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Stationary transports would be ok, since the transport in question would have to spend a round parked in line of sight to the gunline, but assaulting the first turn you show up on the table would be too much. If you're facing a mostly shooting based army, that would give you the ability to tie up and kill just about anything you want, without fear of repercussions. Your opponent would just get to say "Oops, there goes that unit", before any dice are rolled at all. Even shooting attacks still have to roll to wound/kill, and grant armor/invuln/cover saves. It removes any agency at all from the defending player, and that's the main reason why I think GW has kept away from it. Look at it from the other side. A player defending against a shooting attack can hide in cover or out of line of sight. They can have heavy armor, or be airborne, or supernaturally strong. Using terrain, they can often chose at deployment which firelanes to avoid and which ones would have less of an impact. Granted, the shooting player can use units/tactics to overcome these obstacles, but the defending player still has (at least some) choice in the matter. And this is before any dice are rolled. The main problem, maybe, is just that the armies aren't that balanced against each other that well. And by armies, I mean Eldar and maybe Tau.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:32
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Power Player posted:Petition to have Basilisks models removed from GW's site and from the game as artillery pieces should NOT be that close to the front line. Leman Russ, Whirlwinds, Basilisks, Big-Gunz, fire-prisms etc should operate like bombardment templates in Planetstrike. To be realistic we shouldn't have any models on the table. You "deploy" your purchased models on a spreadsheet so you can determine the damage given and received according to the statistics. Then on turn 5 a squad of space marines deploys by Drop-pod to camp whatever is left. Much more fulfilling. edit: Squifferific posted:Hmmm Perhaps the people being assaulted could not deploy in assault range of the table edge? Your entire point is that people are forced to deploy in cover/out of range to avoid shooting, so that is okay. By the same token you can deploy in cover/out of range to avoid assault from reserves. You also roll dice when assaulting, such as do I hit, do I wound. You start by rolling dice to determine whether you are in range to assault. You roll even less dice as the victim of shooting on the first turn. Raphus C fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 21:33
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Power Player posted:Petition to have Basilisks models removed from GW's site and from the game as artillery pieces should NOT be that close to the front line. This grinds my spergy rear end gears, they should just be a points thing you pay for, or like you just take a spotter dude to represent you have one off the board. poo poo's dumb, and not cool 40k dumb.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:34
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SRM posted:I do wish they'd bring back assaulting from reserves or stationary transports. That would fix assault for me in a huge way. Overwatch isn't terribly effective for me 9 times out of 10, and random charge distance hasn't really changed much aside from the occasional 2 or 12 inch charge. I wonder if anyone has tried these out for 6th or 7th. Stationary transport would be the easiest fix I feel, since usually by turn 2 you're going to be in prime range for an assault anyway with most non-opentopped transports. Squifferific posted:The main problem, maybe, is just that the armies aren't that balanced against each other that well. And by armies, I mean Eldar and maybe Tau. Well there's that too, yeah.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:35
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Fun > realism, 100% of the time, particularly in games. The two aspects of hurting things are doing it from a distance and doing it up close and personal--in a game about hurting things, I'd very much like the one to be as effective as the other. It's funny as hell, and fluffy to boot: these are techno-barbarian space Catholics fighting mushroom-pondscum mans that act like soccer hooligans and make things go faster by believing they do so by painting them red. I reiterate that a shooting unit (and for that matter, a shooting army) should fear assault as much as assault units/armies fear shooting. The prospect of my green hordes reaching your dug-in cyber-soldiers should be terrifying and the fight should be just short of a foregone conclusion precisely because of the fact that it took 3 turns of being shot to pieces to even get there in the first place--never mind that the armies who rely on assault all have rules that hurt them by forcing them into stupid decisions (the CSM must-challenge thing) or outright loving killing your own guys or losing control of them (Nids and Orks). It had drat well better be worth the trek and the loving points to wander up through a meat grinder like Pickett's Charge 38,200 years after the fact. There are so many guarantees and benefits to shooting and so few to assault that counterbalancing in assault's favor I feel would offer a fine sense of perspective to shooty players.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:37
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Esser-Z posted:Or, y'know, make assault-specialized factions. *except Tyranids
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Jul 10, 2014 21:37
