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Sydin posted:Honestly Zuko's whole plan was kind of dumb. He grabbed three waterbenders and then sat around outside freezing until the villains showed up. No attempt to secure the prison more, no attempt to head them off before they got close to the prison, no additional backup from the apparent swarm of White Lotus mooks he's got lying around. There were White Lotus inside the prison, they just got wrecked as usual.
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Jul 13, 2014 16:56
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ImpAtom posted:She didn't have many fights with Zuko but she had fights with other characters and demonstrated a level of skill comparable with the Avatar and "literally redefines bending she's so good at it" Toph. By the time we get to Korra she's recognized as the "best in the world." Also she instantly is able to grasp and even counter Bloodbending which is itself an advanced and difficult to learn waterbending technique. She was never shown to being anywhere near as good as Toph or even Aang. Aang's growth was even crazier than Katara's Aang literally learned and masted 3 styles of bending he had never done before in less than a year's time. Either Aang, Toph or Azula were the best Benders that we saw a bunch of in the show, Leaning towards Azula as I don't think she ever lost when she wasn't blindsided or crazy.
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Jul 13, 2014 17:01
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ImpAtom posted:There were White Lotus inside the prison, they just got wrecked as usual. White Lotus just aren't what they used to be.
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Jul 13, 2014 17:12
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Dexo posted:She was never shown to being anywhere near as good as Toph or even Aang. Aang's growth was even crazier than Katara's Aang literally learned and masted 3 styles of bending he had never done before in less than a year's time. Either Aang, Toph or Azula were the best Benders that we saw a bunch of in the show, Leaning towards Azula as I don't think she ever lost when she wasn't blindsided or crazy. He'd learned them hundreds of times before. 
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Jul 13, 2014 17:13
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Caros posted:He'd learned them hundreds of times before. I love that the spiritual side of the show is such that this makes perfect sense for Aang learning quickly and Korra not.
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Jul 13, 2014 17:16
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Dexo posted:She was never shown to being anywhere near as good as Toph or even Aang. Aang's growth was even crazier than Katara's Aang literally learned and masted 3 styles of bending he had never done before in less than a year's time. Either Aang, Toph or Azula were the best Benders that we saw a bunch of in the show, Leaning towards Azula as I don't think she ever lost when she wasn't blindsided or crazy. She totally lost on top of the drill. Whenever she won it was usually with some sort of distraction or with backup (like in the crystal caverns at the end of season 2, she needed Zuko and Dai Li to show up which forced Aang to use the Avatar state, then she hosed him up with a good shot).
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Jul 13, 2014 17:37
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Zuko's definitely a pretty good bender but he's surrounded by prodigies. A major character beat for him in fact is the fact that his sister is a bending prodigy who takes after their father while he's just decently good and therefore a disappointment.
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Jul 13, 2014 17:39
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I wouldn't be that disappointed with Zuko getting instantly beaten by the new bad guys if that wasn't a trend in Korra. If a person was old in ATLA, you pretty much knew they were going to be experienced, wise, and great benders despite their age. In Korra, if you're over 50, you're going to get beaten up by the rank and file bad guys, much less the Super Ultra Bender Squad. I think everyone was hoping that Zuko was going to basically become Iroh 2 and be a comparatively wise and great bender in his advanced age, and it's kind of disappointing that, again, he's just there to get beaten up to prove what incredible threats these bad guys are.
