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Cythereal posted:the Catholic Church and its immediate offshoots seem to be fairly consistent from church to church - go to any Catholic, Anglican/Episcopalian/Orthodox church and you'll get something pretty close to any other. Hahahahaha. Until fairly recently (new Archbishop), there was a GLBT-centered Catholic church in San Francisco. There was also (new Bishop, promoted to become new Archbishop in previous clause) St. Joseph the Worker in Oakland, which concentrated on social justice. There are hard-right Catholic churches that denounce Nancy Pelosi from the pulpit. And that's just political differences. There are also liturgical differences, from all-Latin (both in schism and not) to all-[vernacular language] with guitars and stuff. And when it comes to the Episcopal Church in North America, all bets are off. I've been to an Episcopal church that sang the Maranatha songbook (ugh) and distributed Focus on the Family leaflets in the church bulletin. I've been to Episcopal churches that intoned the entire service. Seriously, in America, at least, two of the major liturgical churches have wide variation from church to church and diocese to diocese. You really do have to shop around.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:46
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Paladinus posted:Are you sure he was dressed as a pope and not St. Nicholas? Very sure. It was this, just orange, and his belt/sash was the colors of the Dutch flag.  StashAugustine posted:is my new favorite word. Thanks!
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Jul 10, 2014 19:55
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Hoover Dam posted:Very sure. It was this, just orange, and his belt/sash was the colors of the Dutch flag.
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Jul 10, 2014 19:57
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Hahahahaha. Until fairly recently (new Archbishop), there was a GLBT-centered Catholic church in San Francisco. There was also (new Bishop, promoted to become new Archbishop in previous clause) St. Joseph the Worker in Oakland, which concentrated on social justice. There are hard-right Catholic churches that denounce Nancy Pelosi from the pulpit. And that's just political differences. There are also liturgical differences, from all-Latin (both in schism and not) to all-[vernacular language] with guitars and stuff. And when it comes to the Episcopal Church in North America, all bets are off. I've been to an Episcopal church that sang the Maranatha songbook (ugh) and distributed Focus on the Family leaflets in the church bulletin. I've been to Episcopal churches that intoned the entire service. I thought Most Holy Redeemer was still LGBT affirming. I mean they were selling Pride shirts so I assumed it was still a thing for them. I went there once while family was visiting and said "Yeah I guess being Catholic might not be for me cause even if I lived close I couldn't attend mass here."
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Jul 10, 2014 20:10
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They're still affirming AFAIK, but they're very worried. See Cordileone's comments. In Oakland, he wouldn't recognize the GLBT group until they stopped using "gay" and "lesbian" and used "homosexual" instead. Interestingly, Cordileone has just (July 1) appointed two new co-pastors, who are Missionaries of the Sacred Blood. http://www.kcprovince.org/sent-by-the-blood-2/ quote:Through many ministries, the Missionaries of the Precious Blood serve those on the margins through work in the inner city, healthcare, pastoral care, and advocacy. Our members serve as teachers, pastors, missionaries, retreat leaders, theologians, advocates for those on the margins of society, hospice care workers, and justice & peace advocates.
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Jul 10, 2014 21:02
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Trier posted:the Backtothebible.org 6 month reading challenge. I echo Worthleast. Go and see; but also pray. I had to catch up on this thread; forgot how good it is.
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Jul 11, 2014 16:21
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Another week, another disappointing visit to another local Protestant church. This one was Methodist, but the pattern remains: I'm a good ten years younger than the next youngest person at the church, and fifteen older than the next oldest. Despite my severe theological reservations, I'm now starting to consider looking up a local Catholic, Episcopalian, or Orthodox church. I care more about community than theology, and perhaps I'd have better luck with a church tradition that doesn't make a habit of fracturing over the tiniest issues. I still have some profound theological issues with those alternative Christian traditions, but I'm open to the idea of changing in that regard if there's more than one or two regulars in their twenties who aren't married with kids. :/
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Jul 13, 2014 14:24
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Cythereal posted:Another week, another disappointing visit to another local Protestant church. This one was Methodist, but the pattern remains: I'm a good ten years younger than the next youngest person at the church, and fifteen older than the next oldest. I'm sorry if it's going to come off as an impolite question, but are you trying to find yourself a Christian girlfriend? I'm just not entirely sure why you think you can't fit with older people or even people of your age who have kids.
