TG July Chat Thread: Now with 20% less uncanny valley

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG July Chat Thread: Now with 20% less uncanny valley

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Esser-Z: Jun 3, 2012

Complete with a chance of character death!

# ? Jul 7, 2014 14:05

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 16:04

Thanlis: Mar 17, 2011

Destrado posted:

That would be perilously close to a reasonable early response if he hadn't stuck the "but you see them being reprehensible assholes is part of the plan" in the middle there.

Oh. So Mearls does not know the rule about not hiring assholes. I always forget that this is a common enough mistake so that someone wrote a book about it.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 14:37

Captain Foo: May 11, 2004; we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

Elfgames posted:

I thought we had fun playing octane Foo why you gotta hurt me like that?

I didn't say "elfgames is never cool" did I?

Also the 50 point gurpspocalypse doesn't work. There are a couple of options in it that are actually incompatible.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 15:06

Guilty Spork: Feb 26, 2011; Thunder rolled. It rolled a six.

potatocubed posted:

That point 2 is 100% bullshit. a) 'Brutality' is not a prerequisite for thorough system analysis; and b) There are plenty of talented game designers out there who can analyse and dismantle your work without also being toxic shitlords.

But Wizards chose those two.

I suspect, as someone pointed out upthread, it was just a way of simultaneously buying off two of their biggest potential critics and getting their fanbases on-board in the process. It's not a choice I think they should just get away with.

Actually, while I'm getting this off my chest: Point 1 is disingenuous bullshit as well. The problem isn't specifically that Pundit and Zak are homophobic or discriminatory - that's just a confusion that's sprung up from somewhere - it's that they're awful. Both of them claim that Mearls reads and is a fan of their blogs, so either someone's telling fibs as part of some PR exercise or he knew drat well what they were like and what sort of discussion they bring to the table when he hired them.

There might have been some people somewhere who were calling Tarnowski racist or homophobic or whatever, but on the whole Pundit is cherry-picking those few comments to build a false narrative to deflect criticism of his actual awfulness. He actually seems to be pretty decent on those kinds of issues, apart from how he takes any opportunity to use them as a cudgel against people who Play Elfgames Wrong, but then he does that with basically everything in the universe.

(I can't speak for Zak because Zak's online communications are like something that came out of a malfunctioning supercomputer rather than a person, but the stuff people have said has been downright disturbing.)

# ? Jul 7, 2014 15:14

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Ettin posted:

By request, reposting Mearls:

Where is this from?

And please tell me people are sending him stuff.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 16:20

Error 404: Jul 17, 2009; MAGE CURES PLOT

dwarf74 posted:

Where is this from?

And please tell me people are sending him stuff.

I hope so, I personally brought it to the attention of a few peeps who have been getting hosed with in this.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 16:39

Ewen Cluney: May 8, 2012; Ask me about
Japanese elfgames!

dwarf74 posted:

Where is this from?

And please tell me people are sending him stuff.

David Hill posted on twitter that Zak's involvement was enough for him to not spend a cent on the new D&D, and that was where Mike Mearls posted that, though a few people reshared it since then. David shared some of the stuff that his family has had to go through as a result of Zak's actions, and... it's a lot worse than I would have imagined.

I emailed Mearls myself, though thankfully I've never had to deal with the really bad stuff myself, just Pundit blatantly lying about a game I worked on in order to further his usual :beck:

conspiracy theories about evil storygamers coming to destroy real RPGs in the dead of night.

I'm pretty sure he's going to have a lot of these emails to go through (and a lot from people who've suffered a lot worse than me), so I don't expect a reply any time soon.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 17:32

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

I hate to say it, but I doubt it's going to do any good. My G+ feed is chock full of "well he's never been terrible to me so everyone is making things up" and "how dare people GATEKEEP" (despite the fact that that's what people like Zak do when they try to drive out people they don't like) and other assorted bullshit.

Like the people who are complaining are just making poo poo up because who loving knows.

Seriously, gently caress this hobby.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 17:52

potatocubed: Jul 26, 2012; *rathian noises*

Guilty Spork posted:

There might have been some people somewhere who were calling Tarnowski racist or homophobic or whatever, but on the whole Pundit is cherry-picking those few comments to build a false narrative to deflect criticism of his actual awfulness. He actually seems to be pretty decent on those kinds of issues, apart from how he takes any opportunity to use them as a cudgel against people who Play Elfgames Wrong, but then he does that with basically everything in the universe.

Just to make myself clear: I agree entirely. And I think Mearls is complicit in creating this false narrative by specifying the kind of 'bad behaviour' he wants brought to his attention in point 1.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 17:55

MadScientistWorking: Jun 23, 2010; "I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Evil Mastermind posted:

I hate to say it, but I doubt it's going to do any good. My G+ feed is chock full of "well he's never been terrible to me so everyone is making things up" and "how dare people GATEKEEP" (despite the fact that that's what people like Zak do when they try to drive out people they don't like) and other assorted bullshit.

