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Ogmius815 posted:No. People were literally saying that wanting to do a risk-reward comparison made me anti-science. That's loving retarded. You were presented with your bare minimum of evidence and hand waived it away with some CDC conspiracy about wanting to keep smallpox for reasons. The potential to cure diabetes or lupus or arthritis or any loving autoimmune disorder is a wonderful benefit.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:13
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Yarbald posted:The potential to cure diabetes or lupus or arthritis or any loving autoimmune disorder is a wonderful benefit. Yes if that's plausible, I agree. But you have to say that. that's the part that makes the argument work. People were literally going "I don't have to say how smallpox can be useful, it's  . Why do you hate science?
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Jul 13, 2014 04:14
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Ogmius815 posted:Hey guys the CDC says they should get to keep their toys. Better drop everything. I work for a bio-mimicry nonprofit. Biomimicry is cool. It is basically looking at how some natural process or substance works, and then applying it in a useful manner. Biomimicry can be as 'simple' as looking at the way a termite mound regulates temperature and using that to inform building in areas where heat regulation is important, or as complex as looking at the complex proteins that make mussels adhere to rocks and synthesising something similar. The complexity and interconnectedness of evolved methods and structures makes them an incredibly rich area for this, but we've only begun to scratch the surface. It's only recently, with high amounts of computing power and ever-increasing microscopy ability that we've really started delving into the small-scale stuff, with an emphasis on 'started'. We are not currently at the state where we can take a 'snapshot' of anything, and certainly not record perfectly the activity of an organism. We don't even understand the biological mechanism of action of many molecular cell processes. Any scientist saying we understand an organism completely, or that an analysis of the organism allows us full information about it by proxy, is only being accurate in so far as our currently level of technology goes. For the claim that we can simply create the virus anew from scratch, we do not have a perfect knowledge of the techniques necessary to do that: we can't be sure that what we create is 100% similar to the naturally-occurring thing, even if it resembles it in all the ways we can currently test for. Your reaction to smallpox is outsizedly fearful; there are tons of diseases out there that are not eradicated, that present a far greater threat. A smallpox outbreak could be quickly contained. The risk is not 'zero', but it would round down to zero for quite a large number of significant digits, and the actual number of deaths caused by it would be small. There are far more things to worry about. Also, the hydrogen bomb was an engineering solution based on scientific discoveries. We definitely should have done the scientific research on atomic principles that allowed the engineering of the hydrogen bomb; whether we should have engineered it is a completely different question.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:15
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Ogmius815 posted:Yes if that's plausible, I agree. But you have to say that. that's the part that makes the argument work. People were literally going "I don't have to say how smallpox can be useful, it's Oh, look what I found: E-Tank posted:It says that there's an ability to alter the immune response of its human host. That could be used. That could be used to do untold things. That could be used to alter the immune response of people suffering from Rheumatoid Arthritis. Suffering from pain due to the immune system attacking the joints. Which you conveniently ignored.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:16
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Ogmius815 posted:Yes if that's plausible, I agree. But you have to say that. that's the part that makes the argument work. People were literally going "I don't have to say how smallpox can be useful, it's We had *said* that. We literally pointed you to it days ago. What it did. That it could alter the immune system. AND YOU loving IGNORED IT YOU loving IDIOTIC PIECE OF poo poo. You told us that it was a conspiracy by the CDC to keep their 'toys'. You said this because you are an idiot who cannot reasonably contend with the idea that you might be loving wrong. It's not possible that your statements are founded in fear and stupidity, you're so smart it has to be a loving conspiracy. Congratulations, you're on the mental level of people who think the government was behind 9/11, or the jews control everything, or that lizards from space are in charge of the world. Take your pick.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:19
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I still can't get over your shock that people are calling you anti-science. You are saying that Alexander Fleming shouldn't have discovered Penicillin because mold is bad, he should've just throw it away.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:20
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You all literally said that you didn't have to justify research because science is just always good. You all said that. You are all idiots for saying that. Sorry.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:22
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Ogmius815 posted:You all literally said that you didn't have to justify research because science is just always good. You all said that. You are all idiots for saying that. Sorry. Knowledge is good. Research is good. You ultimately choose what to do with the research. You can make an atomic bomb with what we know. Or we can harness the energy released for power. Science is not bad, what people do with it can be.  you idiotic piece of poo poo, the adults are speaking here.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:22
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It's also funny that there have been more than one case of smallpox samples literally just lying around and people still not getting infected. Like just recently in an old warehouse in Maryland, or in 2004 when envelopes full of smallpox scabs (which can be infectious) were found in some random office. But no, clearly the actual contained system will cause the death outbreak! Ogmius815 posted:You all literally said that you didn't have to justify research because science is just always good. You all said that. You are all idiots for saying that. Sorry. Smallpox research is in fact always good.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:23
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Please provide an example of knowledge that makes the world a worse place. NB: The moment you build anything it's not just knowledge.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:24