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Jul 13, 2014 19:03
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Darth Nat posted:I think everyone was hoping that Zuko was going to basically become Iroh 2 and be a comparatively wise and great bender in his advanced age, and it's kind of disappointing that, again, he's just there to get beaten up to prove what incredible threats these bad guys are. I don't know why fans would be inclined to think like this though (outside of the usual, fanfic-ish wish-fulfillment). What I've always liked about Zuko and his whole character arc was that, while he was the weakest bender in the royal household, he was the best fit to be the household's head and lead the whole nation. By the end of TLA I really got the sense that the Fire Nation was on the right path because Zuko had gotten over his whole deal with being an incompetent bender (relatively speaking) because he realized he was a very competent person. Which says a lot, because in a world where people can literally bend the elements to their whims it would be easy to conflate being a good/capable bender with being a good/capable person. e: So him getting his rear end beat by Team Bad Squad, while disheartening, isn't really that much of a loss when we consider the bigger context surrounding the situation. That Firelord Zuko managed to cooperate with the Water Nation (and presumably the other nations/White Lotus) to reign in these dudes is a tremendous diplomatic development when just a generation ago the Fire Nation was locked in total war with everyone else. MLKQUOTEMACHINE fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 19:22
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I don't think I agree that Zuko has ever necessarily been a (relatively speaking) weak bender, and his bending troubles always came from his emotional and spiritual problems, not necessarily from a lack of ability or talent. He may never have been a god-king of bending like Toph or Azula, but he was almost always a pretty good, if not great bender that just wasn't in the extreme top-tier like the people he hung out with/fought against. Most of his troubles with advanced bending was because of his ongoing spiritual battle, and once he got that sorted out, I figured that he would become an exceptional bender. And again, in ATLA, it was almost always shown that an older bender who is able to draw on all their experiences is truly a force to be reckoned with, and it's disappointing to me that this isn't generally the case in Korra. I don't like seeing old characters I liked or middle-aged descendants of characters I liked constantly getting beaten to further the plot.
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Jul 13, 2014 19:38
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Darth Nat posted:Yeah, one thing I liked about the original series was that if a really old dude showed up, you knew he was going to be awesome. I feel like a lot of the older characters in Korra exist just to get beaten up on to show how powerful the villains are. Darth Nat posted:I don't know, it's pretty underwhelming compared to old dudes like Bumi from the original series who were still kicking extreme levels of rear end while being ancient. Darth Nat posted:I wouldn't be that disappointed with Zuko getting instantly beaten by the new bad guys if that wasn't a trend in Korra. If a person was old in ATLA, you pretty much knew they were going to be experienced, wise, and great benders despite their age. In Korra, if you're over 50, you're going to get beaten up by the rank and file bad guys, much less the Super Ultra Bender Squad. Darth Nat posted:And again, in ATLA, it was almost always shown that an older bender who is able to draw on all their experiences is truly a force to be reckoned with, and it's disappointing to me that this isn't generally the case in Korra. We get it, you're disappointed. And Zaheer's quite powerful despite not being particularly young. thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 19:43
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You missed my point entirely. There's more to the world than bending and there's more to growing old than becoming a good bender, which goes double for someone ruling a nation. From what we can infer about the Fire Nation under Zuko's stewardship it went from crazy Imperial Japan levels of world conquest dreams to something way more reasonable in less than a generation. I'm not surprised that Zuko gets clowned by these benders because he was probably spending a great deal of his time doing all the administrative and diplomatic work it takes to revamp a nation of hyperviolent, would-be conquerors, leaving him little time to get all spiritual and great at bending. Actually, no, he probably did accomplish something bendy and spiritual, because the dude's managed to befriend a dragon to ride around, but that does not necessarily mean he's a great bender, just a cool dude who can kick it with dragons. MLKQUOTEMACHINE fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 19:46
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I hope Zuko at least learned to lightningbend. I mean if Mako the mook can do it...
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Jul 13, 2014 19:52
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Also, like someone pointed out, firebending in the middle of the arctic is supposed to be more difficult than in a more temperate environment. Plus, all of Zaheer's gang are ridiculous prodigies in and of themselves, able to do stuff with their bending that most people think is impossible. Plus plus, it's just kind of necessary from a narrative standpoint: Zuko isn't the hero of the story, and these guys look to be the main villains for the arc, so if they get punked by him now and have to run away it kind of deflates their menace very early.
