying our food to our need.

Unless I missed a news item about trees genetically engineered to grow boobs, cows and goats are (implicitly, at least) on that list.

Sidenote: I need to apply for a boob tree patent before the Devil Monsanto steals my seed

A big flaming stink
Apr 26, 2010
not to dredge up the slapfight from a few pages ago, but i was kinda struck by how hard booty shorts was pushing for "fruits and veggies". Aren't fruits not actually that healthy? I mean i know they are fibrous but it was my understanding that most fruits are just balls of sugar.

Also are potatos considered vegetables or are they more along the staple-crop style of things?

white sauce
Apr 29, 2012

by R. Guyovich

A big flaming stink posted:

not to dredge up the slapfight from a few pages ago, but i was kinda struck by how hard booty shorts was pushing for "fruits and veggies". Aren't fruits not actually that healthy? I mean i know they are fibrous but it was my understanding that most fruits are just balls of sugar.

Also are potatos considered vegetables or are they more along the staple-crop style of things?

what do you think we should do about obesity? Let me know if you think the way the food system works currently is a-ok. I'm not advocating any kind or manner of diet, just that we have to start doing something about obese people in the planet by simply doing things like removing insane subsidies on meat products.

white sauce fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Jul 2, 2014

A big flaming stink
Apr 26, 2010

Tight Booty Shorts posted:

what do you think we should do about obesity? Let me know if you think the way the food system works currently is a-ok.

reduce the burden on the working poor and improve access to education to those in poverty. improve public transportation in under served areas. raise the minimum wage. maybe subsidize some grocery stores in food deserts.

this is assuming you are referring to obesity in america. worldwide is outside my knowledge

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006

by the sex ghost

Tight Booty Shorts posted:

what do you think we should do about obesity? Let me know if you think the way the food system works currently is a-ok. I'm not advocating any kind or manner of diet, just that we have to start doing something about obese people in the planet by simply doing things like removing insane subsidies on meat products.

And the link to GMOs again is?

down with slavery
Dec 23, 2013
STOP QUOTING MY POSTS SO PEOPLE THAT AREN'T IDIOTS DON'T HAVE TO READ MY FUCKING TERRIBLE OPINIONS THANKS

Solkanar512 posted:

And the link to GMOs again is?

In your head, imagined as usual.

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006

by the sex ghost

down with slavery posted:

In your head, imagined as usual.

I'm not making that claim shithead, I'm asking why a completely different topic is being discussed in this thread. Did you notice the question mark?

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

Solkanar512 posted:

And the link to GMOs again is?

People eat more food when it is cheap and plentiful, therefore ban GMOs.

peter banana
Sep 2, 2008

Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

A big flaming stink posted:

not to dredge up the slapfight from a few pages ago, but i was kinda struck by how hard booty shorts was pushing for "fruits and veggies". Aren't fruits not actually that healthy? I mean i know they are fibrous but it was my understanding that most fruits are just balls of sugar.

Also are potatos considered vegetables or are they more along the staple-crop style of things?

Consumption of fruit is very healthy in it's natural form. Yes it is sugar, but it's sugar alongside fiber, some protein and essential vitamins. Take the sugar out of the fruit and its good contents and superconcentrate it like HFCS, then yes "fructose" is "bad." People can live entirely on raw fruit, although it is difficult given our industrial agriculture system and many people living in areas where nutritious fruit doesn't grow naturally.

Did you hear fruit was unhealthy from some paleo-low carb source by any chance?

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP
I've found that the only health statement you should believe without further research is "soda is bad".

asdf32
May 15, 2010

I lust for childrens' deaths. Ask me about how I don't care if my kids die.

peter banana posted:

Consumption of fruit is very healthy in it's natural form. Yes it is sugar, but it's sugar alongside fiber, some protein and essential vitamins. Take the sugar out of the fruit and its good contents and superconcentrate it like HFCS, then yes "fructose" is "bad." People can live entirely on raw fruit, although it is difficult given our industrial agriculture system and many people living in areas where nutritious fruit doesn't grow naturally.

Did you hear fruit was unhealthy from some paleo-low carb source by any chance?

Paleo doesn't have any problems with fruit.

Low carb diets do.

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

peter banana posted:

Consumption of fruit is very healthy in it's natural form. Yes it is sugar, but it's sugar alongside fiber, some protein and essential vitamins. Take the sugar out of the fruit and its good contents and superconcentrate it like HFCS, then yes "fructose" is "bad."

No it's not "very healthy" in that form, it's simply a normal food. Also no, fructose does not become bad, and HFCS is absolutely not superconcentrated.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
How dare I argue with experts! Under a friend's Facebook post (I'm Anderer; Phil Anderer):




Jazerus
May 24, 2011


Tight Booty Shorts posted:

what do you think we should do about obesity? Let me know if you think the way the food system works currently is a-ok. I'm not advocating any kind or manner of diet, just that we have to start doing something about obese people in the planet by simply doing things like removing insane subsidies on meat products.