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Praseodymi posted:I still can't get over your shock that people are calling you anti-science. You are saying that Alexander Fleming shouldn't have discovered Penicillin because mold is bad, he should've just throw it away. That isn't a logical conclusion of my reasoning. Doing research on mold doesn't carry comparable risk, so gently caress it. Do whatever research you want. But don't do research on dangerous pathogens if you can't explain why you are doing it. That's what you were defending in this thread, doing research even when you can't explain why you are doing it even if there is significant risk. Sorry your mind is too small to understand that nuance and that everyone either has to say all research is permissible or only research that can lead to specific benefits is permissible.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:25
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Ogmius815 posted:You all literally said that you didn't have to justify research because science is just always good. You all said that. You are all idiots for saying that. Sorry. We all LITERALLY posted examples of how smallpox research can be beneficial and you glossed over it because it's inconvenient for your position.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:25
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Ogmius815 posted:That isn't a logical conclusion of my reasoning. There is no logical conclusion to your reasoning in any form, because your reasoning is not logical. Praseodymi posted:Please provide an example of knowledge that makes the world a worse place. I don't know man there's some pictures I've seen that I'd rather neither me nor anyone else ever saw.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:27
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Yarbald posted:We all LITERALLY posted examples of how smallpox research can be beneficial and you glossed over it because it's inconvenient for your position. Even if that's the case (and it isn't, E-Tank's recent post is the first I've seen anyone in this thread provide any explanation), you all still said that it didn't matter because you didn't need to provide that explanation. You do.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:27
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OGMIUS' IDIOTIC ARGUMENT begins to shudder and clank, throwing off bolts and pieces of scrap metal. Everyone breathes a sigh of relief. The huge, ramshackle apparatus crashes to the ground with a massive, echoing "I'll concede I don't know enough to say either way." EVERYONE: Whew. gently caress! Just then, the entry hatch of OGMIUS' IDIOTIC ARGUMENT stirs and pops open. To everyone's horror, the squelching, organic form of OGMIUS' META-ARGUMENT lurches out and spreads its membranous, veined wings. OGMIUS' META-ARGUMENT: [flies into air, hissing] You think you've defeated meeeeeeeeee!?
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Jul 13, 2014 04:28
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Ogmius815 posted:You all literally said that you didn't have to justify research because science is just always good. You all said that. You are all idiots for saying that. Sorry. I didn't say that, no. A lot of other people didn't say that, either. Research should be ethical, but it doesn't have to be purposeful. Here's an easy answer for you: Smallpox has a bunch of lateral bodies in its extracellular state. We have no idea what these bodies do. The reason nobody is researching it now is we don't have any new tools, or new methods, or new theories to approach that question. That doesn't mean we never will. So there is a simple, straightforward answer of why to keep it around: In order to study those lateral bodies. The alternative to keeping it around would be perfecting replication of it. As I said, we can't really know if we've 'perfected' it, but even if we did just perfect it to our current understanding of it, then instead of physical smallpox, we'd have a protocol by which any sufficiently equipped lab could replicate smallpox. Does that sound like a good alternative, and if so, why?
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Jul 13, 2014 04:28
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Ogmius815 posted:Even if that's the case (and it isn't, E-Tank's recent post is the first I've seen anyone in this thread provide any explanation), you all still said that it didn't matter because you didn't need to provide that explanation. Which is true, a forum full of amateurs does not need to research advanced virology to point out that the scientists actually researching smallpox already know why researching smallpox is useful.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:28
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Ogmius815 posted:That isn't a logical conclusion of my reasoning. Doing research on mold doesn't carry comparable risk, so gently caress it. Do whatever research you want. But don't do research on dangerous pathogens if you can't explain why you are doing it. Many molds are incredibly dangerous pathogens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenic_fungus I think that your level of scientific education might be somewhat lacking.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:29
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Ogmius815 posted:Even if that's the case (and it isn't, E-Tank's recent post is the first I've seen anyone in this thread provide any explanation), you all still said that it didn't matter because you didn't need to provide that explanation. You do. ...we did?
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Jul 13, 2014 04:30
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Nintendo Kid posted:Which is true, a forum full of amateurs does not need to research advanced virology to point out that the scientists actually researching smallpox already know why researching smallpox is useful. That doesn't follow. You want to talk logical fallacies, that's a big one. I can find other experts who say we should destroy smallpox. Woo hoo.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:30
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Ogmius815 posted:Even if that's the case (and it isn't, E-Tank's recent post is the first I've seen anyone in this thread provide any explanation), you all still said that it didn't matter because you didn't need to provide that explanation. You do. Well I'm sorry, I guess I assumed I wasn't talking to an idiot when I linked you to something saying that it can loving ALTER THE IMMUNE SYSTEM. And even then you had to be shamed into it because you were so nakedly moving the goal posts you almost dropped it on your dick flapping in the wind.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:30
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Yarbald posted:...we did? Several people did.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:30
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Furthermore, it seems like exposure to any pathogen could alter the immune system. That's kind of how the immune system works. It's not clear to me why variola is special. I'm not even sure your explanations are worth anything, I just don't have the expert knowledge to say.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:32
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Yarbald posted:...we did? He's willfully misinterpreting how we were saying that scientists say that there are some benefit to keeping it, therefore we, people who aren't loving scientists, shouldn't have to explain it. And even then, research by itself is not horrible, it's what is done with said research that can be horrible. Ogmius815 posted:I just don't have the expert knowledge to say. Its almost like we should trust the experts on this. Like we've been saying. This entire loving time. 