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Jul 13, 2014 19:52
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Android Blues posted:Plus plus, it's just kind of necessary from a narrative standpoint: Zuko isn't the hero of the story, and these guys look to be the main villains for the arc, so if they get punked by him now and have to run away it kind of deflates their menace very early. Also, we're not even halfway through the season yet... I'm willing to bet they didn't bring Zuko back JUST to lose against them in that episode. hiddenriverninja posted:I hope Zuko at least learned to lightningbend. I mean if Mako the mook can do it... Although, to be fair, Mako doesn't have an evil father and crazy sister to primarily associate it with. thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 19:53
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Defending Zuko getting unceremoniously jobbed out is just after-the-fact fanboy apologetics. I guarantee that if half the episode was dedicated to an epic bending battle between Awesome Zuko and the villains none of the people defending what really happened would be complaining because "well in the original series he wasn't that great"
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Jul 13, 2014 20:06
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Tezzor posted:Defending Zuko getting jobbed out is just after-the-fact fanboy apologetics. I guarantee that if half the episode was dedicated to an epic bending battle between Awesome Zuko and the villains none of the people defending what really happened would be complaining because "well in the original series he wasn't that great" Well if we get to argue hypothetical and speak to what might have happened rather than talk about what's actually happened, then I think that LoK would have been a much better series if Mako
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Jul 13, 2014 20:08
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Android Blues posted:Also, like someone pointed out, firebending in the middle of the arctic is supposed to be more difficult than in a more temperate environment. Plus, all of Zaheer's gang are ridiculous prodigies in and of themselves, able to do stuff with their bending that most people think is impossible.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:15
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I agree that Old Zuko, a single-episode cameo character, should definitely have recaptured all the prisoners and ended the plot. Audiences love it when that happens. His jobbing or defeat, or the degree of his defeat, is utterly unimportant to the current story. They didn't pants him and buttkick him into the moon, they just escaped. If Toph or Zuko show up at the last minute like bending deus ex machinas to fix all the plot, I will be deeply unhappy. The old days are done, the teenage characters you liked are changed or dead. Let the new generation have a chance. The lawn belongs to them now.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:28
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A huge plot point of the 3rd season was Zuko making the shift from being fueled by rage, anger, and aggression to being spiritually sound, and his bending going from huge flashy blasts and amazing combat feats to a controlled and deliberate style of precision and focus rather than "badass". The tradeoff in firebending between power and balance was a huge theme. This was a point made throughout the whole series, with Jeong Jeong in S01 and Iroh in S02 laying it out that crazy aggressive firebenders like Zhao and Azula were more powerful, but also self destructive. It isn't an accident that Iroh was always stressing the need for a good balanced stance, it was a point they were harping on. Balance is the key, the Fire Nation and firebending were out of balance. It let them do great things, but it also was destroying them. It contrasts with the Sun Warrior's style which is much more subdued, but also more harmonious. Zuko's big role wasn't in beating people down, it was in changing an entire culture to one of balance. Sure they couldn't hurl huge gouts of fire around any more, but it also meant they weren't crazy and needed to go down. Toph may have expanded the horizon of what benders were capable of, Katara may have been strong enough the shatter the ice ceiling in the Northern Water Tribe, but to say the guy whose skills were enough that an entire nation changed their way of doing things to be like him is "bad at bending" requires you to ignore his entire arc in the first series. Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 20:36
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Squidster posted:I agree that Old Zuko, a single-episode cameo character, should definitely have recaptured all the prisoners and ended the plot. Audiences love it when that happens. In fact, I think it's that whole last break out which was a bit anti-climactic. With that many named characters and time to prepare on the defenders' part, I think we were in our "right" to expect something rather impressive. Right now, that fight was a pity compared to the fight between Kya and Zaheer.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:04
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ImpAtom posted:There were White Lotus inside the prison, they just got wrecked as usual. I'm not surprised they got wrecked seeing as the White Lotus are clearly inept - of the two guards we see get punked by Waterbender lady one of them is a Firebender. A Firebender standing guard in a prison that's specifically designed to be inimical to Firebending!
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Jul 13, 2014 21:48
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thatinfernalpigeon posted:I'm not surprised they got wrecked seeing as the White Lotus are clearly inept - of the two guards we see get punked by Waterbender lady one of them is a Firebender. A Firebender standing guard in a prison that's specifically designed to be inimical to Firebending! I do kind of enjoy that the White Lotus are one of the few unified multi-element organizations we see in ATLA or Korra-- it's not often that a whole bunch of characters in matching uniforms show up and then start bending three different elements. Not that it gets them very far. 
