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Thinking about how to control wizard scope and ability. I've long thought that Wizards should be forced to choose a specific school of study which would limit the overall availability of other schools (or in certain situations outright deny them) I keep having thoughts like this and should start actually making a ttrpg
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 05:44 |
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# ? May 14, 2024 23:10 |
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Fuschia tude posted:An adventuring party was basically an army in miniature
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 06:08 |
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I've thought that if I ran 2E again, I would require wizards to roll as specialists. I think it would add flavor and level out their power a bit by giving them more spells to cast at low levels and limiting their access to the full gamut of high level crazy. In regards to wandering monsters, they can have a place in modern D&D. Random frequency doesn't really work, but random encounter composition can be cool. For examples: If I don't want the PCs to take long rests in a dungeon, I will make a table of random fairly weak encounters to discourage them. Or if the players are doing a lot of traveling around one dangerous area, I will make a random table of the things they face with a set frequency like every day or whenever they move from one location or "checkpoint" to another.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 06:09 |
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treeboy posted:Thinking about how to control wizard scope and ability. I've long thought that Wizards should be forced to choose a specific school of study which would limit the overall availability of other schools (or in certain situations outright deny them) Okay, what if they pick conjuration? Oops, problem remains. The problem isn't that a wizard with three spell slots can fill them with firebolt, charm, and blink as opposed to firebolt, fireshield, firewall. The problem is that a wizard has three spell slots and a fighter has the attack button.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 06:17 |
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Ferrinus posted:Fighter maneuvers are cool, just like a wizard that got advanced spell slots but could only ever prepare level one spells such that all they ever got was the ability to fling more magic missiles at once would be cool. A wizard with a smaller spell list where spells scale might actually be cool
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 06:24 |
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Amethyst posted:A wizard with a smaller spell list where spells scale might actually be cool Have you read the .pdf? That's how it works. Magic missile is a 1st level spell that shoots three forcebolts. If you spend a 2nd level slot to cast it, it shoots four forcebolts instead. Cast it with a 9th level spell and it shoots ten bolts. At the same time, though, there are actually spells so powerful or dramatic in effect that they need a minimum level spell slot to work at all. There's no 1st level fireball or 8th level time stop, for instance. So, not only can the wizard fire off numerically enhanced versions of his old tricks, but he steadily learns new tricks. Meanwhile, there are no high level maneuvers. The only difference between a level 20 fighter's capabilities and a level 3 fighter's capabilities are the frequency and intensity of the manuevers - there's no qualitative scaling of any kind. So, it's like a wizard who got higher-level spell slots, but never learned higher level spells to cast with them. It's really easy to imagine ways to fix this, even ways that would be consistent with the existing language/power schemes - like, maybe if you spend two dice on a maneuver, or spend dice of a certain size on that maneuver, the maneuver sprouts some new property - but, welllll.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 06:30 |
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Ferrinus posted:Have you read the .pdf? That's how it works. Magic missile is a 1st level spell that shoots three forcebolts. If you spend a 2nd level slot to cast it, it shoots four forcebolts instead. Cast it with a 9th level spell and it shoots ten bolts. Yeah, i meant if you removed the high level spells and make it more like the maneuver list as it stands. I mean, is the small maneuver list boring in a vacuum, or is it only boring next to the never ending smorgasbord of poo poo in the spell list? And yeah what you describe also sounds like a reasonable solution
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 06:33 |
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The funny thing is that even if you removed the high level spells the wizard's "scales with spell slot" system would still beat the maneuver system the fighter got. Here's how fighters improve: * learn more maneuvers * superiority dice go from d8, to d10, to d12 * can store more dice at once (maybe not? I forget, it could be that they just always have a max of five) * at level 15, regenerate 2 dice at the end of any turn that they began with zero dice Buuut you only ever spend one die on one maneuver. So you go from a feint that adds d8 damage to a feint that adds d12 damage. Unlike the wizard, the fighter can't choose whether to use his biggest, strongest dice or mid-level dice or whatever, it's an all or nothing proposition where the difference between "all" and "nothing" is actually pretty minor. Now, since maneuvers trigger on attacks, and fighters get to make multiple attacks, a high level fighter can effectively spend multiple dice in a turn if each attack connects and each enemy saving throw fails, etc, but fundamentally they are still missing the implicit drama in "This foe will require all of my power! Magic missile... nine!" You just... attack, and spend your dice whenever the game decides to let you, until you run out.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 06:40 |
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Amethyst posted:I mean, is the small maneuver list boring in a vacuum, or is it only boring next to the never ending smorgasbord of poo poo in the spell list? It's not boring, and you do get new additions, but your 15th level Maneuvers are, by definition and all practicality, the ones you wanted least. You had the entire pool in front of you, so of course you grabbed the best/coolest/most "you" maneuvers at level 3, then your runners-up at level 7, then the "yeah, I could use that" at 10, and by level 15 you're down to "sure, why not." There's never anything that you're thirsty for. There's no "oh, sweet loving Jesus, at level 15 I can get Own the Battlefield, 4 dice, all my allies get to make an attack as a reaction and add 4d10 damage! "
