Magic: The Gathering: The Megathread: Tenth Edition

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Thirteen Orphans: Dec 2, 2012; I am a writer, a doctor, a nuclear physicist and a theoretical philosopher. But above all, I am a man, a hopelessly inquisitive man, just like you.

I used to play M:tG casually with friends, I mostly bought pre-constructed decks and used those, so I know the basics of play. I've been thinking about getting into Magic Online, but was wondering if there was a goon presence on there, and also when a good time to get in would be, I think I heard a new set is being released soon so I don't want to go in and then in a week all my cards are old news and I'll need new ones for games.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:08

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 17:37

Archenteron: Nov 3, 2006

TheKingofSprings posted:

Maro must fall for the Birds to fly again.

Ken Nagle must become the new Magic Man.

If there was a payable price to bring back Odyssey-esque Bird Tribal...

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:08

Zoness: Jul 24, 2011; Talk to the hand.; Grimey Drawer

Incarnate Dao posted:

I used to play M:tG casually with friends, I mostly bought pre-constructed decks and used those, so I know the basics of play. I've been thinking about getting into Magic Online, but was wondering if there was a goon presence on there, and also when a good time to get in would be, I think I heard a new set is being released soon so I don't want to go in and then in a week all my cards are old news and I'll need new ones for games.

You should play against me in Modern and Legacy on MODO.

(Actually you don't want to do this at all).

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:14

Gensuki: Sep 2, 2011

Are there any (good) Legendary creatures with X in their casting costs?

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:23

Zoness: Jul 24, 2011; Talk to the hand.; Grimey Drawer

Gensuki posted:

Are there any (good) Legendary creatures with X in their casting costs?

Maga, Traitor to Mortals saw play in a dominant deck in his standard format, so I'm gonna say that's pretty good.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:24

Nibble: Dec 28, 2003; if we don't, remember me

Gensuki posted:

Are there any (good) Legendary creatures with X in their casting costs?

There are three: http://magiccards.info/query?q=t%3Alegendary+t%3Acreature+mana%3Ax&v=card&s=cname

Maga's the only one worthy of note, really.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:26

Cernunnos: Sep 2, 2011; ppbbbbttttthhhhh~

Grenzo springs to mind.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:27

Elyv: Jun 14, 2013

Maga wasn't so much a creature as it was a fireball that could be fetched with Weird Harvest or Drift of Phantasms, though.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:32

Zoness: Jul 24, 2011; Talk to the hand.; Grimey Drawer

Elyv posted:

Maga wasn't so much a creature as it was a fireball that could be fetched with Weird Harvest or Drift of Phantasms, though.

The body was relevant sometimes, if not only as an additional target for Weird Harvest, but also a 19/19 would be pretty hard to deal with on-board in case you couldn't hit lethal for whatever reason. Invoke the Firemind also existed as a 3 CMC target after Guildpact - each card had its advantages and disadvantages.

Also given that Muddle the Mixture was a relevant counterspell in that format, being a creature fireball as opposed to a spell fireball was relevant in and of itself

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:37

Anil Dikshit: Apr 11, 2007

Snacksmaniac posted:

Zvi said Damnation was a mistake and the man found nachos at a PT event where no nachos were sold. I trust him.

First, I need to know the story behind this. Second, I love the username/post combo.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:38

Zoness: Jul 24, 2011; Talk to the hand.; Grimey Drawer

kizudarake posted:

First, I need to know the story behind this. Second, I love the username/post combo.

It's a uhh, livejournal post apparently. Unsourced for the safety of others, but:

quote:

Damnation is a mistake. It is a mistake that Standard will have to live with for two years. It is a mistake that Extended will have to live with for seven. It is one Legacy will have to live with forever. That was my opinion at the time. That is what I told everyone who would listen, and everyone who wouldn't listen. And that is my opinion now. Printing this card severely damages the position of creatures in all of these formats, it makes Blue/Black a monster and it cripples white as anything but a beatdown or minor utility splash color. It is very bad for the game. That does not mean that it will "break" any format, which it won't. I don't have a deck from my time at Wizards that can prove any of this. This is all theory. And of course, the people will adapt. Life will go on. But it will be less interesting, it will be less colorful and less dynamic than it would otherwise have been.