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Raphus C posted:Perhaps the people being assaulted could not deploy in assault range of the table edge? Also, the assault(ed) unit generally gets to overwatch, gets to strike back in combat, etc, which are advantages that dedicated assault units simply don't have a good analogue for against shooting armies. Anyway, arguments like the one you're responding to always strike me as weak because they're like "Oh no if the enemy maneuvers into a position where his strength is against my weakness, I might get wrecked  " without, apparently, realizing that this is currently the default state of affairs for assault armies looking at shooting armies.It basically reads as shooting players being afraid that assault players would be able to do to them the sort of thing that they currently do to assault players.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:49
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Fair comment, certainly. I played my first 7th game the other day against orks and was quite surprised how effective their overwatch wasn't. Most of my charging was my fnp DC squad though so they're kind of hard to hurt generally. The game was lost when they failed a 5" charge despite jumppack rerolls... If I'm wading into unknown competition at 1500 and my list is: Sanguinor Sang guard 10 DC w lemartes DC dred Snipers Stormraven Do I want to round it out with a tac squad in a razorback or a dev squad? Obvs the rb provides some more hardiness to the army, but my concern is that I lack shooting that can even think about touching armour. My only real shooting without them is on the stormraven... I'm not v good at this game. Thoughts? Alternatively I could just put a baal pred on the table but last time it ate it quickly. Nichol fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 21:52
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The assault phase is great because it makes for the best stories. Nobody cares if your guys shot a carnifex to death or whatever, it happens all the time. Meanwhile, things like a lone sergeant wiping out an entire squad or a gaunt somehow managing to kill a bloodthirster will stick around. I used to always run tricked-out veteran sergeants in my tactical squads because close combat was fun and I I can't find a good picture, but one of my favorite models was an old metal sergeant with a power axe in kind of a  pose. I ran the guy with a plasma pistol and he became a little bit of a legend in my old group. His entire squad would frequently die around him and he'd become unstoppable. Not in every game, obviously, but it happened enough that my friends would go out of their way to avoid him. I still have the model and now I'm thinking about stripping the old done-by-a-14-year-old paint job to repaint it.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:57
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I think part of the problem is viewing things as 'assault armies' or 'shooting armies'. I've always viewed and used the assault phase as an important part of my Space Marine game, and never viewed it as a particularly weak part of the game. Likewise, I don't understand people calling things like Tyranids an assault army. Have you read the book? There is a lot of really, really good shooting in it, and it has great fliers.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:59
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Nichol posted:Basically play whfb if you want to swing axen. Space guns>Swords But based on the fluff my lizards should have been able to use magic to will themselves into space. Where are my space lizardmen GW?  All the work has alread been done for you!
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Jul 10, 2014 22:18
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waah posted:But based on the fluff my lizards should have been able to use magic to will themselves into space. Where are my space lizardmen GW? The space lizards are hanging out with the space dwarfs in the space no fun zone 
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Jul 10, 2014 22:37
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Squifferific posted:Look at it from the other side. A player defending against a shooting attack can hide in cover or out of line of sight. They can have heavy armor, or be airborne, or supernaturally strong. Using terrain, they can often chose at deployment which firelanes to avoid and which ones would have less of an impact. Granted, the shooting player can use units/tactics to overcome these obstacles, but the defending player still has (at least some) choice in the matter. And this is before any dice are rolled. Also: Safety Factor posted:The assault phase is great because it makes for the best stories.
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Jul 10, 2014 22:42
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Yeah, assault is where stories are told. Speaking of, anyone up for Vassal soon? I need more people to play with before my physical army gets here and I complete it!
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Jul 10, 2014 22:58
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Just looking for an opinion here. I'm kicking off a 7th edition Escalation campaign for a group of beerhammer players. We have a 'no dick lists' policy in place but our guard player has submitted two lists for the 750pt kickoff. List #1 is Pask in a Punisher + Executioner sidekick with 2 x Meltavets in Chimeras. List #2 is 2 x Meltavets in Chimeras, a blob and a pair of Wyverns. Does either of these seem a little gamey or am I needlessly overrating 2 Russes or 2 Wyverns at 750pts?
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Jul 10, 2014 22:59
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kill him in the streets execution style those would both be incredibly unfun to play against
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Jul 10, 2014 23:34
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TKIY posted:Just looking for an opinion here. I'm kicking off a 7th edition Escalation campaign for a group of beerhammer players. We have a 'no dick lists' policy in place but our guard player has submitted two lists for the 750pt kickoff.  Oh boy. That reminds me of our ETC player's feeble attempt at getting into our low-power campaign. How low-poer are we talking?