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 06:50 |
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So currently are there any good sources for monster stats? Other than :files: or that Frog God adventure path? My friends and I wanted to try and do a game over the weekend if possible, maybe not a full adventure but just some random encounters and dungeon crawling. But if it's better to just wait till the 15th we'll probably do that. Also LFK: Are there any dungeon or area maps for the starter kit adventure? I have a bunch of terrain stuff I'd like to use for it.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 07:12 |
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LFK posted:your 15th level Maneuvers are, by definition and all practicality, the ones you wanted least. This is a great way to put it.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 07:26 |
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Crain posted:So currently are there any good sources for monster stats? Other than :files: or that Frog God adventure path? My friends and I wanted to try and do a game over the weekend if possible, maybe not a full adventure but just some random encounters and dungeon crawling. But if it's better to just wait till the 15th we'll probably do that. No foldout battlemaps, though, so you'll have to copy things onto your own battlemat, no big deal. Edit: Monsters out of the playtest, which I guess is technically :files: at this point(?), are serviceable. HP was the biggest thing that changed, though some creatures got a solid boost to their to-hit. The only things that really seem to have a pattern based on CR are HP and damage on a successful hit. I dunno, I'll plug it all into a spreadsheet tomorrow, but here's a rough guide to making stuff. CR 0 - 4 HP, 2 damage CR 1/8 - 5 HP, 4 damage CR 1/4 - 7 HP, 5 damage CR 1/2 - 11 HP, 5 damage CR 1 - 25 HP, 10 damage CR 2 - 45 HP, 13 damage CR 3 - 55 HP, 16 damage Saving throw advantage seems to be really uncommon, so most monsters have -1 to +3 on their saves, and AC is haphazard at best, ranging from 8 to 18. 13 seems to be the average. The saving throw DCs are pretty tightly in the 10-13 range. To hit is usually +3-5. LFK fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Jul 5, 2014 |
# ? Jul 5, 2014 08:02 |
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LFK posted:your 15th level Maneuvers are, by definition and all practicality, the ones you wanted least. You had the entire pool in front of you, so of course you grabbed the best/coolest/most "you" maneuvers at level 3, then your runners-up at level 7, then the "yeah, I could use that" at 10, and by level 15 you're down to "sure, why not." There's never anything that you're thirsty for. There's no "oh, sweet loving Jesus, at level 15 I can get Own the Battlefield, 4 dice, all my allies get to make an attack as a reaction and add 4d10 damage! " Ferrinus posted:This is a great way to put it.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 09:19 |
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LFK posted:Half way between A and B. Yeah, great point, I didn't think of this.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 10:33 |
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One approach I've been thinking of for balancing casters and martial classes, reading the stuff around NEXT (and 4e for that matter). 1) Martial classes (Fighters, Rogues, Rangers, Monks etc) get access to their own maneuver-lists. Perhaps "general" one that all can pick from and some more specialized ones for the various classes. 2) Higher level/higher powered spells couldn't be cast on turn 1, tied into escalation dice for levels of spells available, so your 7th level big boom spell may only be available at turn 4-8, depending on some modifiers. 3) Meanwhile Fighters, rogues, rangers monks etc get a bunch of "quick" maneuvers (basically their level 1-3 maneuvers), with the bigger and trickier stuff (gained at higher levels) unlock the further up in escalation you go (stuff like reshuffling the entire battlefield). 4) The spellcasters can use those special feats to cast prepared, or half-baked, spells earlier, at a cost of either power or risk of failure (basically already in, sorta). 5) Have the status of the combat (ambush, prepared, taken-by-surprise, flanked etc) also affect these spell/maneuver lists, that way you could really have that Conan like "I grab the wizard by the balls and feed 'em to him before he can blast me" effect. Of course, if you screw up / the spellcasters can trade for time the table might be turned. Maybe this already cropped up in the playtest? Haven't done much real DnD gaming, but the above approach appear more sensible than merely making the casters squishier (even if they aren't really, with all those protective spells) and gives all the martial classes a real edge and their players something to do / plan for. The tricky balancing part is A) Not give either side (too much) of an advantage, you don't want it to be too easy (i.e one method that always works) to shank the spellcasters before they can really get going B) not have maneuvers merely be Spells for Non-Spellcasters, which I have herd 4e somewhat "suffered" from
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 11:05 |
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Pimpmust posted:B) not have maneuvers merely be Spells for Non-Spellcasters, which I have herd 4e somewhat "suffered" from This is a common complaint leveled by people who never actually played 4E. If you play a fighter then play a wizard in 4E, you'll see that they play completely differently. The issue (or non-issue) was that every class's abilities were presented in the same style (power cards). People who never actually played 4E, but skimmed the PHB constantly equate the powers looking the same to them being the same.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 13:47 |
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So the other thread discovered this:LongDarkNight posted:Here's the full list [of rituals ]from secret PHB: So wizards can use any of these spells at any time without spending a spell slot or even memorizing them.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 13:51 |
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Ahahahahahha, What's the point of even having non-combat skills if the wizard is guaranteed to be the best at all of them?
