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ImAMinister posted:Oh, well in the meantime here's some content. Make Coffee County deputies qualify on the pistol more often.
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Jul 13, 2014 01:06
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wateroverfire posted:Make Coffee County deputies qualify on the pistol more often.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:22
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So I've seen plenty of police apologists on this thread. I'm kind of curious how they'll react to something like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fmdAS_Z6CY
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Jul 13, 2014 02:34
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E-Tank posted:So I've seen plenty of police apologists on this thread. I'm kind of curious how they'll react to something like this. Sucks that dude's dog got shot. Giving officers better training in how to deal with animals seems like a good idea.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:54
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wateroverfire posted:Sucks that dude's dog got shot. Giving officers better training in how to deal with animals seems like a good idea. Yeah totally sucks. Too bad it's not an isolated incident. http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/04/30/cop-shoots-dog/ http://dogmurders.wordpress.com/ https://www.facebook.com/DogsShotbyPolice
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Jul 13, 2014 03:59
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E-Tank posted:Yeah totally sucks. Too bad it's not an isolated incident. Unless one officer has been serial killing dogs across multiple years and jurisdictions then yeah they're isolated incidents because all they have in common is that a cop and a dog are both involved. Maybe some of cops really hate dogs and take any opportunity to shoot them and then do the doggie murder equivalent of sprinkling crack on the body, idk. It seems more likely that when officers have to enter areas with a dog the dog often becomes aggressive, because they're territorial and protective, and gets shot because the shooter didn't feel like getting mauled that day. So we should train officers so that happens less, but sometimes it's going to happen and it's not a thing to get super outraged over.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:29
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That's just you declaring people shouldn't be offended by something though. There's no reason that police should get to shoot dogs any more than I should have gotten to when I was a canvasser.E-Tank posted:So I've seen plenty of police apologists on this thread. I'm kind of curious how they'll react to something like this. I saw that one. I enjoyed the contrast between the sheepishness of the two cops in the foreground and the bullethead in the background with folded arms like "I'm here in case you get unruly, civilian."
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Jul 13, 2014 04:33
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wateroverfire posted:Unless one officer has been serial killing dogs across multiple years and jurisdictions then yeah they're isolated incidents because all they have in common is that a cop and a dog are both involved. Wait what? This is a ridiculous qualifier. How many dogs or people for that matter, do cops have to shoot for you to be satisfied that there is a systemic overuse and excusing of violence in the police? quote:So we should train officers so that happens less, but sometimes it's going to happen and it's not a thing to get super outraged over. You don't get to decide what people should or shouldn't be outraged over.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:38
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War is just a series of isolated events. All it has in common is a dude in one uniform and a dude in a different uniform.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:39
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Berk Berkly posted:Wait what? This is a ridiculous qualifier. How many dogs or people for that matter, do cops have to shoot for you to be satisfied that there is a systemic overuse and excusing of violence in the police? IDK. I'm not as invested in hating the cops as a lot of people here so conflating a bunch of unrelated incidents doesn't seem appealing. Maybe it would have to be like half the dogs. edit: Half the dogs and 20% of the people. Berk Berkly posted:You don't get to decide what people should or shouldn't be outraged over. Being outraged over my opinion about what people should be outraged about is meta and dumb and you should probably stop doing things like that. SedanChair posted:That's just you declaring people shouldn't be offended by something though. There's no reason that police should get to shoot dogs any more than I should have gotten to when I was a canvasser Police interactions with dogs are definitely just like your interactions with them as a canvasser because
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Jul 13, 2014 04:52
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wateroverfire posted:Police interactions with dogs are definitely just like your interactions with them as a canvasser because Uh the burden of proof is actually on you as to why they're different.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:06
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Do you think that police should not shoot someone who has a gun pointed at them? Maybe that person just wants to hang out and have a good time, and pointing a gun at them is their way of communicating that? Well, it's the same with dogs. Maybe they want to come say hi and get petted, and maybe they're going straight for your jugular. Unless you think cops are suicidally altruistic (LMAO), they have to err on the side of not getting killed.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:15
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wateroverfire posted:IDK. I'm not as invested in hating the cops as a lot of people here so conflating a bunch of unrelated incidents doesn't seem appealing. Maybe it would have to be like half the dogs. Really? "You just hate the cops" is your actual argument? And you are painfully abusing the word 'conflating' there I'm afraid. Police officer shoots dog and Different police officer shoots another dog are exactly disparate behaviors in the context of police violence. quote:Being outraged over my opinion about what people should be outraged about is meta and dumb and you should probably stop doing things like that. So you were just vacuously trolling then. Got it.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:17