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Jul 13, 2014 15:05
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Paladinus posted:I'm sorry if it's going to come off as an impolite question, but are you trying to find yourself a Christian girlfriend? I'm just not entirely sure why you think you can't fit with older people or even people of your age who have kids. That's admittedly part of it, yes, but it's also been my experience that I do not fit in well with older people. I live in the South, but have liberal views both socially and theologically. I'm very firmly in the camp of Christians who don't see, say, evolution and divine creation as mutually exclusive, and my reservations against things like genetic engineering come from how easily they could be abused rather than any moral objection. These views are decidedly not the norm here in general, much less among older people. And I find that I have little in common with people who are married - they tend to be wrapped up with concerns that I do not currently share. Without getting too E/N about it, another large part of it is just looking to make friends my own age in the area I moved to. I moved into this area for a job, and work evenings and weekends, which precludes a lot of options. I work at a state university, so staff there also trends distinctly older than me. I was fortunate enough to never move anywhere growing up, and the church I went to for almost my entire life always had an active group of people around my age that I called friends. I've always looked to church as a place to meet and make friends as a result, and it's why I'm still focusing on finding a church community with people my own age, particularly in light of my work schedule.
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Jul 13, 2014 15:16
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Cythereal posted:I work at a state university...
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Jul 13, 2014 15:30
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HEY GAL posted:Lots of universities have church groups, have you looked around on campus? A church with primarily college students, professors, and their families might have more of what you're looking for in it. There is one, but, well, Florida. It's a half hour to 45 minute drive to work, and that's a longer drive than I really want to make for church. I will consider it if I keep coming up empty. I have visited a couple of churches that ended up having university staff and students regularly attending, but again: at most, one or two regular attendees my own age. I don't mean to get too E/N about all this, it's just getting frustrating after six and a half months of striking out. The one church I did visit with a healthy group of people my own age was a borderline megachurch where the pastor shilled charlatans like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck from the pulpit. The joys of being a devout Christian with liberal views in Florida.
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Jul 13, 2014 15:36
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As much as I hate to admit it, don't expect great results from most Catholic parishes, except ones right adjacent to a college campus (or that are on a Catholic college's campus); American Catholics do not do fellowship very well. Some parishes don't even have a place to gather and talk after church. 
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Jul 13, 2014 17:31
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Cythereal posted:I don't mean to get too E/N about all this, it's just getting frustrating after six and a half months of striking out. The one church I did visit with a healthy group of people my own age was a borderline megachurch where the pastor shilled charlatans like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck from the pulpit. This is an actual demographic phenomenon. I can't find the exact study I'm thinking of at the moment but it was a big one by like Pew Research about how young people in America are much less likely to be church-goers today than in years past. It might be small comfort to you, but it's at least an explanation 
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Jul 13, 2014 20:16
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Lutha Mahtin posted:This is an actual demographic phenomenon. I can't find the exact study I'm thinking of at the moment but it was a big one by like Pew Research about how young people in America are much less likely to be church-goers today than in years past. It might be small comfort to you, but it's at least an explanation I didn't know there was an actual study about it, but I am very familiar with the facts it found. I remain an oddball - a scientifically literate, socially and theologically liberal Protestant in his mid-twenties who actually enjoys getting up early on Sundays to go to church. Nothing to do but keep looking. It's just frustrating.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:39
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My college Catholic church in Indiana is pretty vibrant, there's like 4 Masses a day, all pretty well attended, and there's a lot of people in the various groups attached to the church. It's kinda middle-of-the-road theologically- against premarital sex, abortion and the other stuff but with a large focus on social justice and charity. It was pretty bad in the nineties but they brought a bunch of Dominicans in about eight years ago and they fixed the place up.
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Jul 14, 2014 04:53
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StashAugustine posted:My college Catholic church in Indiana is pretty vibrant, there's like 4 Masses a day, all pretty well attended, and there's a lot of people in the various groups attached to the church. It's kinda middle-of-the-road theologically- against premarital sex, abortion and the other stuff but with a large focus on social justice and charity. It was pretty bad in the nineties but they brought a bunch of Dominicans in about eight years ago and they fixed the place up.
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Jul 14, 2014 11:12
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HEY GAL posted:Well yeah, but he also wants to hang out with people. Cythereal, what about joining a Lutheran/Methodist/etc church on campus and then making sure to sign up for as many groups as you can? They're often hard up for members because nobody gives a poo poo about parish council, and then you'll be meeting people and helping them out too. Problematic at the moment because it's summer, which is infinitely less active than spring and fall and I'm not sure how welcome staff are as opposed to students, and the university is a 30-45 minute drive from where I live - if this sounds weird, it's because I live in Florida, which is sprawly as hell and apartments closer cost more than I can afford on a $22k a year salary. Something to look into in the fall, I suppose. There are two more seemingly nondenominational Protestant churches within ten minutes of my apartment (yes, there really are six different Protestant churches - that I know of - within ten minutes of my apartment, seven if you count a Pentecostal church) that I'll be giving a look. But I am considering putting non-Protestant churches on the table if these don't work out.
