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Sulecrist posted:One thing I'd much rather see than 41k is a series (maybe by one author) about how the Imperial Creed first grew. Not so much the Age of Apostasy/Thor/Vandire stuff, more the early ritualization, maybe from the perspective of someone unusually long-lived with a dog in the fight. It's such a lore clusterfuck of "was written to fill space in codex", "in books that have been retconned", "historical events named more for lol history jokes then for plot(i.e Kurze being killed by M'Shen)" that I'd rather they not bother with anything sweeping or grand like that. Look at how the Horus Heresy is turning out. They didn't really need 25+ books to cover it, but once the $$$ rolled in all pretensions of lore and world-building went out the window and they greenlit dozens of books, most by lovely authors, to fill in the blanks with even more contradictions.
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Jul 10, 2014 17:48
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There are a lot of stories to tell in the Heresy. Yes, they could not tell some of them, but they're not losing anything by doing so.
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Jul 10, 2014 18:11
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UberJumper posted:Sigh fluff that like actually adds a lot of depth to his character and explains his actions in Thousand Sons, and Scars. Yet unless you bought that super limited edition HH art book you never know that. The guy on the cover seems to be similar to the rendition of Lorgar from the second Forge World book.  Its actually got some pretty amazing art.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:20
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Sulecrist posted:One thing I'd much rather see than 41k is a series (maybe by one author) about how the Imperial Creed first grew. Not so much the Age of Apostasy/Thor/Vandire stuff, more the early ritualization, maybe from the perspective of someone unusually long-lived with a dog in the fight. Well Cyrene is a perpetual now so she would be the POV, but the isn't a similar kind of role for her like there is Abaddon and his followers. "I've been stuck in literal hell for 10,000 years, this is how I tried to escape" provides room for a character arc, the story from the POV of a perpetual would be "I became who I was over the course of a lifetime, now I am dictating this for the official record" You can still tell a story with that, but it is much more difficult to make the character interesting when they aren't changing. I've always thought we needed a focus on the Unification Wars and Great Crusade. I understand why a series called "the Horus heresy" launched straight into the heresy, but without seeing how things were you can't appreciate what was lost.
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Jul 10, 2014 22:10
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They might eventually get to it. Since they have no intention of going into 42K they have 10 thousand years before the 40K period and will probably eventually do the Unification Wars and maybe even things from long before that.
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Jul 10, 2014 22:44
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Battle of the Fang takes place in only M32, which is fairly early on. I think right now it's safe to say that everything after the last primarchs disappearing/dying/being mortally wounded is fair game, and everything before that will eventually show up in the heresy series, given another two decades of filling in the series with poo poo no one cares about.
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Jul 10, 2014 22:57
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GW will probably be bankrupt before they get a chance to do another spin-off series besides the Horus Heresy.
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Jul 11, 2014 00:05
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Finished the Ciaphas Cain omnibus and gotta say I enjoyed what they did with the setting, after listening to the first 3 books of the Heresy it was a nice change. Jurgen is also my new favourite side-character in the BL, his ability to go completely unfazed constantly was good for a laugh. Knocked out Salvations Reach as well, which was standard Abnett fair and enjoyable, Gaunt's son could have been introduced worse. Though I did find myself wishing for a bit more action before the boarding, hoping The Warmaster scratches that itch with something along the lines of Vervunhive. If I'm looking for other bl authors who aren't complete poo poo ADB wouldn't be the worst choice from what I've read right?
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Jul 11, 2014 00:11
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ADB might be better than Abnett.
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Jul 11, 2014 00:34
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I don't think I've seen anyone complaining about one of ADB's books after having read this entire thread. I might've missed it..but yeah, I've seen nothing but praise and wishing he was headlining various legions rather than others. eg. Dark Angels.
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Jul 11, 2014 00:42
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Yeah he seems to get the most praise from goons, just wanted to confirm I hadn't missed a "Vulcan Lives" shitstorm under his watch. With Abnett winding down on his output I just want someone who doesn't write generic bolter porn, which sadly seems to be a good chunk of BL staff. Maybe I'll give Helsreach a go
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Jul 11, 2014 01:12
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Helsreach is fantastic and i will recommend it everytime.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:38
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boredsatellite posted:Helsreach is fantastic and i will recommend it everytime. Helsreach is the best Salamanders book so far. Also the sequel is pretty good.
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Jul 11, 2014 04:15
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Kegslayer posted:Helsreach is the best Salamanders book so far. Also the sequel is pretty good. Its the Black Templars descended from Dorns Imperial Fists unless im getting wooshed on a joke here than please ignore
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Jul 11, 2014 04:34
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The Salamanders feature heavily about mid-book. It's a Nick Kyme joke.