You are focusing on the wrong aspect of the rise in obesity. Obesity is mostly a problem of the poor because cheap and easy food generally is a big rush of quickly-released carbohydrate calories that are mostly converted into fat. The diets of the middle class and above are generally much more balanced and contain more slowly-processed calorie sources, allowing for a much more balanced equilibrium of energy usage and energy production - to put it simply, anyway. Meat subsidies are not insane at all, since fresh meat is certainly healthier than the sugar-laden stuff on the shelves. Averting poverty produces less obesity because healthier foods are within the reach of more people.

Eventually meat production as we know it will be unsustainable, at least at global population peak, barring the sorts of technological advances that have averted all of the other projected Malthusian crises, but that has little bearing on obesity right now.

I don't mean to be offensive but I'm not sure you realize how much you do not know about this subject based on your posts so far. Your enthusiasm for solving food problems in the world is great and more effort on that front is going to be necessary in the future, but you should be guided by a solid understanding of metabolism, on both the cell and organism levels, as well as the economics and sociology required to analyze why the diet of a particular population is deficient in whatever manner. It usually boils down to logistics and poverty. Combating scientific ignorance is in the title of the thread for a reason, we should try not to be part of the problem.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Absurd Alhazred posted:

How dare I argue with experts! Under a friend's Facebook post (I'm Anderer; Phil Anderer):

You have a lot more patience than me. I would have also gone the "compare with Kosher" route, though I think that after a while you should have just limited your posts to a demand that someone explain the difference; if you say too much stuff it makes it too easy for people to pick and choose what they want to respond to and ignore everything else.

white sauce
Apr 29, 2012

by R. Guyovich

Jazerus posted:

You are focusing on the wrong aspect of the rise in obesity. Obesity is mostly a problem of the poor because cheap and easy food generally is a big rush of quickly-released carbohydrate calories that are mostly converted into fat. The diets of the middle class and above are generally much more balanced and contain more slowly-processed calorie sources, allowing for a much more balanced equilibrium of energy usage and energy production - to put it simply, anyway. Meat subsidies are not insane at all, since fresh meat is certainly healthier than the sugar-laden stuff on the shelves. Averting poverty produces less obesity because healthier foods are within the reach of more people.

Eventually meat production as we know it will be unsustainable, at least at global population peak, barring the sorts of technological advances that have averted all of the other projected Malthusian crises, but that has little bearing on obesity right now.

I don't mean to be offensive but I'm not sure you realize how much you do not know about this subject based on your posts so far. Your enthusiasm for solving food problems in the world is great and more effort on that front is going to be necessary in the future, but you should be guided by a solid understanding of metabolism, on both the cell and organism levels, as well as the economics and sociology required to analyze why the diet of a particular population is deficient in whatever manner. It usually boils down to logistics and poverty. Combating scientific ignorance is in the title of the thread for a reason, we should try not to be part of the problem.

Yes, poverty is the main reason why people can't afford a good diet or even know what a good diet should be. I don't like this patronizing tone you have with me. The reason why I mentioned meat subsidies was because we are consuming too much of it at too high an environmental cost. I think meat production is already unsustainable, btw.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Ytlaya posted:

You have a lot more patience than me. I would have also gone the "compare with Kosher" route, though I think that after a while you should have just limited your posts to a demand that someone explain the difference; if you say too much stuff it makes it too easy for people to pick and choose what they want to respond to and ignore everything else.

I seriously need to fight my urge to ramble and just open myself to attack like this, you're absolutely right. I think I'll stick to "what would be a sufficient testing regime; why is the current regime deficient" and "why is GMO free different from Kosher", depending on which of the two arguments is pursued.

ETA:
Speaking of rambling, a very long argument in defense of Monsanto, linked from another discussion:

The New Yorker posted:

Why the Climate Corporation Sold Itself to Monsanto

For this week’s issue of the magazine, I wrote about the Climate Corporation, a company that is trying to deploy a vast and growing trove of data to help farmers cope with the increasingly severe fluctuations in weather caused by climate change, in much the way that Google organizes and presents the world’s information. The New York Times, citing a forthcoming report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, also noted this weekend that warming trends will pose an increased risk to the world’s food supply in the coming decades.