My greatest regret from my time at Wizards is that I could not build the deck or find the argument that would convince those with the power to pull this card that it should not have been printed. In that sense, I take full responsibility. I was brought in to stop this sort of thing from happeneing, I was on the development team, and I failed. Now keep in mind, these are very, very smart people and they are quite good at what they do. They had arguments for their position that the card would be fine. I didn't do my job of proving the card was a problem. And it will certainly get people talking and help sell the set. If you're not excited by this card, check your Magic pulse. It may be dead. Aaron is downplaying when he says this was an extremely hard set to develop. There's also risk in playing it too safe, like I did on the first set I worked on, Cold Snap. And I know looking back that in general I took too conservative a viewpoint with respect to tournament level cards. So I hope that I am wrong, and all this does is excite the players. I know that Mark is right that it is a great way to generate that excitement and I can see why he is giddy. But if you read his article carefully, he tells you exactly why the card made it in: It was deemed too important to the set to let my concerns get in the way.

U/B Teachings, U/B Thopter Depths, etc were decks that would dominate Standard and Extended. I'm not sure how much Damnation on its own had an effect on the existence of either of these decks.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:42

jhorphear: Apr 24, 2013; Ask me about telling people not to change my avatar

Zonekeeper posted:

As loving dorky as they are, a fanny pack seems like it would be your friend here. Keeping your cards in a pouch that's strapped to your waist at all times seems like a better way to keep track of them than putting them in an easily lost/stolen backpack or messenger bag.

Cargo shorts! You might not be getting a handy while wearing them, but they are functional. Besides, most women that play magic look like orcs anyway.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:45

kingcobweb: Apr 16, 2005

Zoness posted:

It's a uhh, livejournal post apparently. Unsourced for the safety of others, but:

U/B Teachings, U/B Thopter Depths, etc were decks that would dominate Standard and Extended. I'm not sure how much Damnation on its own had an effect on the existence of either of these decks.

I played a ton of standard during this era. Damnation was really important. It wasn't a four-of you'd see constantly (wrath rarely is), but its presence was felt. A control deck having access to just a couple swings so many matchups.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:46

Zoness: Jul 24, 2011; Talk to the hand.; Grimey Drawer

kingcobweb posted:

I played a ton of standard during this era. Damnation was really important. It wasn't a four-of you'd see constantly (wrath rarely is), but its presence was felt. A control deck having access to just a couple swings so many matchups.

Yeah, Damnation was certainly a strong card, but the Teferi-Teachings engine and the Urborg-Tendrils engine, I feel, were also key to the decks in question. U/B Teachings was probably the best deck in standard though, a place it may not have occupied if not for Damnation, sure.

But, I mean, Damnation couldn't stop Frenetic Sliver in block.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:47

Mercury Crusader: Apr 20, 2005; You know they say that all demons are created equal, but you look at me and you look at Pyro Jack and you can see that statement is not true, hee-ho!

Gensuki posted:

Are there any (good) Legendary creatures with X in their casting costs?

Grenzo is cool, though I'm just using it in an EDH deck. About the only way I've been able to abuse his creature fetching ability is when I'm using Goblin Charbelcher (sometimes after playing Goblin Recruiter).

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:48

LordSaturn: Aug 12, 2007; sadly unfunny

kingcobweb posted:

I played a ton of standard during this era. Damnation was really important. It wasn't a four-of you'd see constantly (wrath rarely is), but its presence was felt. A control deck having access to just a couple swings so many matchups.

More importantly, what made it so much more of a mistake than Wrath of God? I would think the answer has more to do with what was wrong with white at the time.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:52

jscolon2.0: Jul 9, 2001; With great payroll, comes great disappointment.

Make the hornets hasty, and die that turn. Boom. Green sucks at flyers still, and now it's just a green, fights as it dies card.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:54

Zoness: Jul 24, 2011; Talk to the hand.; Grimey Drawer

LordSaturn posted:

More importantly, what made it so much more of a mistake than Wrath of God? I would think the answer has more to do with what was wrong with white at the time.

Aside from Wrath (and in recent memory, detention sphere and revelation), black generally has better control tools than white does. Also Tendrils of Corruption existed in that format and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth was hitting play in the same set. U/B teachings, on top of having a great toolkit of one-for-one's, also picked up a wrath.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:56

Anil Dikshit: Apr 11, 2007

Zoness posted:

It's a uhh, livejournal post apparently. Unsourced for the safety of others, but:

U/B Teachings, U/B Thopter Depths, etc were decks that would dominate Standard and Extended. I'm not sure how much Damnation on its own had an effect on the existence of either of these decks.

That's not the part I wanted the story about.

Specifically, I want to know about the nachos.