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Dogs don't have guns
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Jul 13, 2014 05:17
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SedanChair posted:Uh the burden of proof is actually on you as to why they're different. Actually it's not because dude you're being ridiculous and anyway I'm sure you have a fine explanation of how leaving a leaflet on somebody's doorknob is the same as busting down the door and storming in to arrest them. Just hypothetically, as a canvasser you can drop your materials on the porch and leave. As a cop you don't really have that luxury in most situations.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:17
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SedanChair posted:Dogs don't have guns The dog has clamped on to your leg. While you're momentarily distracted, the suspect jumps out and shoots you. You're dead, because you didn't shoot the dog. That's why they shoot dogs. Hope this helps.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:19
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I'm pretty sure they actually do it because they're afraid the dog is going to bite them, period.Ableist Kinkshamer posted:The child has clamped on to your leg. The child's head swivels 180 degrees to look up at you and says "GET READY FOR A SURPRISE!" While you're momentarily distracted, the suspect jumps out and shoots you. You're dead, because you didn't shoot the child.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:22
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Berk Berkly posted:Really? "You just hate the cops" is your actual argument? What did you think your statement merited? Berk Berkly posted:Wait what? This is a ridiculous qualifier. How many dogs or people for that matter, do cops have to shoot for you to be satisfied that there is a systemic overuse and excusing of violence in the police? There's nothing in this statement except that you think the cops systematically overuse force and that it's too often excused. Which...ok, fine, sure, that's a way to feel. There's nothing to argue with, though. It's just chest thumping about how you, too, dislike the police.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:26
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SedanChair posted:I'm pretty sure they actually do it because they're afraid the dog is going to bite them, period. Probably. Being bitten by a dog sucks and a big dog could legit maim a guy.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:33
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SedanChair posted:I'm pretty sure they actually do it because they're afraid the dog is going to bite them, period. If that were at all a realistic situation and not your fever dream, I'm sure we'd see a lot more cops shooting kids with impunity.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:43
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wateroverfire posted:Just hypothetically, as a canvasser you can drop your materials on the porch and leave. As a cop you don't really have that luxury in most situations.
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Jul 13, 2014 06:03
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:If that were at all a realistic situation and not your fever dream, I'm sure we'd see a lot more cops shooting kids with impunity. Ah, OK. Can you give me an example of a time when an MS-13 hitman used his Roman war molosser to pin down and execute a cop? Or anything resembling the scenario you outlined?
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Jul 13, 2014 06:08
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wateroverfire posted:What did you think your statement merited? This is the Police Reform thread, and and I'm specifically pointing out your asinine denial, despite your best efforts to shift and shrug off the burden of your own position, that these were isolated incidents and no one should really be upset over them. Have we come full circle with you now retracting your position? Because it looks like you are both trying to backpedal under the cover of some weakly tossed strawmen as cover. Berk Berkly fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 06:25
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Wonder why people came up with the phrase "You don't shoot a dog for barking." I mean, cops have pepper spray and tasers and hard blunt objects to strike with, but I guess that's just too drat hard to do.
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Jul 13, 2014 06:34
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paragon1 posted:Wonder why people came up with the phrase "You don't shoot a dog for barking."
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Jul 13, 2014 06:35
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Seriously, if a dog was coming at me and I had a gun and an ASP baton on my belt, I'd go for the baton.
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Jul 13, 2014 06:36
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SedanChair posted:Ah, OK. Can you give me an example of a time when an MS-13 hitman used his Roman war molosser to pin down and execute a cop? It's hard to when the standard operating procedure seems to be "when in doubt, shoot the dog". Cops do terrible poo poo sometimes (as do many non-cops with guns), but it's really silly to fixate on them shooting dogs when there's a clear rational reason why they do it that you're blinded to by emotion.
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Jul 13, 2014 06:50
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:It's hard to when the standard operating procedure seems to be "when in doubt, shoot the dog". So the lack of dog/perp combo-kill examples is because police always pre-emptively shoot the dog? Maybe I'm too emotional to process your argument correctly, does that about sum it up?
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Jul 13, 2014 06:53
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SedanChair posted:So the lack of dog/perp combo-kill examples is because police always pre-emptively shoot the dog? Maybe I'm too emotional to process your argument correctly, does that about sum it up? That sums it up perfectly. Cops pretty much always shoot dogs if they aren't sure how it's going to behave, which prevents the thing it is intended to prevent from happening.