While I was reporting the piece, David Friedberg, the Climate Corporation’s thirty-three-year-old chief executive, told me that Monsanto had agreed to purchase the company for about a billion dollars. The deal was finalized last week. The Climate Corporation, which has nearly two hundred scientists trying to make sense of fifty terabytes of weather data every day, will continue to operate as an independent unit, but I was surprised at Friedberg’s decision, because many food activists consider Monsanto to be the definitively evil corporation. Friedberg was not prepared for the response from his family, friends, and colleagues. (“When I shared the news with my dad recently, his first reaction was, ‘Monsanto? The most evil company in the world? I thought you were trying to make the world a BETTER place?’”)

Friedberg is deeply methodical; his research led him to believe that the common view of Monsanto was simply wrong. He wrote a letter to everyone who works for the Climate Corporation explaining the decision, and he has agreed to let me post it here. It is frank and explicit: “I am not the kind of person that would take easily to partnering with a company that ‘poisons the world’s food system,’ lays waste to the land, puts farmers out of business, or creates a monoculture that threatens the global food supply,” he writes.

It is not possible to assert publicly that Monsanto is anything other than venal without being accused of being a sellout, a fraud, or worse. If Friedberg doesn’t know that, he will soon learn, as I did many years ago. No matter what you think you know about Monsanto, Friedberg’s letter is worth reading. He is an ambitious man and his goals are not minor: “The people of The Climate Corporation are going to lead the world to revolutionary solutions to historic problems,” he writes. I have no idea if he will succeed, but for the sake of us all, I certainly hope so.

He sent me the following version of his letter:

David Friedberg posted:

Folks:

I understand there are a lot of questions emerging about the Monsanto partnership. I’m certain a number of you have been feeling assaulted by friends and family about “joining up with Monsanto” and that you feel ill-equipped to respond to claims and accusations made about the company.

For some of us, this is a very difficult time. I understand and want to try and address concerns head-on and make sure everyone feels like they have the appropriate context and information needed to feel informed, comfortable, and hopefully, excited about the unique opportunity in front of us.

When I shared the news with my dad recently, his first reaction was “Monsanto?! The most evil company in the world?! I thought you were trying to make the world a BETTER place?” Now, my Dad has a bit of a dramatic flare (might be where I get it from), generally tends towards reading “liberal” blogs as his primary news source, and likes to quickly jump to big hefty conclusions, but I was not prepared for the sort of reaction I got from him. In fact, it hurt to hear this from my close family—especially after all of the work needed to get to this point and with so much excitement about what was ahead; to be chastised for this exciting decision was really really hard. So, I started sending my dad information, talked to him at length about GMOs, the history and business practices of Monsanto, and the future we could now enable, and, ultimately, he understood my perspective. In fact, he actually started sharing my enthusiasm, telling some of his friends over the past few days how they have it all wrong. It definitely took me a while to get him to that point—I had many months of research behind me to prepare for those conversations and the conversations themselves were lengthy and detailed.

Now I know a lot of you don’t yet feel that well informed, making it very difficult for YOU to respond to the family member or recruiter that emails you with the awful subject line “Do you REALLY want to work at the MOST EVIL COMPANY IN THE WORLD??!!”.

Like I said the other night when we announced the news, I too knew very little about Monsanto when we first met with them. I knew they were a big agribusiness and had some reputation issues, which followed my reading of various websites and blogs. As I dug in, it all changed for me. And I found myself shifting from saying we’d never sell our company to being more excited than I’ve ever been about the impact possible through our work.

In 2004, I was working at Google when we announced Gmail. At the time, it was an extraordinary revolution—1GB of free email! Prior to that, I think you had to pay lots of money for anything 10MB or more. To make this service free, Google used its automated advertising system (AdSense) to identify keywords from the content in an email and provide keyword-triggered ads on the right side of the page. There was outrage over this “evil” technology (see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/03/google_mail_is_evil_privacy/). In addition to “reading your emails”, Google was accused of storing all your email for the Federal government to read, and Google now CONTROLED ALL YOUR INFORMATION. This blossomed into a nuclear mushroom cloud of evil-calling. A silent sadness fell over everyone for creating something they never thought of as “evil”—they were creating a great free product for the world that could make email as accessible as web browsing, helping billions of people around the world communicate more easily with one another. Over time, as the benefits of the service were better understood, the pundits learned about the complicated technology that enabled Gmail and its advertising system, and more people fell in love with its utility, the noise died down.

Calling a company evil is easy. And if you do it enough times it can become the “reality”—because reality is just the most common perception. Say something enough times and everyone thinks it’s the truth.

Generally, things that are big or revolutionary are the easiest targets. I think this is because, ultimately, people can feel out of control in the face of very new and very big things. This is especially true for new technologies delivered on a large scale. As Arthur C. Clarke commented “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Meaning it can’t really be understood at first. Done at scale, something that can’t really be understood can be very scary. And the reaction is to call it evil. And find reasons to frame it as evil.