Anil Dikshit fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jul 15, 2014

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:57

Cernunnos: Sep 2, 2011; ppbbbbttttthhhhh~

jscolon2.0 posted:

Make the hornets hasty, and die that turn. Boom. Green sucks at flyers still, and now it's just a green, fights as it dies card.

That's a Red effect. :qqsay:

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:57

Elyv: Jun 14, 2013

LordSaturn posted:

More importantly, what made it so much more of a mistake than Wrath of God? I would think the answer has more to do with what was wrong with white at the time.

Basically the only good white cards in Standard at the time(for the previous few years) were giant fliers(stuff like Exalted Angel or Yosei) and Wraths; aggro decks tended not to be white at the time and white's slice of the pie was a little small. Wizards buffed small/midrange white creatures after that and added ORing effects and probably a few other things that I can't remember offhand.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 22:57

ThirdEmperor: Aug 7, 2013; BEHOLD MY GLORY

AND THEN

BRAWL ME

jassi007 posted:

How about colossal whale. It is not a good card, but flavor justification for a blue creature exiling a target creature is stupid. Hur its a whale it swallowed him. Blue deals with creatures by bouncing or top of library not exiling.

Maro also thinks blue should have more exile. In fact, he says so during the discussion of Hornet Queen. :smuggo:

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:00

LordSaturn: Aug 12, 2007; sadly unfunny

Right, so Zvi's story is about how Damnation contributed to UB combo/control decks being ridiculous instead of being hamstrung (to whatever extent they would have been) by splashing white mana. This is a far cry from "Damnation can never be reprinted".

ThirdEmperor posted:

Maro also thinks blue should have more exile. In fact, he says so during the discussion of Hornet Queen.

Maro has this hilarious habit of forgetting to defend the color pie when it means blue gets something it shouldn't have,

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:00

Archenteron: Nov 3, 2006

Nibble posted:

There are three: http://magiccards.info/query?q=t%3Alegendary+t%3Acreature+mana%3Ax&v=card&s=cname

Maga's the only one worthy of note, really.

Kangee, Aerie Keeper is efectively a legendary with an X in its casting cost. :parrot:

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:01

Antifa Spacemarine: Jan 11, 2011; Tzeentch can suck it.

Cernunnos posted:

That's a Red effect.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=GROUNDBREAKER

:troll:

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:02

Zoness: Jul 24, 2011; Talk to the hand.; Grimey Drawer

Shaman Ooglaboogla posted:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=GROUNDBREAKER

Yes of course if you name a 'color' rule, you can post a Planar Chaos card that breaks it.

Actually, is there a 'color rule' that Planar Chaos doesn't break?

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:04

ThirdEmperor: Aug 7, 2013; BEHOLD MY GLORY

AND THEN

BRAWL ME

LordSaturn posted:

Maro has this hilarious habit of forgetting to defend the color pie when it means blue gets something it shouldn't have,

I'm guessing Aetherling and Delver are in that category? I'm honestly not even sure where blue's slice of the color pie ends, it's so vaguely defined now.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:05

Serperoth: Feb 21, 2013

ΛΛ AEtherling is pretty blue I'd say, no question, but I don't think Insectile Aberration should have been blue, if that makes sense.

Zoness posted:

Yes of course if you name a 'color' rule, you can post a Planar Chaos card that breaks it.

Actually, is there a 'color rule' that Planar Chaos doesn't break?

I was going to say "Blue is OP", but from what I know Planar Chaos gave a lot of nice goodies to non-blue colours (Harmonize, etc), often by planeshifting blue cards so... :v:

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:06

Cernunnos: Sep 2, 2011; ppbbbbttttthhhhh~

Zoness posted:

Yes of course if you name a 'color' rule, you can post a Planar Chaos card that breaks it.

Actually, is there a 'color rule' that Planar Chaos doesn't break?

No but that was kinda the point.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:06

Chorocojo: Sep 25, 2005; Legendary Enchantment Creature -- Bird God

ThirdEmperor posted:

Maro also thinks blue should have more exile. In fact, he says so during the discussion of Hornet Queen.

To be fair, that's in regard to polymorph effects like Polymorph and Rapid Hybridization. He says they should either exile or put on the bottom of the library.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:10

ThirdEmperor: Aug 7, 2013; BEHOLD MY GLORY

AND THEN

BRAWL ME

^^the smuggo is for a facetious tone

Except Aetherling does stuff blue really shouldn't. It's got the ability to power boost, which is something blue doesn't do, and being all three of big, evasive and difficult to remove, it's just way too good a creature for the 'non-creature' color to get.

