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Wraethulhu or whatever is one of those games that nobody's going to run even ironically because that would mean they'd have to actually read it. Not even in a "THIS IS SO HORRIBLE" way, it's just largely insipid and banal outside of androgynous acid-ejaculating flower penis rape vampires which is literally the only thing anyone ever remembers about it.
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Jul 16, 2014 09:17
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Kai Tave posted:Wraethulhu or whatever is one of those games that nobody's going to run even ironically because that would mean they'd have to actually read it. Not even in a "THIS IS SO HORRIBLE" way, it's just largely insipid and banal outside of androgynous acid-ejaculating flower penis rape vampires which is literally the only thing anyone ever remembers about it. I am sticking a needle in a Kai Tave voodoo doll right now, and the needle is called "THE KEVIN AND KELL RPG."
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Jul 16, 2014 09:40
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Evil Mastermind posted:It's worth pointing out that Urban Shadows rewords them as "when you share a moment of intimacy, physical or emotional..." Yeah, that's a much better trigger. I should go over the core/limited playbooks and just see about changing the sex moves to fit it. Galaga Galaxian posted:Alright, I'm home. Lemon Curdistan, was there anything specific you were curious about regarding Warbirds? Just general stuff, really - do the rules look like they're good, and are there any I can steal for other projects. 
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Jul 16, 2014 09:51
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Man, for a second I read that as "THE KENAN AND KEL RPG" and got my hopes up.
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Jul 16, 2014 09:56
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Kai Tave posted:Man, for a second I read that as "THE KENAN AND KEL RPG" and got my hopes up. Everyone does, the first time.
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Jul 16, 2014 09:57
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When you love orange soda, roll +Kel.
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Jul 16, 2014 10:17
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Just general stuff, really - do the rules look like they're good, and are there any I can steal for other projects. Warbirds has a simple but fun approach to air combat. The setting is interesting, strange, and well-thought-out. It actually justifies the Crimson Skies vibe in-setting. The system is sort of eh in any case where you're not flying. One could easily rip out the "moves" that exist for piloting and put them into another system.
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Jul 16, 2014 10:26
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Gau posted:Warbirds has a simple but fun approach to air combat. The setting is interesting, strange, and well-thought-out. It actually justifies the Crimson Skies vibe in-setting. The system is sort of eh in any case where you're not flying. One could easily rip out the "moves" that exist for piloting and put them into another system. That's pretty much exactly what I wanted to know, so thanks, I'll grab it. In other news, my copy of Age of Rebellion arrived and it weighs 1.8kg. 
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Jul 16, 2014 12:40
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Lemon Curdistan posted:In other news, my copy of Age of Rebellion arrived and it weighs 1.8kg. 
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Jul 16, 2014 13:53
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FMguru posted:The Guide To Glorantha (shipping now!) weighs in at 6 kilograms. 
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Jul 16, 2014 13:55
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3 hardcover volumes, 1000 pages, 14.5 pounds, and $200 worth of pure Glorantha goodness (including the separate atlas with 117 full-color maps). The PDFs came out late last week and I've pretty much been doing this ever since: 
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Jul 16, 2014 14:01
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FMguru posted:The Guide To Glorantha (shipping now!) weighs in at 6 kilograms. ...how? Is the cover made out of lead? FMguru posted:3 hardcover volumes, 1000 pages, 14.5 pounds, and $200 worth of pure Glorantha goodness (including the separate atlas with 117 full-color maps). Okay, that makes more sense. That's three books, not one book weighing 6kg.
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Jul 16, 2014 14:01
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Kai Tave posted:Wraethulhu or whatever is one of those games that nobody's going to run even ironically because that would mean they'd have to actually read it. Not even in a "THIS IS SO HORRIBLE" way, it's just largely insipid and banal outside of androgynous acid-ejaculating flower penis rape vampires which is literally the only thing anyone ever remembers about it. MadScientistWorking posted:The community is just a subset of the geek culture which is equally just as horrible. I come across this stuff on a regular basis and I don't actively look for it. How do you avoid it? Unless I post on theRPGsite.