Like the people who are complaining are just making poo poo up because who loving knows.

Seriously, gently caress this hobby.

I don't know if you can really ignore the issue when some of the more prominent RPG publishers out there despise Zak's antics with an blinding brightness.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 18:07

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Ewen Cluney posted:

David Hill posted on twitter that Zak's involvement was enough for him to not spend a cent on the new D&D, and that was where Mike Mearls posted that, though a few people reshared it since then. David shared some of the stuff that his family has had to go through as a result of Zak's actions, and... it's a lot worse than I would have imagined.

I emailed Mearls myself, though thankfully I've never had to deal with the really bad stuff myself, just Pundit blatantly lying about a game I worked on in order to further his usual conspiracy theories about evil storygamers coming to destroy real RPGs in the dead of night.

I'm pretty sure he's going to have a lot of these emails to go through (and a lot from people who've suffered a lot worse than me), so I don't expect a reply any time soon.

Is there a link to all of this?

# ? Jul 7, 2014 18:10

Ewen Cluney: May 8, 2012; Ask me about
Japanese elfgames!

dwarf74 posted:

Is there a link to all of this?

https://plus.google.com/+DavidHillJr/posts/3sygwxi1SQL

I really need to put this poo poo out of my mind and focus on more positive stuff, because there's actually a lot.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 18:13

Crosscontaminant: Jan 18, 2007

Captain Foo posted:

Also the 50 point gurpspocalypse doesn't work. There are a couple of options in it that are actually incompatible.

Which ones? I'm skimming the book and can't find any - I thought Emanation/Area Effect might be it since there's a note about "ranged attack modifiers", but then I saw that it explicitly mentions Area Effect as a prerequisite for Emanation.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 19:41

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Bucnasti posted:

While people are talking about pundit and grogs, there's something I've always wondered...

Why do they even care about new editions of DnD?

I mean, it seems they all worship at the altar of Gygax and subscribe to some previous holy book, be it BECMI, ADnD, 3.x or Pathfinder, so why do they get so butthurt that new editions don't work the way they want? It's not like WotC is sending stormtroopers to burn all their old books, it's not like there isn't a metric boatload of previous content for those editions, and it's not like there aren't tons of people out there still producing stuff for them.

What the gently caress are they really afraid of?

Growing up.

It's pretty much the same thing that happens when a new He-Man or Transformers or Ninja Turtles or Star Wars or whatever comes out, and people get furiously angry that it doesn't validate their childhood.

SALT CURES HAM posted:

Wouldn't the best way to combat shitlords like Zak S and RPGPundit be to bring non-shitlords into the hobby until they're outnumbered?

This doesn't work, and

SALT CURES HAM posted:

Well, yeah. You're never gonna get rid of them. The idea is to make them no longer the dominant force in the hobby by introducing people who aren't terrible to it and steering them away from shitlord-supporting stuff, so even if the shitlords are still around they're suddenly the minority and their views are no longer the baseline for people involved in the hobby.

this is really hard to do, because self-appointed pundits are willing to put a lot of effort into positioning themselves as the first point-of-contact for people who want to join a community based around a product. It's why companies with good marketing identify such people as toxic customers and find ways of exiling them from the community, either subtly or explicitly.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 21:06

Spincut: Jan 14, 2008; Oh! OSHA gonna make you serve time!
'Cause you an occupational hazard tonight.

I was asked to write about the "inclusivity paragraphs" in D&D and I'd like to point out the RPGPundit and Zak S. mentions in the credits. Is there somewhere definitively that I can point people to or quote that just gives a sum-up of "these people are crazy?"

We can say that these people are awful and toxic since there are people here who have had to put up with their bullshit, but it'd really be helpful to give others something to latch onto that says these people are terrible.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 21:34

Lemon-Lime: Aug 6, 2009

Spincut posted:

I was asked to write about the "inclusivity paragraphs" in D&D and I'd like to point out the RPGPundit and Zak S. mentions in the credits. Is there somewhere definitively that I can point people to or quote that just gives a sum-up of "these people are crazy?"

We can say that these people are awful and toxic since there are people here who have had to put up with their bullshit, but it'd really be helpful to give others something to latch onto that says these people are terrible.

This is a good starting point: http://wouldyouagreethat.tumblr.com/

# ? Jul 7, 2014 21:43

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Spincut posted:

I was asked to write about the "inclusivity paragraphs" in D&D and I'd like to point out the RPGPundit and Zak S. mentions in the credits. Is there somewhere definitively that I can point people to or quote that just gives a sum-up of "these people are crazy?"