For a long time, Google was evil. Sometimes, Apple is evil. Sometimes, Microsoft is evil. Over the course of history, both Republicans and Democrats have been labeled evil by the populous. Nowadays, Monsanto is frequently labeled as evil. As has been the case throughout history, with new and revolutionary science, Monsanto has delivered hugely impactful technology and people don’t understand the science, see it working at scale, and don’t mind it being labeled as evil. And so, a mushroom cloud of evil sentiment has emerged.

From Galileo to Servetus to Mendel to Einstein. Revolutionary science has always incited visceral hatred on a mass scale. Galileo told us that the Bible was wrong and he was chastised for denying the word of God. Mendel was engaged in the devil’s work. And Einstein “invented a weapon that killed millions” because of his original theories of physics.

It’s a lot easier for a reaction to something new to turn into repeated statements of evil, supported by anecdote and innuendo, and eventually turn into a meme, ultimately becoming the commonplace perception. Melissa McEwen is a blogger who writes about sustainable agriculture and healthy eating. She recently penned an article titled “Just Kale Me: How your Kale habit is slowly destroying your health and the world”. She chastised Kale (a very healthy vegetable) as being deadly (http://huntgatherlove.com/content/just-kale-me-how-your-kale-habit-slowly-destroying-your-health-and-world). She used innuendo, extrapolation, unscientific references, out-of-context facts and statements to make her point. Her “fake” article spread like wildfire and for about a day was considered “truth” by many “healthy living” bloggers and readers alike. The very next day, she edited the article and admitted to the truth—she was trying to make a point that it is so easy to demonize something without clear logic and fact, and still get everyone to believe you and repeat the bottom line. Her declaration was that when you read “an article that demonizes a food, think about whether or not there are citations and follow those citations”. Her article struck me as very poignant, in light of all the GMO research I had been doing in the prior weeks. There are so many articles (some are repeatedly published) that are wholly inaccurate, based in half-science, extrapolation, innuendo, and out-of-context rhetoric. When I did my own research—to the source and in the science—I was amazed at how far these inaccurate statements had gone and how wrong so many people were, thinking they were right because they repeated the same things others did.

Perhaps Monsanto should have adopted the mantra that Paul Bucheit so cleverly and timely introduced at Google in 2000—“don’t be evil”. Just saying that was their mantra has helped Google countless times avoid the evil designation that so many people have tried to hurl their way over the years. It has worked.

Did you know: Google sues more of its customers each year than Monsanto does? Google spends 3 times as much as Monsanto on Federal lobbying? There are more ex-Googlers in the Obama administration than there are ex-Monsanto employees?

I could go on. But a lot of the “bad things” being said about Monsanto are simple truths about the nature of doing business at scale. On the list of top lobbyists on payroll in DC, Monsanto is not even in the top 50. The “Monsanto Protection Act” is actually called the “Farmer Assurance Provision” and was drafted and written by a number of farm groups, including the American Farm Bureau Federation, American Soybean Association, National Corn Growers, and others, to help ensure farmers aren’t denied the right to grow crops that are approved and regulated by the Federal agencies, protecting them from emerging state propositions that aren’t based on science or research.

It seems to me that innuendo, anecdotal evidence, and out of context facts are used to support a simple statement—“the company is evil”—and are rooted in a lack of understanding and fear of the unknown.

In high school I started and was the President of the environmental club—we named it “Students H.O.P.E. (Students Healing Our Planet Earth)”. We ran campaigns, attended rallies, cleaned the beach, organized Earth Day events, and we even had our own green t-shirt that my friend designed.

I am also a vegetarian. I’ve never eaten chicken, fish, or meat in my life. My parents are pseudo-hippies and always taught me that we should try and avoid harming the world and do as much good as possible. Since I was very young, I’ve tried my best. When the first Toyota Prius came out in 2003, I ordered it months before I could even test drive the car. At home, I compost, recycle, and avoid bottled water.

I am not the kind of person that would take easily to partnering with a company that “poison’s the world’s food system”, lays waste to the land, puts farmers out of business, or creates a monoculture that threatens the global food supply. I make decisions as a scientist. Since I was a kid, I’ve loved science, and believe that truth in the world comes from science. So, I have allowed myself to be informed by science and fact as I have explored this partnership opportunity for The Climate Corporation.

Humans have genetically engineered seeds for 11,000 years, primarily through seed breeding, where we “got rid of” the traits we didn’t want and introduced the traits we did. Modern advancements in science have allowed for those genetic advances to be much more organized and specific, rather than haphazard, over time. The notion of introducing specific genes into specific places to create a protein that did not evolve through a natural process has been a breakthrough—one that is hard to understand and comprehend, but powerful in its implications. And through science, we can study the efficacy and risks of this technology. I have read the science—it was not a short and easy effort. And I think Monsanto has created amazing and safe technology. It took me a while to get there. You should take your time, learn about their science, and I’m certain you will get you there too.