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Jul 14, 2014 14:22
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What were the theological issues with catholic/episcopal/orthodox again? Because catholics, when they do do fellowship, do it pretty decently, and tend to either skew all 20 somethings or all 90 year old bitties who still do their rosary in latin. Same with episcopal churches i've gone to - there's either an active young adult population or none at all. But if you can get lucky enough to find one that does have that active young adult population, you've struck gold. I think part of the problem is the whole drag of liturgical christianity being this thing that we all got dragged to when we were kids to sit through sunday school or worse - CCD (at least sunday school if you were being dragged to mass you didn't have to go to church twice in one week) and we sorta fall out of going even if we don't lose touch with our spirituality because gently caress getting up on sunday mornings, and then when we get older and have kids ourselves, we remember all the good things sunday school did for us, drag our kids, and repeat the cycle, where anyone who doesn't have kids of their own doesn't really go that often. I've been to a few evangelical churches, and while they definitely skew younger, they definitely seem to attract a much different kind of christian than liturgical churches do. They get a lot more of "the only moral x is my X" types - a lot of my coworkers when i worked fast food went to the evangelical churches, and many of them were high school kids who were knocked up or had knocked someone up, but still went to churches that were hardline anti-premarital sex, etc. Which just confused me - why would you go to somewhere that tells you you're a sinner for what you've done rather than seek out a more open and accepting parish? Then again, south dakota in general confuses me because that's just the tip of the iceberg with social issues, and i think the church thing is far more of a symptom of the larger issues than anything.
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Jul 14, 2014 15:33
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This sums up my theological problems with Catholicism and its siblings pretty well. I don't think the divergences from the Five Solae are necessarily wrong, but they feel very foreign and pointless to me. Reverence of the saints in general and Mary in particular are a recurring bugbear for me in this thread, but the ones I have the biggest theological issues with are the doctrines of sola scriptura and Solus Christus - adhering to the Bible alone as the Christian canon and the priesthood of all believers. I really don't mean to derail this thread into E/N issues, though. When it comes to theology, I'm very flexible within the Protestant realm but have serious and deep-seated reservations against the non-Protestant traditions.
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Jul 14, 2014 16:05
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AA is for Quitters posted:I've been to a few evangelical churches, and while they definitely skew younger, they definitely seem to attract a much different kind of christian than liturgical churches do. They get a lot more of "the only moral x is my X" types - a lot of my coworkers when i worked fast food went to the evangelical churches, and many of them were high school kids who were knocked up or had knocked someone up, but still went to churches that were hardline anti-premarital sex, etc. Which just confused me - why would you go to somewhere that tells you you're a sinner for what you've done rather than seek out a more open and accepting parish? A religion professor of mine once said something like "people usually believe in either a loving God or a judging God".
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Jul 14, 2014 16:23
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Lutha Mahtin posted:A religion professor of mine once said something like "people usually believe in either a loving God or a judging God". http://youtu.be/OawrlVoQqSs
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Jul 14, 2014 16:26
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AA is for Quitters posted:Which just confused me - why would you go to somewhere that tells you you're a sinner for what you've done rather than seek out a more open and accepting parish? I think this might be a Protestant/Catholic thing, but I don't see a problem with that- in fact if your church isn't telling you you're a sinner you might have a problem. But I don't see 'sinner' as a loaded word per se, we're all sinners. It's how you come back from it that counts. Now obviously there are your hypocrites, there are those who just give lip service to their beliefs, there are those that do believe but find it too much effort to do it right (Lord, make me good, but not yet) and those people may fall into those categories, but I have to take issue with that statement as a generalization.
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Jul 14, 2014 16:34
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Lutha Mahtin posted:A religion professor of mine once said something like "people usually believe in either a loving God or a judging God". Personally, I believe in both. My parents love me deeply, but they've never hesitated to call me out when I've made bad choices.
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Jul 14, 2014 16:38
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Cythereal posted:Personally, I believe in both. My parents love me deeply, but they've never hesitated to call me out when I've made bad choices. God is a Father. This was made very clear by Christ.
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Jul 14, 2014 17:27
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Worthleast posted:God is a Father. This was made very clear by Christ. Which is one interesting thing to think about. The word "father" doesn't carry as much meaning on it's own as we might think. How do we understand fatherhood? Because Jesus taught to call God the Father, our image of Him is greatly affected by how we perceive our own biological fathers. Is your father always working and never home? That will very probably shape your idea of God. Did you grow up with no father at all? How will that affect?