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Jul 16, 2014 14:04
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Halloween Jack posted:Based on Darren's review, I'm going to say that Wraeththu's writing is beyond insipid. Not the source novels, I mean, but the snippets of text he posted were like a really, really dorky middle-schooler's idea of what's totally cool and dramatic and funny and whatnot. It's so bad it gives me fremdscham on behalf of the writers, and the writers are already people obsessed with androgynous bishie mutants. Actually, there are non-horrible bits in the Wraeththu book — the fanfic guide* part of it is quite good. As a fan of the novels, I really like background information on the setting and its elements contained in the book. The illustrations for the "clans" are good, and although the art is quite mediocre, I'm quite fond of glam-bishies with big hair (which enables me to appreciate it in the same fashion that grognards like poo poo by Erol Otus). *If I remember correctly, the book was originally meant to be a fanfic guide/setting bible for the novels — then along came Gabriel Strange and his bizarre rage-boner for White Wolf and the AD&D heartbreaker of a system he wrote in college that was a ~perfect match~ for the source material. If Wraeththu were an AW hack written by a non-creep, I think it wouldn't have such a bad rep. AW's sex moves fit perfectly with the way aruna (i.e. androgy-bishie mystical sex) appears in the novels (its core is about intimacy and relationship-building). The overarching scarcity theme enforced by the writing and rules is perfect for emulating the kinds of events that take place in the first novel (which is all about discovery and survival in a recently-hosed world). The Wraeththu RPG wastes a ton of space with crap like detailed sword-fighting and magic systems — although swording and magicking happen in the novels, it's never about those things. It makes me sad that AW didn't exist when this RPG was in the works — a focused system would be able to showcase the source material's strong points.
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Jul 16, 2014 15:55
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Nancy_Noxious posted:*If I remember correctly, the book was originally meant to be a fanfic guide/setting bible for the novels — then along came Gabriel Strange and his bizarre rage-boner for White Wolf and the AD&D heartbreaker of a system he wrote in college that was a ~perfect match~ for the source material. Surprise, surprise, it was warmed-over AD&D with a zillion things bolted on to the side that bragged about breakthrough innovations that actually dated back to original RuneQuest and Rolemaster.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:18
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Hi, I'm Sage. I'm here to talk about the discussion I've had with Gau Zak, and others. I entered into this trying to grant the benefit of a doubt in many ways. The thing that most made me question the accusations against Zak were the long line of internet telephone that did lead to some accusations that appear to be based on Gau's experience which are not accurate. With no clear starting point it all seemed like some huge misunderstanding. It was suggested I contact Gau, which I did, and tried to do very carefully, since this could be a sensitive topic. Gau and I exchanged some messages and he was helpful and open, which I greatly appreciate. After our first exchange on Monday, I continued posting to the thread I started, and misrepresented Gau due to a reading that was too kind: I went into the discussion while trying to give everyone the benefit of a doubt and kind of implicitly assumed there must be some misunderstanding here. In the meantime I'd sent a question to Gau clarifying some things. I should have waited for his response which made it clear that he feels Zak acted deliberately, that nothing he said was a mistake. That's a huge mistake on my part. I've already apologized on that thread and clearly stated what Gau said and apologized directly to Gau. I don't know if this makes me as bad as the rest of this godforsaken hobby. I'd also like to clearly state that this is _my_ action, not Adam's. I deserve all the blame here. He only even found out that I'd done this because people blamed him for it. I'm new here, and unlikely to be able to keep up with another forum for long, but I welcome people to contact me on G+ (https://plus.google.com/+SageLaTorra/posts) or twitter (https://twitter.com/olde_fortran).