As for the history of their company, their business practices, and their future, I suggest you take your time to fully understand these matters—they are not simple and can’t be summarized in a simple sentence or two.

The Monsanto of today is a conglomerate of seed companies that were acquired in the 1990s and 2000s, bundled together, and spun out as a separate company. This new agriculture company was formed to incorporate new science and technology in the development of seed, providing farmers with the ability to create more food with less land, water, and chemicals than had been previously possible.

Monsanto executives debated a new name for that new company, and determined it would cost them $40 million to develop a new brand. They decided to save the money and, in my opinion, made the biggest mistake they ever made. The old Monsanto chemical business would be renamed Pharmacia and was sold to Pfizer and the new seed company would be named Monsanto and spun out as a “new Monsanto”, to this day tarnished by legacy products of an entirely different chemicals business (now owned by Pfizer).

Now, there are some other really important tactical questions that I want to answer directly about our future as “part of Monsanto”. We are going to continue to operate and exist as The Climate Corporation, as an independently run business, owned by Monsanto. We had 100+ shareholders, now we have 1. We used to have a Board, now we don’t. We are not going to be “integrated” into Monsanto. We will not be forcibly “integrated” into IFS or FieldScripts or any of those other products/groups. (We may, at some point, choose on our own to propose some partnerships with other groups at Monsanto). No one will “work for Monsanto”—everyone still works for The Climate Corporation, with the same roles, titles, and responsibilities as you do today. Monsanto does not “set our policy”—what we do, how we operate, and our culture are still our decisions. I am a member of the executive committee at Monsanto, so I can help lobby for resources and data that we may want.

If at any point, you aren’t doing work that you’re passionate about, or we’re operating in a way that doesn’t meet your model or standards, then you can very simply walk away. It is my job to make sure that doesn’t happen. It is my job to keep our culture intact, our team happy, and our work exciting and impactful. I wouldn’t do this if that weren’t the plan.

When the Monsanto team first showed up here, they said “what you have here is really extraordinary; we could really mess this up,” which is exactly why they’ve agreed to let us run independently. They made it really clear that THEY WANT TO LEARN FROM US.

We have an opportunity to be a model for the broader Monsanto organization about how we operate. Our DNA is what makes us who we are, and it might frame for the bigger Monsanto who they want to be in the future. Let’s take advantage of that—the biggest agribusiness in the world can now be modeled by us. That is why this opportunity is so exciting. There is no bigger platform to impact the world. Our work can dramatically change how most people do what they do, to survive and thrive.

I will ensure we get the resources we need to exceed our wildest aspirations—from developing our own satellite and radar systems to opening new engineering offices to launching in new markets. We should aim to be aggressive, impactful, and revolutionary in our science.

Now, none of your questions or concerns will feel fully addressed in 24 hours, and maybe not even for a few weeks. This is going to be a learning process (you don’t learn an entire subject on the first day of class). Those of us that have had some time with Monsanto over the past few months believe that this is the most exciting thing possible for our company and our work. You should not be beholden to rhetoric (on either side of the debate) in determining what it is you want to do with your life, with whom, and how. We are still The Climate Corporation, but you should inform yourself with facts, knowledge, and an understanding of the company that now owns our shares.

The people of The Climate Corporation are going to lead the world to revolutionary solutions to historic problems. This partnership enables us with capital, data, and reach we would not have had on our own.

Let us not be deterred or distracted by misinformation, fear, or anecdote. Let us not be unduly influenced by unfair social pressure. Be strong. Let science and fact guide you. Learn about our opportunity. Learn about our partnership. Take your time.

Eventually, you can inform; but make sure you take the time to first be informed.

We only live one life and should make sure that the work we are engaged in and the way we work delivers to us what we want from our short time here. I believe that is what I am doing and know that all of you will eventually feel the same.

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jul 4, 2014

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Absurd Alhazred posted:

How dare I argue with experts! Under a friend's Facebook post (I'm Anderer; Phil Anderer):






IT KEEPS HAPPENING (Will Power is now Curt N. Call, the rest are new)



I'm thinking I'll respond by stressing the comparison to Kosher foods and demanding that if there is evidence for issues with a GMO product, it can be taken off the market, like trans-fats.

Bates
Jun 15, 2006

Absurd Alhazred posted:

I'm thinking I'll respond by stressing the comparison to Kosher foods and demanding that if there is evidence for issues with a GMO product, it can be taken off the market, like trans-fats.

Keep asking for evidence and make him back up the claim that transgenic seeds can't co-exist with organic seeds. Maybe point out that mutagenic strains can legally be grown in organic fields and organic companies happily market food that was created with RADIATION as organic with no reference to how they were created. You could also point out that you could probably produce toxic crop strains through selective breeding if you were so inclined so therefore...?