We can say that these people are awful and toxic since there are people here who have had to put up with their bullshit, but it'd really be helpful to give others something to latch onto that says these people are terrible.

Someone seems to be taking the time to compile quotes with sources here.

It's probably worth emphasizing too that the consultants had absolutely nothing to do with the paragraphs though; there seems to be a persistent thread of confusion there. Those paragraphs do come out of a place of genuine good intention, just... insensitive wording.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 21:46

Captain Foo: May 11, 2004; we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

Crosscontaminant posted:

Which ones? I'm skimming the book and can't find any - I thought Emanation/Area Effect might be it since there's a note about "ranged attack modifiers", but then I saw that it explicitly mentions Area Effect as a prerequisite for Emanation.

IIRC rapid fire doesn't stack with emanation, but it's been a while. Paging The Oldest Man.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 21:49

Spincut: Jan 14, 2008; Oh! OSHA gonna make you serve time!
'Cause you an occupational hazard tonight.

neongrey posted:

Someone seems to be taking the time to compile quotes with sources here.

It's probably worth emphasizing too that the consultants had absolutely nothing to do with the paragraphs though; there seems to be a persistent thread of confusion there. Those paragraphs do come out of a place of genuine good intention, just... insensitive wording.

Oh no no, I don't mean to assume that they are linked, except by the fact that they are trying to say that they are being inclusive while also sponsoring someone who is known to be transphobic. I want it to be more of a yes, they're doing this and that is great, but it's also important to look at the repercussions of this.

Especially since I'm writing for a gaming site that is slanted towards LGBTQ, I think it's important to be critical of situations like this, wording, consultants, and all.

Thanks for your help! I'll scan the tumblr.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 21:55

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying you're making that connection or even that you're going to suggest it exists... just that because the paragraphs and consultants come up at the same time a lot, it's worth making extra clear that there's no connection, I think.

e: The consultants are a lot worse for being specifically abusive rather than individual moments of transphobia/homophobia/racism/sexism/etc though. You'll never catch mr s using a slur in public, say, but you will catch a lot of argument steeped in misogyny.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 21:57

SunAndSpring: Dec 4, 2013

Lemon Curdistan posted:

This is a good starting point: http://wouldyouagreethat.tumblr.com/

Some of those are kind of silly, like that one which has the tag "privilege denial" because someone doesn't like the dumb "check your privilege" thing, but the rest is a veritable gold mine of grognards.txt and I'm glad for it. Like

quote:

So without further ado, my comments to Mike:

"Seriously dude, you need to put a muzzle on Monte Cook. Every time the guy opens his mouth about 5e he scares the living poo poo out of the majority of regular old-school gamers.
First his �feats are core� comment; and now his comment that he/you/WoTC wants 5e to be a �simulationist� game. Both have basically helped to undo any good PR work you might have been doing with a huge number of gamers at theRPGsite, never mind the REALLY old school sites.

You realize that you might as well be telling old school gamers that it will glorify nazi atrocities, right? It seems to me like Monte can�t possibly realize what loaded loving terms both of those words (but especially the Forgetalk of the latter) really are, and how they are essentially saying (whatever he may have thought or intended to say) to old school gamers: �5e will be a game that will poo poo all over the things that you value, and we feel proud of telling you that and using the language of your Enemies, of the people that despise the type of D&D you love, to say it�.

So seriously, get the man some kind of sensitivity counseling, or just disconnect his loving vocal cords.�

Jesus. I dislike a lot of poo poo Monte does, but I don't want the dude hurt for making casters better than martial classes.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 22:11

FewtureMD: Dec 19, 2010; I am very powerful, of course.

Spincut posted:

Oh no no, I don't mean to assume that they are linked, except by the fact that they are trying to say that they are being inclusive while also sponsoring someone who is known to be transphobic. I want it to be more of a yes, they're doing this and that is great, but it's also important to look at the repercussions of this.

Especially since I'm writing for a gaming site that is slanted towards LGBTQ, I think it's important to be critical of situations like this, wording, consultants, and all.

Thanks for your help! I'll scan the tumblr.

Do you have a link to this site? I'd to get more LGBTQ gaming stuff in my life.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 23:13

Spincut: Jan 14, 2008; Oh! OSHA gonna make you serve time!
'Cause you an occupational hazard tonight.

FewtureMD posted:

Do you have a link to this site? I'd to get more LGBTQ gaming stuff in my life.

Oh, sure! I write for GayGamer.net. They mostly focus on video games, but my stuff is pretty much all based around board games and RPGs.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 23:29

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

Did you guys see that Cosmopoliton is publishing content for Apocalypse world now?

# ? Jul 7, 2014 23:46

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

I saw an issue and it said it had 50 sex moves!