But then, I'd defend Groundbreaker as an OK green card, because it fits in with what a stereotypical green deck does. I suppose the same argument can be made for Aetherling.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:12

Zoness: Jul 24, 2011; Talk to the hand.; Grimey Drawer

ThirdEmperor posted:

^^the smuggo is for a facetious tone

Except Aetherling does stuff blue really shouldn't. It's got the ability to power boost, which is something blue doesn't do, and being all three of big, evasive and difficult to remove, it's just way too good a creature for the 'non-creature' color to get.

But then, I'd defend Groundbreaker as an OK green card, because it fits in with what a stereotypical green deck does. I suppose the same argument can be made for Aetherling.

The card is an homage to Morphling, but similar arguments can be applied to both. It should be notedthat it doesn't actually change its total stats, and that +X/-X , -X/+X, or -X/-0 can be identified as blue. There's technically nothing that 'breaks color' with blue on Aetherling.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:17

Cernunnos: Sep 2, 2011; ppbbbbttttthhhhh~

The +1/-1 and -1/+1 pump is on several blue cards actually. And Blue has been able to pump in weird ways like that for a while.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:18

Serperoth: Feb 21, 2013

ThirdEmperor posted:

^^the smuggo is for a facetious tone

Except Aetherling does stuff blue really shouldn't. It's got the ability to power boost, which is something blue doesn't do, and being all three of big, evasive and difficult to remove, it's just way too good a creature for the 'non-creature' color to get.

But then, I'd defend Groundbreaker as an OK green card, because it fits in with what a stereotypical green deck does. I suppose the same argument can be made for Aetherling.

Blue is also the colour of change, which is what the -lings do. It boosts power, but detracts from toughness, it's not firebreathing or +1/+1, which is a blue thing to do. And blue doesn't get creatures that are both cheap and efficient (Delver/Aberration aside :v:

), and AEtherling, at 6 mana, with every ability costing something, is definitely not cheap.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:19

jscolon2.0: Jul 9, 2001; With great payroll, comes great disappointment.

ThirdEmperor posted:

^^the smuggo is for a facetious tone

Except Aetherling does stuff blue really shouldn't. It's got the ability to power boost, which is something blue doesn't do, and being all three of big, evasive and difficult to remove, it's just way too good a creature for the 'non-creature' color to get.

But then, I'd defend Groundbreaker as an OK green card, because it fits in with what a stereotypical green deck does. I suppose the same argument can be made for Aetherling.

I think power boost is in all colors, just different. Green gets Rootwallas, red gets fire breathing, black gets shades, and white/blue get power at expense of toughness and vice versa.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:20

rabidsquid: Oct 11, 2004; LOVES THE KOG

Cernunnos posted:

That's a Red effect.

Hasty dying hornets showed up way back in Stronghold on an artifact. A 'Hornet Canon' if you will.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:23

Orange Fluffy Sheep: Jul 26, 2008; Bad EXP received

rabidsquid posted:

Hasty dying hornets showed up way back in Stronghold on an artifact. A 'Hornet Canon' if you will.

But is Hornet Cannon canon? :confused:

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:33

Ojetor: Aug 4, 2010; Return of the Sensei

Zoness posted:

Yes of course if you name a 'color' rule, you can post a Planar Chaos card that breaks it.

Actually, is there a 'color rule' that Planar Chaos doesn't break?

There should be several. Off the top of my head, red and black didn't get a way to kill enchantments.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:42

Elyv: Jun 14, 2013

Zoness posted:

Yes of course if you name a 'color' rule, you can post a Planar Chaos card that breaks it.

Actually, is there a 'color rule' that Planar Chaos doesn't break?

There are way too many color rules to break all of them in a single small set.

Did any non-blue colors even get a hard counter?

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:45

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 17:37

Spiderdrake: May 12, 2001

Yeah Maro's complaining about an insect being off-color just falls flat every time someone mentions Delver.

And blue definitely shouldn't be getting exile or destroy effects, unless they're a polymorph style effect. (It also should be forced to share exile on the stack, but they're so reluctant to do that)

jscolon2.0 posted:

I think power boost is in all colors, just different. Green gets Rootwallas, red gets fire breathing, black gets shades, and white/blue get power at expense of toughness and vice versa.

White and Black tier shades, but white usually gifts it via enchantments (Blessing et al?) or other cards, or pays for permanent +1/+1 counters, so to speak. White usually gets specific toughness pumping as well.

# ? Jul 15, 2014 23:53

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