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Jul 14, 2014 18:10
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Cythereal posted:This sums up my theological problems with Catholicism and its siblings pretty well. I don't think the divergences from the Five Solae are necessarily wrong, but they feel very foreign and pointless to me. Reverence of the saints in general and Mary in particular are a recurring bugbear for me in this thread, but the ones I have the biggest theological issues with are the doctrines of sola scriptura and Solus Christus - adhering to the Bible alone as the Christian canon and the priesthood of all believers. If you want the Church hierarchy and official theology to insist on the Five Solae as a fundamental of the Church, look elsewhere. If you're willing to participate in the same Church as believers who don't, it's worth visiting the local Episcopal churches and see if any of them match your parameters.
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Jul 14, 2014 18:22
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But if you judge God based on the actions your imperfect human father takes, you're kinda missing the point. The Bible has plenty to say(especially in Proverbs) about what righteous fathers should be doing. Just because Solomon was a really bad dad doesn't mean the wisdom he received from God on the topic of fatherhood was wrong, he just chose not to apply it in his own life.
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Jul 14, 2014 18:23
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Jaramin posted:But if you judge God based on the actions your imperfect human father takes, you're kinda missing the point. The Bible has plenty to say(especially in Proverbs) about what righteous fathers should be doing. Just because Solomon was a really bad dad doesn't mean the wisdom he received from God on the topic of fatherhood was wrong, he just chose not to apply it in his own life.
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Jul 14, 2014 18:27
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HEY GAL posted:Considering that we're talking about the logical ground for existence, that than which nothing greater can be thought to exist, etc., there's only so far this metaphor can take us, I think. Ugh, shut up, you're not my real dad. 
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Jul 14, 2014 18:28
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Smoking Crow posted:Ugh, shut up, you're not my real dad. Shut up, son.
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Jul 14, 2014 18:32
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my dad posted:Shut up, son. I've been waiting for you.
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Jul 14, 2014 18:34
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HEY GAL posted:Considering that we're talking about the logical ground for existence, that than which nothing greater can be thought to exist, etc., there's only so far this metaphor can take us, I think. The argument has nothing to do with the existence or logic of God, we're debating if God can exhibit the qualities on mercy/loving kindness and wrath/judgement simultaneously while acting as the prototypical example of fatherhood for humans. Human fathers are an imperfect reflection of the creator, God is not a reflection of the imperfect human father. Jaramin fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 18:35
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Jaramin posted:The argument has nothing to do with the existence or logic of God, we're debating if God can exhibit the qualities on mercy/loving kindness and wrath/judgement simultaneously while acting as the prototypical example of fatherhood for humans. Human fathers are an imperfect reflection of the creator, God is not a reflection of the imperfect human father.
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Jul 14, 2014 18:45
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I'm dumb. I'm going to blame it on poor reading comprehension and a 102 degree fever.
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Jul 14, 2014 18:46
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Jaramin posted:I'm dumb. I'm going to blame it on poor reading comprehension and a 102 degree fever.
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Jul 14, 2014 18:47
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May God's love be around you and TAKE SOME NSAIDS!
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Jul 14, 2014 18:51
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I'm actually feeling much better, yesterday it was 104 degrees! I'm drugging myself up and have chugged over a gallon of water today alone, I'll hopefully sleep it off tonight or this afternoon.
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Jul 14, 2014 19:04
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Cythereal posted:Personally, I believe in both. My parents love me deeply, but they've never hesitated to call me out when I've made bad choices. Well, yeah, but if you take "loving vs. judging" as a binary or a continuum and apply it to Christians that you know, you might be surprised at how striking of a differentiator it can be. When I think of people who view God as "judging" I think much more about people who are socially conservative and believe that the more important aspect of God is the fire and brimstone stuff. It's the reason I posted that quote in response to the question of why people who had children out of wedlock would attend a church that condemns such behavior using very strong language: they are attracted in some way to that feeling of judgment.
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Jul 14, 2014 22:52
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Lutha Mahtin posted:Well, yeah, but if you take "loving vs. judging" as a binary or a continuum and apply it to Christians that you know, you might be surprised at how striking of a differentiator it can be. When I think of people who view God as "judging" I think much more about people who are socially conservative and believe that the more important aspect of God is the fire and brimstone stuff. It's the reason I posted that quote in response to the question of why people who had children out of wedlock would attend a church that condemns such behavior using very strong language: they are attracted in some way to that feeling of judgment. Well, given some of the conversations about hymnody and liturgical music in this thread, we've got judgment of our own, haha.
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Jul 15, 2014 00:27
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I've always struggled with the idea of God's judgement (see my earlier post about the Last Judgement icon), which is why I'm always grateful I learned about Isaac of Syria when I did. I wish he were easier to find in translation (although I did eventually find a hard copy of an older translation on Lulu, and an ebook seems to have sprung up that reprints it with modernized English). You have no idea how many times I've been tempted to dump quotes from Isaac's homilies whenever Jack Chick comes up in the Terrible Webcomics Megathread.
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Jul 15, 2014 01:39
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