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Jul 13, 2014 21:58
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So they're like the UN.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:19
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Rincewind posted:I do kind of enjoy that the White Lotus are one of the few unified multi-element organizations we see in ATLA or Korra-- it's not often that a whole bunch of characters in matching uniforms show up and then start bending three different elements. Well we had the police in season 1 doing water and earth during the raid, and the White Lotus, have there been any others?
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Jul 13, 2014 22:19
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Fried Chicken posted:Well we had the police in season 1 doing water and earth during the raid, and the White Lotus, have there been any others? I guess the Republic Forces, although I can't remember if we got to see any of them besides General Iroh do bending instead of just jumping off exploding ships.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:27
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Rincewind posted:I guess the Republic Forces, although I can't remember if we got to see any of them besides General Iroh do bending instead of just jumping off exploding ships. Speaking of, I wonder if we'll get to see any other United Republic cities?
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Jul 13, 2014 22:29
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We've spent so much time in Republic City over the past two books that I forgot that the Republic had more land and wasn't just a single independent city-state until we saw the Earth Kingdom map a few episodes ago.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:40
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Well Manicured Man posted:We've spent so much time in Republic City over the past two books that I forgot that the Republic had more land and wasn't just a single independent city-state until we saw the Earth Kingdom map a few episodes ago. Basically the Republic is all of the former Fire Nation occupied lands of the Earth Kingdom. 100 years of cultural mixing and occupation basically created a hybrid and ceding it to either side sparked anger.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:44
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thatinfernalpigeon posted:I'm not surprised they got wrecked seeing as the White Lotus are clearly inept - of the two guards we see get punked by Waterbender lady one of them is a Firebender. A Firebender standing guard in a prison that's specifically designed to be inimical to Firebending! Yeah this bugged me too. Why are you stationing firebenders in a prison specifically built to be hostile to them? It'd be like having waterbenders guarding the volcano or earthbenders defending the wooden ship.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:55
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Squidster posted:I agree that Old Zuko, a single-episode cameo character, should definitely have recaptured all the prisoners and ended the plot. Audiences love it when that happens. I am not saying he should have beat them, I am saying that after making us wait 2 1/2 seasons to see a popular character he should have lost if necessary to the plot, but made a much better show of it. Are you really trying to argue that you would have been disappointed and upset if there was a 10-minute battle between Jeong Jeong/Ozai/Iroh-level Zuko and the one or more of the new villains? It is not unimportant to the current story. It would have made the villains look a lot tougher and more dangerous being able to prevail over a firebending God instead of an apparently inept old man and made the new characters' inevitable victory over them seem a lot more impressive. Tezzor fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 23:01
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Tezzor posted:Are you really trying to argue that you would have been disappointed and upset if there was a 10-minute battle between Jeong Jeong/Ozai/Iroh-level Zuko and the one or more of the new villains? You keep bringing up this thing that nobody is saying or even inferring. Just because people weren't disappointed by what was in the episode doesn't mean they would have been disappointed by a more involved fight. ...and, actually, a 10-minute fight? Who wants half an episode of fighting? This isn't DBZ. thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 23:05
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Sydin posted:Yeah this bugged me too. Why are you stationing firebenders in a prison specifically built to be hostile to them? It'd be like having waterbenders guarding the volcano or earthbenders defending the wooden ship. The firebender makes sense because unlike the other ones the imprisoned bender's element is still available to them is the containment mechanisms slip. Then you want someone there who can redirect the element away and protect the other guards. Or basically the reverse of what P'Li did when the dragon attacked.
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Jul 13, 2014 23:13
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thexerox123 posted:You keep bringing up this thing that nobody is saying or even inferring. Just because people weren't disappointed by what was in the episode doesn't mean they would have been disappointed by a more involved fight. I like this show, and I like this season the best so far, but I'm tired of fanboy apologetics for the parts that aren't great (which everybody inevitably agrees weren't great six months later.) There were fights in Avatar that lasted 10 minutes easily. DBZ fights last hundreds of minutes. If 10 minutes is too high for you, how about 5? Basically anything better than a squash that lasted 10 seconds? It isn't even all about making Zuko look lame it's also a huge missed opportunity to a) have a cool fight and b) make the villains look scary.