But sure, let's have labelling - the "GMO", "Mutagenic" and "Artificial design" labels should cover pretty much all the crops on market today.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Anosmoman posted:

Keep asking for evidence and make him back up the claim that transgenic seeds can't co-exist with organic seeds. Maybe point out that mutagenic strains can legally be grown in organic fields and organic companies happily market food that was created with RADIATION as organic with no reference to how they were created. You could also point out that you could probably produce toxic crop strains through selective breeding if you were so inclined so therefore...?

But sure, let's have labelling - the "GMO", "Mutagenic" and "Artificial design" labels should cover pretty much all the crops on market today.

But you don't understand, he linked to a book. So now I would have to have second-hand arguments with another source that this idiot will repeatedly misrepresent. It's a losing direction to go.

peter banana
Sep 2, 2008

Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.
So, re: labelling. What if I want to spend democratically and just know if GMO's are in my food because they have adverse effects on third world farmers (where much of our industrial agriculture food comes from) or because it often leads to, although is not entirely conflated with monoculture? If I wanted to avoid tacitly supporting these problematic effects which are often conflated, though not necessarily a consequence of GMO's don't I have a right to have that information and make that choice?

Bates
Jun 15, 2006

peter banana posted:

So, re: labelling. What if I want to spend democratically and just know if GMO's are in my food because they have adverse effects on third world farmers (where much of our industrial agriculture food comes from) or because it often leads to, although is not entirely conflated with monoculture? If I wanted to avoid tacitly supporting these problematic effects which are often conflated, though not necessarily a consequence of GMO's don't I have a right to have that information and make that choice?

If we are to label for things not related to nutrition we could wind up with a lot of labels. I want to know the country a product was produced in, under what production and safety standards, environmental regulations, labor regulations, which entities the company works with and support, their stance on various political issues and so on. Is it reasonable for the government to spend resources providing this information for me?

BRAKE FOR MOOSE
Jun 6, 2001

peter banana posted:

So, re: labelling. What if I want to spend democratically and just know if GMO's are in my food because they have adverse effects on third world farmers (where much of our industrial agriculture food comes from) or because it often leads to, although is not entirely conflated with monoculture? If I wanted to avoid tacitly supporting these problematic effects which are often conflated, though not necessarily a consequence of GMO's don't I have a right to have that information and make that choice?

If your concern is exploitation by global agribusiness, then you have to avoid a lot more than GMOs, and obviously not all (or even most) GMOs have adverse effects on third-world farmers. It's a totally ineffective proxy, nothing more than a feel-good, head-in-the-sand way to pretend you're making an ethical choice. Eliminating GMOs from the western marketplace won't slow the corporatization of agriculture, but it will certainly stunt the development of new GMOs.

Martin Random
Jul 18, 2003

by FactsAreUseless

Slanderer posted:

I'm met with a torrent of canned grievances (which mostly fall under the heading of "common myths", ie. "terminator seeds!!!" or "Monsanto destroys poor innocent country farmers!!!"). In the end, it seems impossible to change anyone's mind about the subject.

Let me share something with you.

Back during the housing crisis, I worked for a large wall street firm doing internal investigations of synthetic bond products. Because of this work, I was interested in the housing crash, so I made a hobby of touring failing development properties. The houses all looked a little strange. I couldn't put my finger on it at first, then, because of my finance background, I realized. The layouts were odd but intentionally designed that way; the rooms were put together so as to maximize overall square footage. "Mock" features would be attached - on one house, instead of a balcony, they just bolted a gridiron fence below the window that vaguely looked like a balcony. This wasn't carelessness, though; these were rigorously designed, mass-produced houses. But still, the homes resembled something that an alien might construct, attempting to copy the form of a house but not its substance.

Then I realized that the houses had been very carefully designed not as structures for people to live in, but to maximize square footage, for the purpose of qualifying for the highest possible loan amount with the least amount of construction input. These weren't homes - they were financial instruments. These were not made for people.

I remember back when I was a child, strawberries were red on the inside. They spoiled quickly but they were very delicious. Tomatoes, soft, delicate, vulnerable, but also flavorful. Now strawberries are white on the inside and flavorless to me. Tomatoes? I could throw one at a wall. I live near a place where they grow them, and they are so firm and hard when harvested that they fall off of trucks at every intersection and are perfectly undamaged by the fall. It is more efficient, more profitable, more scalable, to create a shittier tasting but more durable tomato. Not a more flavorful tomato, not a tomato optimized for people, but a tomato optimized for a system, a a tomato that can be more effectively incorporated into a vast distribution mechanism and thus more efficiently converted into dollars by a centralized business interest. These are not tomatoes made for eating. You might say the tomato and strawberry have been taken from us, hijacked by this system, just like the houses that aren't meant to be lived in.