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 13:54 |
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Piell posted:So the other thread discovered this: I was feeling good about the game...but then I read this and go back to the other thread and now I don't know what to think.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 14:09 |
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Well at least it limits it to spells in your spell book. Someone mentioned limits to the number of spells a book can carry, was that just a 2e thing or could it also affect 5e?
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 14:15 |
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treeboy posted:Thinking about how to control wizard scope and ability. I've long thought that Wizards should be forced to choose a specific school of study which would limit the overall availability of other schools (or in certain situations outright deny them)
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 14:16 |
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Rosalind posted:This is a common complaint leveled by people who never actually played 4E. If you play a fighter then play a wizard in 4E, you'll see that they play completely differently. The issue (or non-issue) was that every class's abilities were presented in the same style (power cards). People who never actually played 4E, but skimmed the PHB constantly equate the powers looking the same to them being the same. Yeah figured that, and it's not like people complain about Cleric/Druid magic being mechanically similar to the other magic in previous editions, it's jus the source of that power that differs (and really, the same for some super Hercules martial arts/weapon master hero). Muscle Magic School.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 14:18 |
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quote:Divine Intervention Meanwhile, quote:The DM can impose more realism. For example, a suit of plate armor made for one human might not fit another one without significant alterations, and a guard’s uniform might be visibly ill-fitting when an adventurer tries to wear it as a disguise. This edition is going to be just magical. Littlefinger fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Jul 5, 2014 |
# ? Jul 5, 2014 14:27 |
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treeboy posted:Well at least it limits it to spells in your spell book. Someone mentioned limits to the number of spells a book can carry, was that just a 2e thing or could it also affect 5e? Also note that clerics can only cast spells as rituals if they have them prepared. Wizards? Anything in their spellbooks. Wizards are just flat out better than you, period.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 14:39 |
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treeboy posted:Well at least it limits it to spells in your spell book. Someone mentioned limits to the number of spells a book can carry, was that just a 2e thing or could it also affect 5e? But there's no limit to how many spellbooks you can carry, right? And what DM would take away spellbooks in a "you catch on fire" or "get pickpocketed of your components"? E: what Littlefinger said. Seriously.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 14:41 |
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Maybe I'm just missing it, but Knock isn't marked as a Ritual in the Basic rules.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 14:46 |
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Those were from the secret PHB playtest. Maybe it's just an editing error, maybe they realised their folly. Except for Comprehend Languages and Silence, the rituals in Basic are kinda OK, things like Detect Magic or Identify. No one should have to memorize those two, heck, they shouldn't even be in the game, but WotC is clearly trying to appeal to the MMO-Diablo2 video game crowd. Littlefinger fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Jul 5, 2014 |
# ? Jul 5, 2014 15:19 |
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Speaking of limiting wizard spell selection by schools, Eldritch Knights can only pick evocations and abjurations.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 16:05 |
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Decided to just pick up the starter set anyway. My local place actually had it in stock. It looks pretty good. Just kinda wish the pregen sheets were thicker paper. I'll probable just get those laminated anyway. I really like the maps in the adventure guide. So far the story is nice and tight with pleanty of stuff to do if you don't want to just run the story missions. Pretty good quality for $20.
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# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:20 |
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On the Ritual thing they still need the spell in their book and they need it takes 10 mintues to cast. Also stuff like Knock is not as good as having a rogue.