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Jul 10, 2014 23:55
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CCS: Chimera. 2 platoons with 2 squads each, Platoon #1 has 2 autocannons in the squads, #2 has 2 lascannons. Meltavets in chimera Leman Russ. Try handing him that.
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Jul 11, 2014 00:00
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In regards to the assault discussion, my local club has taken to using huge, LoS blocking pieces of terrain. It adds to the grand scale of things, and really changes the way assault plays. Static forces have to be careful they don't get snuck up on, and mobile forces have to be careful they don't get split into a position where they are unable to support other parts of the army. Makes for some pretty fun games without changing the core rules a lick.
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Jul 11, 2014 00:13
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I'm going to magnetise some stuff om my incomming XV8s, since I don't have them here I have no idea how large magnet I have to get. Anyone have any idea? The smallest ones on waylandgames are 3mm diameter, is that too large?
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Jul 11, 2014 00:41
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True LOS and vehicles- how does it work? Vehicles have AVs in the front, back, rear, etc. You use true line of sight to shoot at things. Do you hit the side you see the most of, or do you hit the weakest side you can draw LOS to? Likewise, if you can only see a tiny little bit of the side of a tank, does it count as getting a cover save (IE: you are shooting at a rhino and can see some of the side armor through a small window, but the front is facing you otherwise). I have about 4 40k editions rattling around my head so sorry if this is a dumb questions 
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Jul 11, 2014 00:47
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Sistergodiva posted:I'm going to magnetise some stuff om my incomming XV8s, since I don't have them here I have no idea how large magnet I have to get. Anyone have any idea? The smallest ones on waylandgames are 3mm diameter, is that too large? Supermagnete.de
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Jul 11, 2014 00:49
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Sistergodiva posted:I'm going to magnetise some stuff om my incomming XV8s, since I don't have them here I have no idea how large magnet I have to get. Anyone have any idea? The smallest ones on waylandgames are 3mm diameter, is that too large? Long time magnet advocate, 3mm x 2mm neodymium magnets are the way to go.
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Jul 11, 2014 00:55
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BULBASAUR posted:True LOS and vehicles- how does it work? I'm pretty sure you fire at the facing you see the most of, or you do that thing where you extend the corners out and see which facing the shooter is in. I'm not sure about the window thing, I'll check when I get home.
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Jul 11, 2014 01:00
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Of Course that's the one size that german store hasn't got in stock at the moment lol. Thanks though! Do you think the 3x1mm waylandgames has are too thin?
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Jul 11, 2014 01:01
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:I'm pretty sure you fire at the facing you see the most of, or you do that thing where you extend the corners out and see which facing the shooter is in. That's what I still have in my head- extend the corners out and see where the fire is coming from, but last time I did it people looked at me like I was from another planet (I am from Eastern Europe, not another planet)
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Jul 11, 2014 01:08
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I'm glad that we've all come to the conclusion that Epic 40k is the objectively superior game that everyone should play 6mm 40k for life
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Jul 11, 2014 01:19
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All right, I have just finished painting my first Tau model and the remainder of my stuff should arrive next week. I am not quite sure what I should try and round things up with, and could use some input. Currently I have: 1 Cadre Fire blade 1 Ethereal 36 Fire warriors 3 Crisis Suits 2 Riptides 10 Pathfinders 3 Broadsides It is a bit short of the 1500 points I was aiming for, and I am considering either some Kroots or a Hammerhead, perhaps a Devilfish. I guess an Aegis would not be bad either. Suggestions would be appreciated. Currently I am pretty scared of heavy armour. Could also post some pictures tomorrow in case anyone is interested in seeing amateur paint jobs.
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Jul 11, 2014 01:23
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Overwatch is loving dumb and it needs to be changed, that's the only thing that is really stupid in regards to assaults. If they'd change it so you have to declare during your previous turn but instead got a bonus that would be better.
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Jul 11, 2014 01:26
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SRM posted:And a player defending against an assault can also use cover (as not all units have grenades or move through cover) and avoid the sides of the table. If I know my opponent has outflankers, I'm going to try and watch my sides. That's just good tactics, and as intrinsic as picking good fire lanes or using line of sight blocking cover. This is my fourth edition of 40k, and the only assault-based rule I've found strictly overpowered in all this time has been consolidating into assaults after winning one. Everything else has been pretty on the level or a bit underpowered. So loving true. My favorite memory is a single Plague Champion of mine beating down an entire command squad of White Scars bikers, finally chasing the Captain off the board over the course of an entire game
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Jul 11, 2014 01:55
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DJ Dizzy posted:
I'm running Genestealers.