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Jul 13, 2014 04:32
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Ogmius815 posted:Furthermore, it seems like exposure to any pathogen could alter the immune system. That's kind of how the immune system works. I'm not even sure your explanations are worth anything, I just don't have the expert knowledge to say. Is there any particular reason you're skipping over my posts? I believe I've provided exactly what you asked for. And no, not every pathogen can alter the immune system, that's absolutely false. Most pathogens can just cause a reaction in the immune system. Those that can alter it are rare.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:32
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Obdicut posted:Is there any particular reason you're skipping over my posts? I believe I've provided exactly what you asked for. No it's a good post. I don't disagree with anything it.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:33
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Ogmius815 posted:Furthermore, it seems like exposure to any pathogen could alter the immune system. That's kind of how the immune system works. It's not clear to me why variola is special. I'm not even sure your explanations are worth anything, I just don't have the expert knowledge to say. My ignorance alone shall shield me from any need to concede!
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Jul 13, 2014 04:34
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Ogmius815 posted:No it's a good post. I don't disagree with anything it. So good, you're convinced that there is reason to keep smallpox around for research in the future, that the risks are small--essentially zero--et al.?
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Jul 13, 2014 04:34
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Ogmius815 posted:Several people did. No, I was responding to you saying we still need to provide an explanation. We already did.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:35
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Obdicut posted:So good, you're convinced that there is reason to keep smallpox around for research in the future, that the risks are small--essentially zero--et al.? Sure. Because you gave a good reason, which posters in this thread simply refused to do for pages upon pages.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:35
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Ogmius815 posted:I just don't have the expert knowledge to say. Then leave it to those who do. End of argument.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:36
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Yarbald posted:Then leave it to those who do. End of argument. Because everyone arguing against me in this thread has had expert knowledge of virology. They didn't have a kneejerk reaction to defend scientific research in all cases or anything like that.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:37
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Ogmius815 posted:Sure. Because you gave a good reason, which posters in this thread simply refused to do for pages upon pages. Obdicut, get him. Get him and gut him like the great khan your avatar represents. This, I beg of you. I shall be your willing vassal unto eternity if you just gut him. Metaphorically speaking, of course.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:37
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Ogmius815 posted:That doesn't follow. You want to talk logical fallacies, that's a big one. I can find other experts who say we should destroy smallpox. Woo hoo. It doesn't seem wise to call your own post a logical fallacy, even though it is. Ogmius815 posted:Furthermore, it seems like exposure to any pathogen could alter the immune system. That's kind of how the immune system works. It's not clear to me why variola is special. What seems to you is wrong. That's not how it works. Of course you wouldn't find that clear as you know nothing of viruses. Ogmius815 posted:Sure. Because you gave a good reason, which posters in this thread simply refused to do for pages upon pages. Everything he wrote has already been said. This is you admitting you have not read the thread.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:38
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Ogmius815 posted:Sure. Because you gave a good reason, which posters in this thread simply refused to do for pages upon pages. Actually, they gave those explanations to you pages and pages ago, you just denied the existence of them. I'm glad I was able to put it in a way that was accessible to you, but given what you just said about pathogens and the immune system, I'm going to guess that you have very limited scientific expertise on pathogens. So why would you assert, so strongly, for pages, an opinion about the viability of research into this particular pathogen?
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Jul 13, 2014 04:38
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Obdicut posted:Actually, they gave those explanations to you pages and pages ago, you just denied the existence of them. I'm glad I was able to put it in a way that was accessible to you, but given what you just said about pathogens and the immune system, I'm going to guess that you have very limited scientific expertise on pathogens. So why would you assert, so strongly, for pages, an opinion about the viability of research into this particular pathogen? Mostly because some people were claiming they didn't need to explain how the research would be beneficial and that rubbed me the wrong way.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:40
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Ogmius815 posted:Mostly because some people were claiming they didn't need to explain how the research would be beneficial and that rubbed me the wrong way. Why are you so hung up on this, you were given examples of the possible benefits.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:41
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Ogmius815 posted:Mostly because some people were claiming they didn't need to explain how the research would be beneficial and that rubbed me the wrong way. "I'm a stubborn idiot who can't imagine the idea that research itself is not evil and that it's only how its applied that is good or evil. Also the fact that I demand people literally see the future and tell me what good benefits might be had from something in the future with new tools, scientific discoveries and things like that. Never once imagining that because they don't know, does not mean they're just holding onto it because they want to literally jerk off with the virus." Got it.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:41
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Ogmius815 posted:that rubbed me the wrong way. We know, but that's not a reason for failing to concede.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:42
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Yarbald posted:Why are you so hung up on this, you were given examples of the possible benefits. I didn't see any clear benefits explained until E-tank's post like an hour ago. I tried to ignore that for a few minutes because I don't like to lose arguments on the internet okay guys? Sorry.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:42
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