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Jul 11, 2014 04:56
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Waroduce posted:Its the Black Templars descended from Dorns Imperial Fists unless im getting wooshed on a joke here than please ignore Middle third is about the Black Templar fighting alongside the Salamanders. It isn't Salamander focused, but they get some decent fleshing out for what is essentially a cameo.
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Jul 11, 2014 04:57
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Vadoc posted:I don't think I've seen anyone complaining about one of ADB's books after having read this entire thread. I might've missed it..but yeah, I've seen nothing but praise and wishing he was headlining various legions rather than others. eg. Dark Angels. Well Cadian Blood isn't bad, but I wouldn't recommend it either. It is pretty lackluster. Then again, it was his first novel, and he has most certainly stepped up his game since. Some people over at Warseer and Bolter & Chainsword hate him. Not because they have any criticism of his prose, plotting, characterization, world building, etc, but because they think he is down on their chapter of choice (particularly Space Wolf fanboys). Which just blows my mind. Ok sure, the Wolves may not have been clear unequivocal victors, but I don't see how you can read Betrayer or The Emperor's Gift and not come away thinking they are a bunch of badasses. I mean Logan kills the leader of the Grey Knights before anyone else can react, they set a trap and force a surrender of two chapters of marines and an inquisition task force, and they save billions of lives, but because they took heavy losses (by choice!) trying to do the right thing this is bashing the chapter? Those people are idiots, ADB is a drat good writer.
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Jul 11, 2014 05:13
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I'm curious as to how Emperor's Gift would have turned out if ADB didn't have to rewrite part of the way through.
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Jul 11, 2014 05:55
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Lincoln`s Wax posted:I'm curious as to how Emperor's Gift would have turned out if ADB didn't have to rewrite part of the way through. Hopefully a second book. So we could have had more of Hyperions glorious and goony interactions with Annieka's team. I still cannot get the mental image of Hyperion mentally peeking on Annieka when she is banging her chaos cultist out of my head. Shadowhand00 posted:The guy on the cover seems to be similar to the rendition of Lorgar from the second Forge World book. 40k has some amazing art. Sadly i really dislike the new style of 3d models instead of the hand-drawn stuff.
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Jul 11, 2014 06:23
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I'm looking forward to hopefully a trilogy in the future with Annieka in it. She my new favourite Inquisitor after Eisenhorn and Ravenor. I also had no idea that their world that so unstable that islands kept forming and disappearing over a matter of decades. I knew it was basically a Deathworld, but I thought it was from the weather and those massive sea-krakens or whatever again that they'd hunt in the waters. Vadoc fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 06:35
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Lincoln`s Wax posted:I'm curious as to how Emperor's Gift would have turned out if ADB didn't have to rewrite part of the way through. What was the story behind this?
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Jul 11, 2014 07:00
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JerryLee posted:What was the story behind this? From memory, ADB posted a veiled blog message about having to rewrite half the book because Ward took a big poo poo over the existing fluff when he wrote the codex. I think it was originally more about the war for Armageddon than what happened after so arguably we got a better story?
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Jul 11, 2014 07:55
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Yeah I really loved how the book covered the aftermath of it. My love for the Space Wolves increased so much and the way the story was told was great. Still kinda want a book going over the war itself
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Jul 11, 2014 08:31
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MasterSlowPoke posted:ADB might be better than Abnett. There's no comparison. Abnett is certainty a competent writer who produces a good story, but ADB creates living breathing characters that ooze with detail and complexities in a chaotic world that barely makes sense. Night Lords should've been up for a Hugo award, but since it dwelt in the same literary dungeon as books by Kyme, Goto, and Zou it gets dismissed as another 40k novel tie in.
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Jul 11, 2014 09:45
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You know you can vote for them to get in yourself, right? Next year we can organise a goon voting chain to get the best 40k release in if you're that bothered by it.
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Jul 11, 2014 18:09
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TryAgainBragg posted:Finished the Ciaphas Cain omnibus and gotta say I enjoyed what they did with the setting, after listening to the first 3 books of the Heresy it was a nice change. Jurgen is also my new favourite side-character in the BL, his ability to go completely unfazed constantly was good for a laugh. Knocked out Salvations Reach as well, which was standard Abnett fair and enjoyable, Gaunt's son could have been introduced worse. Though I did find myself wishing for a bit more action before the boarding, hoping The Warmaster scratches that itch with something along the lines of Vervunhive. If I'm looking for other bl authors who aren't complete poo poo ADB wouldn't be the worst choice from what I've read right? MasterSlowPoke posted:ADB might be better than Abnett. Fried Chicken posted:Well Cadian Blood isn't bad, but I wouldn't recommend it either. It is pretty lackluster. Then again, it was his first novel, and he has most certainly stepped up his game since.