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Jul 11, 2014 02:07
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Ratflinger posted:All right, I have just finished painting my first Tau model and the remainder of my stuff should arrive next week. I am not quite sure what I should try and round things up with, and could use some input. I'm a fan of the Sun Shark Bomber, and wholly believe that it's underrated. So if you're at all considering a flyer, there's always that. With all those Fire Warriors, a Devilfish or 2 couldn't hurt though. I've pretty much never had a Devilfish perform poorly.
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Jul 11, 2014 02:17
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More Crisis suits. You always need more Crisis suits. I really like Crisis suits.
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Jul 11, 2014 02:41
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DO IT TO IT posted:I'm a fan of the Sun Shark Bomber, and wholly believe that it's underrated. So if you're at all considering a flyer, there's always that. With all those Fire Warriors, a Devilfish or 2 couldn't hurt though. I've pretty much never had a Devilfish perform poorly. Sun Shark got nerfed in 7th - The Drones can only snapfire at ground targets now.
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Jul 11, 2014 02:55
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Esser-Z posted:More Crisis suits. You always need more Crisis suits. Look into your heart, you know this to be true.
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Jul 11, 2014 02:56
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Sistergodiva posted:I'm going to magnetise some stuff om my incomming XV8s, since I don't have them here I have no idea how large magnet I have to get. Anyone have any idea? The smallest ones on waylandgames are 3mm diameter, is that too large? 2mm disc or cylinder magnets work quite well- you could even potentially get away with 1mm cylinders, since Crisis weapons are so small. There are tons of Ebay retailers you can use, and I've also ordered from Amazingmagnets.com in the past with good success. BULBASAUR posted:True LOS and vehicles- how does it work? You normally always hit the facing whose arc your models are in- however, if you are in one arc (say, the front) and due to obscurement you can only see parts of the vehicle that are in another arc (such as the side), you can take the shot against the side arc but with the enemy getting a +1 to their cover save. However, remember that turrets, etc, count for calculating arcs, so this will almost never be the case. Ratflinger posted:All right, I have just finished painting my first Tau model and the remainder of my stuff should arrive next week. I am not quite sure what I should try and round things up with, and could use some input. So you've got a pretty good start of an army there right now; I can't speak to how your various battlesuits are outfitted, but there's certainly good potential in everything. However, I would be very worried about all those Fire Warriors on foot- and for that reason I would probably aim to get a pair of Devilfish as your next inclusions. Devilfish are extremely good at protecting your little blue mans until it is time for them to spill out and vaporize something, and they are also a great way to keep an Ethereal safe because all of their abilities work from inside the transport- no need to get out and get shot. Add Disruption Pods to the Devilfish and suddenly you're looking at a 3+ save whenever you feel like it- and the models inside aren't even affected when you Jink, so you can still hope out and blast someone to death with volleys of Pulse fire. Some more Crisis or a Hammerhead/Skyray would not be bad inclusions to go for after that, but I think I would definitely get the transports first. And hey, they've got Objective Secured, too! raverrn posted:Sun Shark got nerfed in 7th - The Drones can only snapfire at ground targets now. Yeah. It is almost impossible to get any use from the Blast mode on their guns now.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:07
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Edit: wrong thread
Tuxedo Jack fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 03:55
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raverrn posted:Sun Shark got nerfed in 7th - The Drones can only snapfire at ground targets now. Even if they disembark on the first 6" of the Bomber's move?
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Jul 11, 2014 04:05
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DO IT TO IT posted:Even if they disembark on the first 6" of the Bomber's move? They have Skyfire. They do it all the time. :/
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Jul 11, 2014 04:11
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Thank you for the input. I tried to fiddle a bit with the list and get two Devilfish in there at 1500, and by cutting 14 fire warriors and a pathfinder, I get both kitted with disruption pods and smart missile systems, as well as a fireblade and transports for both troop squads. The suits run twin linked plasma and a fusion blaster. The riptides run IA, twin-linked fusion blasters, velocity trackers and early warning override. I am a little concerned that there are too few wounds around, but on the other hand the fire warrior units get AV 12 rides and higher leadership. It seems like a pretty good way to expand the list and will probably be what I spring for. It does give them a way to run around the field taking objectives though, rather than slogging by foot. Fire warriors look to have good damage output, but man do they seem squishy next to my immortals. Ratflinger fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 05:10
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