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 00:31 |
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Yeah, I mean it's not like rogues can fail or that Knock works 100% of the time, that would be crazy!
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 00:34 |
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Piell posted:Yeah, I mean it's not like rogues can fail or that Knock works 100% of the time, that would be crazy! It's not like the Rogue can try again and the fact that Knock alerts everyone within 300 ft when cast and the fact that it's not a ritual anymore meaning using it costs one of your valuable level 2 slots.
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 00:37 |
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Who cares about Knock? Knock should be a ritual - it's exactly the kind of spell the ritual rules were made for. You might as well charge a fighter hit dice each time they kick a door down.
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 00:39 |
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Ferrinus posted:Who cares about Knock? Knock should be a ritual - it's exactly the kind of spell the ritual rules were made for. You might as well charge a fighter hit dice each time they kick a door down. And somewhere a 5e designer slaps his forehead and thinks, "Why didn't I think of that?!"
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 00:42 |
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Even Paizo managed to fix Knock. Ritual or not it sucks.
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 00:53 |
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LongDarkNight posted:Even Paizo managed to fix Knock. Ritual or not it sucks. How did pathfinder do it differently?
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 00:56 |
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MonsterEnvy posted:It's not like the Rogue can try again Can he? Because there are no rules in this finally crafted manual describing what happens when you fail a skill check.
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 01:01 |
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AlphaDog posted:Maybe I'm just missing it, but Knock isn't marked as a Ritual in the Basic rules. Silence also allows you to move silently or indeed, smash stuff to bits silently. Like say, kicking down a door. So much for stealthy rogues. Get ready for a decade of arguments over who hears what, and when. A Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jul 6, 2014 |
# ? Jul 6, 2014 01:15 |
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I'm still waiting for some feat or class feature or whatever that gives you a bonus bonus action.
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 01:20 |
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# ? May 14, 2024 23:10 |
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In case you didn't want to bother with the other thread here are some quotes from Mearls.quote:@rjfTrebor : can cantrips with attack rolls be used with the extra attack mechanic? quote:@bodieh : are there any options for an equivalent of using acrobatics to move through an opponent? quote:@wax_eagle : Question about Divine Intervention, is it *supposed* to say percentile? Or d20? Going from 10% up to 19% to auto success is odd? quote:@zamubafoo : So what happened to martial dice anyways? I truly hope they at least make it into the DMG as an optional rule quote:@TheOzymandiasII : Love the Warlock. Usually stuck as healer. Any way to get best of both worlds? Or not in their purview? #warlockobsessed quote:@SamSykesSwears : They discontinued tapatillo doritos?! What the **** is even the point of living now quote:@Danny2Chins : G8t job on .pdf, sorry for bothering you again. Is it true stats including racial bonuses cannot be above 18 at lvl1? quote:@seanbonney : Can a wizard Burning Hands himself? His hands clearly aren't affected, but what about his feet? #dnd quote:@mikemearls : This beer is afraid of fireworks. Better keep it safe in my tummy. #Happy4thofJuly quote:@dd_stevenson : Sorry, I've got to ask: why isn't monte cook in basic's credits? quote:@pukunui81 : You don't proficiency to use thieves' tools in general, but you do need it to pick locks? #dnd #amiright quote:@Danny2Chins : Especially with the Realms, it seems like only a few cities get alot of coverage. Maybe they could be digital resources 4 sale? quote:@MWDuo : Question for you @mikemearls. Is choosing a subrace required or optional?. Not 100% clear quote:Mike Mearls: Regarding Potent Cantrip - we'll add cantrips that can benefit from it to Basic D&D. quote:@mikemearls Q: What happens if a creature is invisible but not hidden? quote:@mikemearls Q: What happens if a creature is invisible but not hidden? quote:@mattstaggs : Feats. Can just one player in a group use them and others not w/out it becoming a balance issue or does everyone have to? quote:@Danubus43 : Can we get a few monsters added to basic set? No gaming store near here carrying Starter set and friend gets his on 22nd. quote:@SymphFan : For 2weapon fighting, do you get at most 1 bonus hit a turn even if you have Extra Attacks from the fighter? (Uses Bonus action) quote:@mikemearls : Really nice breakdown of Basic D&D compared to playtest - http://harbinger-of-doom.blogspot.com/2014/07/d-basic-races-and-classes.html … quote:@Robotdjuret : Curious about the dwarves, armor and magic bit. How did that balance in playtest? Sounds pretty munchkinable.
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# ? Jul 6, 2014 04:44 |