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Jul 11, 2014 18:18
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UberJumper posted:Hopefully a second book. So we could have had more of Hyperions glorious and goony interactions with Annieka's team. I still cannot get the mental image of Hyperion mentally peeking on Annieka when she is banging her chaos cultist out of my head. 3d was a flash in the pan a few years ago, Neil Roberts has been doing their covers and art for a while now. Guy is great at it too.
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Jul 11, 2014 21:49
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SRM posted:
I'd say it's a moving target. I think Abnetts earlier stuff was better than ADB. Currently, ADB is better
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Jul 11, 2014 23:16
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Dyscrasia posted:I'd say it's a moving target. I think Abnetts earlier stuff was better than ADB. Currently, ADB is better
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Jul 11, 2014 23:22
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I've read bits and pieces of the Night Lords trilogy here and there but didn't own it, so when I was looked at the shelves today and was deciding between Unremembered Empire and the NL omni, I went with ADB.
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Jul 12, 2014 09:57
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You made the best choice
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Jul 12, 2014 11:35
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Just finished Angel Exterminatus, and I have to ask: am I the only one getting tired of the Emperor's Children in general and Fulgrim in particular? I found Fulgrim an interesting enough book, but I find them pretty boring now that they're in full Chaos Space Marine mode and we all know perfectly well that no one's going to kill Fabius Bile and that Lucius won't stay down long. Fulgrim also has an irritating habit of seeming to win every campaign and every battle he's involved in in the series, even after by all indications he fails in this book. The Iron Warriors? Interesting, and Perturabo doubly so. He feels like another example of a primarch forced into the arms of Chaos because at his heart he doesn't want to be a warrior but the Emperor demands that he be one nevertheless. There aren't many of the traitor primarchs I actually feel bad for from the Heresy books, but Perturabo is definitely one of them.
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Jul 12, 2014 14:06
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I sort of liked Fulgrim at first in Angel Exterminatus, as his flamboyant showmanship and circus of aberrations was a nice contrast to the whole astartes schtick. The other Empeor's Children were really annoying, and the loyalists even more so. Perturabo and his legion deserve a book fleshing them out and making them awesome. This wasn't it.
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Jul 12, 2014 21:30
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The problem is it's difficult to create honest tension in a timeline where we know 90 percent of what happens. I get kind of tired of reading people trying to find unique ways to show how ostentatious the Children have become when it seems like half the Legions barely receive any literary attention. gently caress, I don't care, make up more poo poo for the Space Wolves to do. Give me an anthology of the squads who were sent to watch the Primarchs, I'm just tired of reading various ways of 'we sure do like weird poo poo here in the Emperor's Children!'
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Jul 13, 2014 02:19
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I think that Emperor's Children occur so often because they're the only space marines that have truly "fallen", going out and indulging themselves in sick poo poo. Everybody else is just there because Horus rebelled and the Primarchs that never wanted to be warriors followed him.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:33
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Angel Exterminatus was the first book I'd read that really featured post-bonkers Emperor's Children, and I thought it was actually really cool to read about how nuts they were. The traveling circus of excess made them contrast from the Iron Warriors really strongly, but I wish the Iron Warriors got more characterization. The loyalists were okay - I liked the Raven Guard guy even though he seemed kind of Mary Sue-ish, but the ~wacky~ techmarine kinda got on my nerves. I dunno, I still liked the book, but it's not my favorite book in the Heresy or anything.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:36
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Personally I read the Horus Heresy for a story about good people being broken by bad times. I would agree with you that ADB is better than Abnett, but Pariah was SO good, even if it ended too abruptly. Seriously, go back and read it again, slowly. It's legitimately beautiful at times, and horrifying at others.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:39
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UberJumper posted:Hopefully a second book. So we could have had more of Hyperions glorious and goony interactions with Annieka's team. I still cannot get the mental image of Hyperion mentally peeking on Annieka when she is banging her chaos cultist out of my head. they told us Space Marines had no sex drive, but it turns out they're just really terrible at chicks
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Jul 13, 2014 03:07