# ? Jul 7, 2014 23:46

Rulebook Heavily: Sep 18, 2010; by FactsAreUseless

When you punch someone over the internet, roll +groan

# ? Jul 7, 2014 23:48

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Booooooo, get off the stage.

# ? Jul 7, 2014 23:49

Captain Foo: May 11, 2004; we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

# ? Jul 7, 2014 23:58

Esser-Z: Jun 3, 2012

AWAY WITH THE, CRETIN

# ? Jul 8, 2014 00:01

Ettin: Oct 2, 2010

So we're clear, I've contacted Mearls already, and he's confirmed that he has no intention of sharing any information he receives, including the identities of anyone who contacts him. Just putting that out there since I know a few people who have been withholding in case they get harassed again.

Also, obviously, only send Mearls constructive emails and not HURF DURF YOU'RE A SHITBUTT.

And I contacted him before the Rudyard Kipling thing came up so if someone could send him that that would be tops.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 01:58

Forums Terrorist: Dec 8, 2011

quote:

Yes, its Joseph Rudyard Kipling; beloved storyteller, poet, intellectual; and these days maligned by the left-wing nanny-staters lily-livered limp-wristed cowards who are actually so delusional as to think that western civilization is a bad thing.

Christ, he really is Rush Limbaugh for grogs.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 02:04

Just Burgs: Jan 15, 2011; Gravy Boat 2k

Mormon Star Wars posted:

I saw an issue and it said it had 50 sex moves!

# ? Jul 8, 2014 02:10

Dagon: Apr 16, 2003

That's what you get for reading Women's Cosmo. You need:

# ? Jul 8, 2014 02:43

Cyphoderus: Apr 21, 2010; I'll have you know, foxes have the finest call in nature

Ettin posted:

And I contacted him before the Rudyard Kipling thing came up so if someone could send him that that would be tops.

Is there actually an anti-Kipling sort of thing going on? I've never read anything by him, but have Kim lined up on the bookshelf, it looks like it'll be cool. I've never heard anyone "malign" him except for bringing up the fact that he was, you know, English and talking about India a 100 years ago.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 02:53

Sloppy Milkshake: Nov 9, 2004; I MAKE YOU HUMBLE

Cyphoderus posted:

Is there actually an anti-Kipling sort of thing going on? I've never read anything by him, but have Kim lined up on the bookshelf, it looks like it'll be cool. I've never heard anyone "malign" him except for bringing up the fact that he was, you know, English and talking about India a 100 years ago.

You've never heard of the white man's burden?

# ? Jul 8, 2014 02:56

zachol: Feb 13, 2009; Once per turn, you can Tribute 1 WATER monster you control (except this card) to Special Summon 1 WATER monster from your hand. The monster Special Summoned by this effect is destroyed if "Raging Eria" is removed from your side of the field.

Cyphoderus posted:

Is there actually an anti-Kipling sort of thing going on? I've never read anything by him, but have Kim lined up on the bookshelf, it looks like it'll be cool. I've never heard anyone "malign" him except for bringing up the fact that he was, you know, English and talking about India a 100 years ago.

I feel like the problem is with the suggestion that the things Englishmen from 100 years ago were saying were bad things, more than a reaction against slights to Kipling himself. I doubt Pundit particularly cares about Kipling much at all, but he certainly cares about (maintaining) Kipling's views.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 02:58

Error 404: Jul 17, 2009; MAGE CURES PLOT

I like how if you read the thread that that came from, even his fan club tear him apart on that one.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 03:03

Gau: Nov 18, 2003; I don't think you understand, Gau.

Maybe he subscribes to the idea that Kipling was being ironic, despite being an avowed imperialist?

# ? Jul 8, 2014 03:20

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Gau posted:

Maybe he subscribes to the idea that Kipling was being ironic, despite being an avowed imperialist?

If you read the thread he totally believes that the British Empire was a force for good and civilization. Not to the extent of a Niall Ferguson or a Dinesh D'Souza, but still. Also poo poo-talking Chinua Achebe.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 03:34

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 16:04

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

SquadronROE posted:

I thought Traveller might be a cool RPG to try to read up on since it was one of the earlier Sci-Fi RPGs. I then read through some of the character creation rules... It looks like it would take a full game session just to create a single character.

Mongoose Traveller is a superb translation, and it isn't too bad - you are best served making up a whole party of characters together though so you can run their development year by year and work out connections. It's basically a minigame.

e: for all his apparent dreadfulness zak s' vornheim was an amazing piece of work, so borrow it or whatever if you don't want to pay him for it, but it's very worth reading.

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Jul 8, 2014

# ? Jul 8, 2014 03:42

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG July Chat Thread: Now with 20% less uncanny valley

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