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Jul 13, 2014 06:56
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OK, so why shouldn't they just shoot kids the same way? The number of times a kid has pinned down a cop so their perpdad can kill 'em appears to be equal to the number of times a dog has done the same thing. You admit this.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:02
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SedanChair posted:OK, so why shouldn't they just shoot kids the same way? The number of times a kid has pinned down a cop so their perpdad can kill 'em appears to be equal to the number of times a dog has done the same thing. You admit this. Because kids aren't dogs and you know that's an inane comparison?
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Jul 13, 2014 07:05
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But why is it not an inane comparison to compare dogs to killer cop-distracting warhounds when you can't provide any evidence of their danger?
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Jul 13, 2014 07:13
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SedanChair posted:But why is it not an inane comparison to compare dogs to killer cop-distracting warhounds when you can't provide any evidence of their danger? It's not an inane comparison because cops are human beings and can't distinguish your adorable pit bull best friend from a trained attack dog in a split second, and they need to err on the side of not getting killed. Sorry that this is so hard for you to understand.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:21
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You're basically asking me to prove that weed killer kills weeds, when I don't have any weeds in my yard and have sprayed it with weed killer. Well, since the weed killer killed the weed before they could grow, it's hard to show you an example in my yard of a weed that has been killed by it.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:23
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Well poo poo guys, I guess we're just lucky the de facto procedure was never that cops just shoot harlots on-sight. If so, they could shoot all women dead and they would never need to reevaluate this procedure because we haven't seen any recent examples of loose women luring cops into booby traps so it must be a proper procedure.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:26
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:It's not an inane comparison because cops are human beings and can't distinguish your adorable pit bull best friend from a trained attack dog in a split second, and they need to err on the side of not getting killed. Sorry that this is so hard for you to understand. Can they distinguish an innocent person from one who's about to attack them? Should they be expected to or can they just put two into everyone they run across?
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Jul 13, 2014 07:26
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The problem seems to be that police in general has this can-do attitude where they consider themselves a one man army that can resolve any situation. What instead happens is that they're often woefully unprepared and immediately resort to violence when faced with a problem. "Dog barking the back of yard? Animal control? What's that? Trained professionals accustomed to dealing with this kind of thing? I don't need them, I'll go in with my gun." I mean what the gently caress. The flash bang incident earlier was exactly the same only with more guns involved. "If we know the perp is in the building? gently caress off man we don't do surveillance. We have grenades and assault rifles and that's all we need. What's the worst that could happen?" And for that matter what exactly had the 19-year old the deputy was chasing earlier actually done? The article doesn't even mention it. Was his crimes really that severe that the officer couldn't simply retreat and find another route when confronted by the dog in a backyard he knew nothing about? The 10 year old got loving shot because he wouldn't even consider just letting the perp run. The reason this pisses me off is because we've had an increase in the police officer homicides in my country. It used to be between 0-2 yearly nationally, this year we're up to 8 and last it was 5. In almost every single incident some loving nutjob officer decides that the only way to deal with the drugged up guy screaming from his apartment armed with a knife is sending in 3 officers with their guns. Waiting him out? Impossible. Going in with knife vests, riot shields, batons and going medieval on his rear end? Nope. 3 officers in standard gear with guns loaded is the best that they could come up with. Then the procedure basically goes like this. 1. They tear gas the guy and demand a surrender. 2. They flashbang the guy and demand a surrender. 3. The fire a warning shot while demanding a surrender. (this is the part where the perp usually goes into flight or fight mode and rushes the officers) 4. They shoot and since the police use hollow-point bullets (  ) the guy is usually dead within the hour.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:27
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SedanChair posted:Can they distinguish an innocent person from one who's about to attack them? Should they be expected to or can they just put two into everyone they run across? Well, maybe the guy pointing a gun at them means no harm and just wants to say hi. They can't take the risk that they're wrong, so they shoot him. If a dog is running at them, it's the same deal. They can't take the risk that the dog is friendly because it probably isn't, given how territorial and defensive dogs are, so they have to treat it like a guy pointing a gun at them.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:30
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People who take the risk that the dog running at them isn't a killer warbeast: literally everyone not in an active combat zone. I mean it's really not hard to tell pretty drat quickly what a dog intends to do. They aren't unknowable beasts from the beyond for fucks sake. paragon1 fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 07:40
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Xoidanor posted:4. They shoot and since the police use hollow-point bullets ( Well, better to use JHP rounds than have ball rounds zipping through the walls. But yeah that's the pattern of escalation. However in the US warning shots are a big no-no, shooting is deadly force period.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:45
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