You see chain stores adopting not just the same business model, but the exact same architectural features. Cookie cutter jobbies. They are often uncomfortable in subtle ways that are difficult to notice because they're simultaneously crafted to look inviting; this is because they're often made using methods of hostile or defensive architecture. These buildings tend to cluster together, until a chain commercial district looks the same in Dallas as it might in Chico or East Orange. It feels like a kind of colonization by alien forces.

Houses that aren't for living in. Tomatoes that aren't for eating. Buildings that aren't for people. People see this, and they know something is wrong. There's no way to really articulate just what is going on, maybe because what's wrong is something that is everywhere, something so fundamental to our way of life that it eludes articulation. It is as difficult to grasp as the light by which we can see the objects in a room. But it's there. We're being taken over, somehow. Our food, our environment, everything is being repurposed. And it's adapting to suit the needs of a thing that isn't human.

To some extent, this is such a new thing that we haven't really developed the cultural tools to articulate it or fight it. To some extent, what we're witnessing can be adequately described using the terminology of anti-capitalism, marxism, etc. But these tools of public discourse have been stripped out of our culture. The words have been taken away, but the terrible forces they describe are still active. So we struggle to understand or name or quantify this thing that is going wrong, without the words to do it. This kind of tension usually manifests in the form of conspiracy theories, which are really just a way to try to understand and rationalize and articulate angst about these forces that we're currently incapable of understanding.

That's the whole anti-monsanto thing, I think. These people aren't crazy. What is the saying? They have no mouth yet they must scream. Who wouldn't behave in a bizarre way under such circumstances?

Martin Random fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jul 4, 2014

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Martin Random posted:

Who wouldn't behave in a bizarre way under such circumstances?
Anyone who made sure to eat fruits and vegetables when they are in season, and aimed for ones that were grown nearby, when possible, instead of blaming this on GMO's or the horrors of industrial agriculture. My salad has tomatoes that were grown nearby, and this is Upstate New York. They taste delicious By the way, it's funny that you go for tomatoes and strawberries, both of which have no GMO variants on the market. And tomatoes can be grown anywhere and quickly, so it's easy to move to more flavorful ones, assuming the popular variants aren't and there's sudden consumer demand for that.

Martin Random
Jul 18, 2003

by FactsAreUseless
Yeah, I think you missed my point. If it were just about having tasty tomatoes, these folks would be growing tasty tomatoes themselves or buying heirloom varieties. But they'renot doing that. They're holding protest, spreading paranoid conspiracy stories about cancer, chemtrails, world trade organization conspiracies, and other crazy poo poo.

And somehow they are not open to rational discussion about it. That should be your big hint. Ever had a girlfriend or boyfriend who got all pissy about something in an unreasonable way, but they were really angry about something completely different which somehow, because of the dynamics of the relationship or social decorum eluded direct discussion?

These people aren't simply angry about not getting a tomato that tastes how they want it to taste. There's something more.

Yeah, great, you can grow hothouse tomatoes. PROTEST MOVEMENT SOLVED.

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Anyone who made sure to eat fruits and vegetables when they are in season, and aimed for ones that were grown nearby, when possible, instead of blaming this on GMO's or the horrors of industrial agriculture. My salad has tomatoes that were grown nearby, and this is Upstate New York. They taste delicious By the way, it's funny that you go for tomatoes and strawberries, both of which have no GMO variants on the market. And tomatoes can be grown anywhere and quickly, so it's easy to move to more flavorful ones, assuming the popular variants aren't and there's sudden consumer demand for that.

That's not really his point. People are pissed about the commoditization of food, and can't figure out exactly what the problem is. GMOs became a symbol of this, of a creeping "progress" they don't really want. The problem isn't actually GMOs themselves, but they've become a convenient scapegoat for all agriculture related problems.

Consumers don't generally connect that the real problem is people wanting fresh tomatoes in January without paying anything extra. Flavorless fruits and vegetables are the grocers' response to the demand for fresh, cheap food out of season - but people tend to just see it as technology run amok.

It's rather like how plastics were blamed for all the world's problems a generation ago.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Martin Random posted:

Yeah, I think you missed my point. If it were just about having tasty tomatoes, these folks would be growing tasty tomatoes themselves or buying heirloom varieties. But they'renot doing that. They're holding protest, spreading paranoid conspiracy stories about cancer, chemtrails, world trade organization conspiracies, and other crazy poo poo.

And somehow they are not open to rational discussion about it. That should be your big hint. Ever had a girlfriend or boyfriend who got all pissy about something in an unreasonable way, but they were really angry about something completely different which somehow, because of the dynamics of the relationship or social decorum eluded direct discussion?