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:The problem is it's difficult to create honest tension in a timeline where we know 90 percent of what happens. No, actually, its really easy. These legions comprise hundreds of thousands of individuals, with thousands of leaders, and hundreds of major figures. Use them as your spotlight characters, rather than ones we know are going to make it through. ADB at least gets that, he created the Gal Vorbak slate of characters and has been axing them as necessary for tension, plotting, and catharsis. Abnett did similarly with the Ultramarines in the attack on Calth - the first third he introduced a bunch of distinct characters, then the rest he killed them as needed. The rest of the authors, not so much, because even their similar slate of characters keep coming back from the dead rather than them moving on to new players (Loken, Torgadon, Grulgor, etc) and they focus on the ones we know are around and kicking 10,000 years hence (Erebus being everyone's go to to the point where he now did everything is a great example here). UberJumper posted:Hopefully a second book. So we could have had more of Hyperions glorious and goony interactions with Annieka's team. I still cannot get the mental image of Hyperion mentally peeking on Annieka when she is banging her chaos cultist out of my head. Monocled Falcon posted:I think that Emperor's Children occur so often because they're the only space marines that have truly "fallen", going out and indulging themselves in sick poo poo. Everybody else is just there because Horus rebelled and the Primarchs that never wanted to be warriors followed him. For a while I think the author group or BL was treating chaos corruption as something that results from touching a magic mcguffin or kneeling before Chancellor Palpatine. The instant you have the slightest contact with Chaos, you are now evil. And not only that, you now have the same command of your abilities and experience as you will have after using these powers for 10,000 years. Galaxy in Flames and Fulgrim are particularly bad in that regard. Horus has a bad dream, and now is quoting the Chaos Gods chapter and verse? The other traitor legions screaming about the eightfold path and 40k warcries and preaching chaos about 30 seconds after they decided to join the rebellion? That is extremely unsatisfying in a storytelling sense, even if you justify it in universe by claiming Chaos works the same as some bizarre misreading of born again theology. Fortunately I think they have caught on to that. Horus for example has been walked back to being in rebellion because that's who he is and what he wants and is now slowly being seduced. Despite what Galaxy In Flames showed then have since changed it up. The First Heretic has him not being exposed to the concepts of Chaos until after the Drop Site Massacre, Betrayer has him first experimenting with sorcery, Vengeful Spirit has him grasping more power, but it under his control, and Know No Fear showed a vision of him at Terra worlds away from what we have seen so far, where Chaos is basically running the show in his body. It sets him up for going into rebellion for very human and emotional reasons after a nudge from Chaos, and him falling into Chaos along the way as he grasps for more and more power. As to the legions, they are getting expanded upon (if clumsily; looking at you Vengeful Spirit re: Abaddon) but the EC it seems that Fulgrim was enough to explain them in full. But it really wasn't, and I wish they would do more flashback type books like The First Heretic to fill them and some of the other legions out more. I've had a fair amount of bourbon tonight, that's my opinion about space army mans shoot 'em up books. Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 06:06
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I just finished reading Abnett's Prospero Burns, and while Prospero doesn't actually burn much in the book, I'm a huge fan of how they turned what I considered to be corny wolverine marines into a darker and much more interesting Legion of executioners. Abnett is probably my favorite HH author, mainly because he approaches story telling from different angles, and I tend to think the HH comes across better when its an outsider looking in (Legion, Prospero Burns, Know no Fear). As far as the Word Bearer's have been treated (warning ~My Pet Legion alert~), I have to routinely grind my teeth when they're depicted as either a legion of emo space muslims, with newly acquired 'swarthy skin' of colchis and kohl-rimmed eyes or pure evil cannon fodder. If its not ADB's poor broken Argel Tal weeping over Cyrene, or Lorgar pulling tantrums, its waves of red armoured evil-marines being gunned down by Ventanus of the Ultramarines, Erebus being loving Erebus, and mustache twirling backstabbing at every opportunity (LEAVE THEM ALL TO DIE ON CALTH  ) with characters called literally 'Foedrel Fell'. I won't even go into the '400 word bearer's killed to zero ultramarine's' calth short story.There's a kind of acceptance that in a Word Bearer's vs Loyalist fight the former will always die to the latter in droves, since they're not really specialized in any way other than being good at reading the evil bible. The Mark of Calth book had a somewhat decent WordBearer in it but I have no idea how he survived the purge since all he does is hate on their new chaos fantasizing. In short, Erebus is the series' worst character, Ultramarines vs WordBearers promotes the worst kind of evil vs good storytelling, and there's something a little bit dodgy about making the evil religious legion straight up arabs in terms of ethnicity.
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Jul 14, 2014 03:59
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