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Jul 13, 2014 23:14
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While I always love sweet bender battles, it would have been terrible for the pacing. The episode wasn't about Zuko and his prisonbros, it was about Korra and her crew. Bending is a visual treat, but if it's not in service of the storytelling it's just sexy filler. Here's the deal about fighting and tension - when the conclusion is foregone, and the characters are all safe, nobody cares. Did you ever doubt for a moment that the prison villains would escape? Did you actually fear for the life of Old Man Zuko, just introduced, emotionless twins or Korra's dad? No, because they're not important enough for hurting them to be meaningful, and because the later plot absolutely needs the prisoners to escape. So the fight scene there is cool, but perfunctory, because it's just doing setup for later conflicts. The fight scene with Kya and Zaheer is much more involved because there's actual stakes. You can pretty confidently guess that Zaheer isn't going to get captured, but is Kya going to be badly hurt? Are Tenzin's family going to be dragged into the fight? Actual stakes with recurring characters = more emotional investment = more animation investment. A Good Decision. \/\/\/ 
Squidster fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 23:16
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^^^ This post makes the point far better than I have. Tezzor posted:There were fights in Avatar that lasted 10 minutes easily. They weren't just random early season fights, though. Anything like that was really built up to. I mean, what examples are there aside from the day of Black Sun (which was a complex battle sequence, not a straight-up fight) and the Ozai fight at the end? You really want a fight equivalent to the climax of Avatar (which looks to be 11-13 minutes long when stitched together, based on "full versions" of it on YouTube), in episode 3 of this season? And I never really watched Avatar or Korra for the fights, so I really couldn't care less that it wasn't longer. People watch shows for different reasons, it doesn't have to be "fanboy apologetics". thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 23:17
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Tezzor posted:I like this show, and I like this season the best so far, but I'm tired of fanboy apologetics for the parts that aren't great (which everybody inevitably agrees weren't great six months later.) There were fights in Avatar that lasted 10 minutes easily. DBZ fights last hundreds of minutes. If 10 minutes is too high for you, how about 5? Basically anything better than a squash that lasted 10 seconds? Your examples also had a much longer total season time. They can afford to digress without cutting into storytelling. And this isn't fanboy apologetics, this is you being an idiot. Zuko's particular fight may have been 10 seconds, but the entire fight from Tonraq's first punch to him getting blasted by P'Li lasted 2 minutes, and the whole scene is 3:15. Or put it another way, that's 15% of the whole episode. Your 10 minute fight would be the same length as the whole Dai Li compound raid thatt came later in the episode. Quit your bitching.
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Jul 13, 2014 23:24
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Actually, the fight scenes were the only reason I really watched ATLA or Korra; I heard that there was cool, well-choreographed kung fu magic fights in it and it sounded neat. Also, I can name at least one super-cool long fight scene from ATLA: The confrontation between the Gaang and Azula in the dusty abandoned town. That was an awesome fight. Either one big fight, or more short ones, would be great, but it's the kind of thing you can only pull off in a show with the episodes to support it. As long as they're sticking to the godawful 13 episode format, all the fights are going to be rather quick and unfulfilling.
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Jul 13, 2014 23:26
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DrSunshine posted:Actually, the fight scenes were the only reason I really watched ATLA or Korra; I heard that there was cool, well-choreographed kung fu magic fights in it and it sounded neat. And the Battle at the Monastery. But the thing is, both of those were pivotal scenes in character arcs. The Monastery was the last time we had Zuko out to kill Aang one on one, after that we started seeing him as more nuanced and the start of their relationship to change. With the abandoned town it was establishing that Azula was now the deadly villain, that Zuko was on a different path. "Ok, the villains are out of prison and the main characters are on the other side of the planet" is not a series defining fight like those.
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Jul 13, 2014 23:31
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It'd be like if in the middle of the Ba Sing Se arc we had a fifteen minute fight sequence of the Dai Li pursuing Jet or something.
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Jul 13, 2014 23:33
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