These people aren't simply angry about not getting a tomato that tastes how they want it to taste. There's something more.

Yeah, great, you can grow hothouse tomatoes. PROTEST MOVEMENT SOLVED.

Sorry for being trite. That discussion left a bad taste in my mouth, and probably mixes in sentiments from the I/P thread. So... I guess I exemplify the problem of which you speak. :eng99:

Deteriorata posted:

That's not really his point. People are pissed about the commoditization of food, and can't figure out exactly what the problem is. GMOs became a symbol of this, of a creeping "progress" they don't really want. The problem isn't GMOs, but they've become a convenient scapegoat.

Consumers don't generally connect that the real problem is people wanting fresh tomatoes in January without paying anything extra. Flavorless fruits and vegetables are the grocers' response to the demand for fresh, cheap food out of season - but people tend to just see it as technology run amok.

It's rather like how plastics were blamed for all the world's problems a generation ago.

Then how am I to respond to reach out to these people? Is that even possible?

Slanderer
May 6, 2007

Martin Random posted:

To some extent, this is such a new thing that we haven't really developed the cultural tools to articulate it or fight it. To some extent, what we're witnessing can be adequately described using the terminology of anti-capitalism, marxism, etc. But these tools of public discourse have been stripped out of our culture. The words have been taken away, but the terrible forces they describe are still active. So we struggle to understand or name or quantify this thing that is going wrong, without the words to do it. This kind of tension usually manifests in the form of conspiracy theories, which are really just a way to try to understand and rationalize and articulate angst about these forces that we're currently incapable of understanding.

That's the whole anti-monsanto thing, I think. These people aren't crazy. What is the saying? They have no mouth yet they must scream. Who wouldn't behave in a bizarre way under such circumstances?

Well, no, a lot of these people are probably crazy. Many, many more aren't, though. Your aunt reposting some inaccurate, compression artifact filled infographic about the dangers of pasteurized milk is probably not crazy, and you may very well be able to assuage her fears. But your weird uncle who has gone all in and is blames every single ill in his life on Monstanto, the United Nations, or the Black Man Obama probably is. I think this may be one of those topics that hasn't so much created insanity by itself, but instead drawn out the insane hiding in plain sight (or at the very least those prone to delusional thinking). In order to get to the point where you believe that Monsanto killed the bees in order to build a market for GMO SuperBees, you need to have gone so far into these arguments that your entire worldview has been replaced by a set of hilarious falsehoods. These people can't be argued with at that point, because if they were to believe that Monsanto really isn't trying to sterilize the population then that would call into question their belief that Monsanto's mercenary army was trying to seize control of the Iowa state senate which would call into question their belief that the World Bank was trying to establish a marketplace for stolen white women (and so on).

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

peter banana posted:

So, re: labelling. What if I want to spend democratically and just know if GMO's are in my food because they have adverse effects on third world farmers (where much of our industrial agriculture food comes from) or because it often leads to, although is not entirely conflated with monoculture? If I wanted to avoid tacitly supporting these problematic effects which are often conflated, though not necessarily a consequence of GMO's don't I have a right to have that information and make that choice?

GMOs don't have adverse effects on third world farmers that "organic" and "conventional" seeds don't also have; furthermore GMOs do not encourage monoculture any more than "organic" and "conventional" seeds do.

Anyway if you explicitly don't want GMO then the USDA ORGANIC label guarantees it's not GMO, so there's your information! This is probably where you'll whine "but there's less of it and it costs more" well that's what you get for not wanting to eat normal food.

suck my woke dick
Oct 10, 2012

:siren:I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!:siren:

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Deteriorata posted:

Consumers don't generally connect that the real problem is people wanting fresh tomatoes in January without paying anything extra. Flavorless fruits and vegetables are the grocers' response to the demand for fresh, cheap food out of season - but people tend to just see it as technology run amok.

Which is why the reflexive response to "waah GMOs Monsanto :supaburn:" is barely concealed disdain on my part, unless I'm in the mood to have a hour-long session of explaining stuff.

peter banana
Sep 2, 2008

Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

Nintendo Kid posted:

GMOs don't have adverse effects on third world farmers that "organic" and "conventional" seeds don't also have; furthermore GMOs do not encourage monoculture any more than "organic" and "conventional" seeds do.

Anyway if you explicitly don't want GMO then the USDA ORGANIC label guarantees it's not GMO, so there's your information! This is probably where you'll whine "but there's less of it and it costs more" well that's what you get for not wanting to eat normal food.

um, wow. Thanks for the info. Glad I was buying certified organic stuff already. Without whining.

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Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

peter banana posted:

um, wow. Thanks for the info. Glad I was buying certified organic stuff already. Without whining.

Certified by whom? I wonder about those organizations. How much oversight do they really have?

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