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Jul 16, 2014 16:40
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SunAndSpring posted:I kinda disagree on the whole "fantasy has Randian subtext" thing, at least in regards to party-based tabletop gaming, as it teaches and requires cooperation rather than stingy Objectivist nonsense. And most people I've known usually roleplay as regular Joes and Janes: blacksmith's sons, farmer's daughters, etc. I mean, yeah, people sometimes like to play as a noble and experience the high life once in a while, but most of the time they just like to play as themselves with more muscles or access to sorcery. It's not so much the "objectivist" end of libertarianism, but your typical swords-and-sorcery fantasy world usually contains the civilization myth/White Man's Burden thing pretty heavily. D&D, any edition, maps pretty closely to old Westerns. That's not to say that it's not cool/fun to play, but it bears a sharp lookout for ethical issues/harm to the players. It can sometimes be like enjoying an old ridiculous pulp novel (which is more of an inspiration for D&D than anything else) and suddenly running across a racial slur or (my favorite) a full-throated defense of imperialism as necessary to defeat the communist menace.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:57
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There's a very easy 2-step process to rising above the current toxic circlejerk dominating this hobby. 1) when people say they're being harassed, take them at their word first, not their harassers. 2) when people speak against diversity in the hobby (be it games' subject matter, their artwork, the people playing or creating them) recognize it for what it is under the excuses: bigotry. Somebody else better at words and socially acceptable interaction will probably couch it in more pleasant or forgiving words, but that's my two cents.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:24
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Tollymain posted:There's a very easy 2-step process to rising above the current toxic circlejerk dominating this hobby. I would add a step 0 about not getting involved/writing huge pedantic rants/generally letting the lovely people affect your game and your life unless and until steps 1 or 2 come into contact with you. This is my gut instinct and I'm very possibly wrong to suggest it, but goons who play elfgames being bad at social cues is hardly new.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:33
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Captain Walker posted:I would add a step 0 about not getting involved/writing huge pedantic rants/generally letting the lovely people affect your game and your life unless and until steps 1 or 2 come into contact with you. This is my gut instinct and I'm very possibly wrong to suggest it, but goons who play elfgames being bad at social cues is hardly new. I honestly don't feel like pretending lovely things aren't happening is a good plan.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:36
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So here's a thing: Even if we were to operate on the assumption that Those Two Consultants are totally innocent of racism/homophobia/transphobia/harassment, we're still left with two people who are amazingly terrible about elfgames and pretty thoroughly unprofessional, and over the course of this whole kerfuffle they've demonstrated that even more than usual, which is saying something. I mean, the lady from Amy's Baking Company (from that infamous episode of Kitchen Nightmares) probably isn't racist or whatever, but people who care about, you know, professionalism and sanity aren't exactly lining up to hire her for catering.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:47
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Olde_fortran posted:Hi, I'm Sage. I'm here to talk about the discussion I've had with Gau Zak, and others. Hi Sage! I read through your Google+ thread and it was frankly terrifying. I understand the need for clarification and for finding out context, and I respect that line of inquiry. However, I do have concern with the manner in which Zak et al conduct themselves in such discussions, insofar as there is no room for discussion. I don't want a hugbox to discuss my favorite hobby, but at the same time condemnations and hellfire and accusations of people being liars do not lead to favorable terms for discussion. I can't speak for the hobby as a whole, but the trends I read about here and elsewhere trouble me. I'm a straight white male but the group I run games for is predominantly female, and some of the stories that they have told me about their experiences at conventions and in prior gaming groups are disgusting and frankly disturbing, and I am interested in providing a fun environment to game. I don't like supporting people that are driven by ego and prejudice to try and dictate terms and bully their opposition, and I'd rather not play games they've written for and support them financially. I'm concerned. I'm far from the only one. In the wake of this chain of discussion, what are your thoughts?
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Jul 16, 2014 17:49
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Captain Walker posted:I would add a step 0 about not getting involved/writing huge pedantic rants/generally letting the lovely people affect your game and your life unless and until steps 1 or 2 come into contact with you. This is my gut instinct and I'm very possibly wrong to suggest it, but goons who play elfgames being bad at social cues is hardly new.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:52
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TheSpookyDanger posted:I honestly don't feel like pretending lovely things aren't happening is a good plan. ImpactVector posted:The first step to change any kind of social status quo is people getting mad. Fair enough. I have white straight privilege so I'm not really qualified to comment, I guess.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:56
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Olde_fortran posted:Hi, I'm Sage. Welcome to the forums, unfortunately this now makes you an official member of the Outrage Brigade TM One of us, one of us!
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Jul 16, 2014 17:59
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SageNytell posted:However, I do have concern with the manner in which Zak et al conduct themselves in such discussions, insofar as there is no room for discussion. This is the biggest problem; they don't want discussions, they want to say something and then be congratulated on how right they are. It's easy to miss that if you're just engaging with them casually, but all you have to do is look into Pundit's blog history or how Zak treats any sort of criticism to see it.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:06
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Lemon Curdistan posted:...how? Is the cover made out of lead? If I ever get off my rear end and make an actual RPG or something, I'm going to make one option be just a massive loving tome as fitting a wizard tower, and charge out the rear end for it because all I'd need was one nerd who's bad with money to make bank, and I feel it's always a safe bet to bet on us nerds being bad with money. Captain Walker posted:I would add a step 0 about not getting involved/writing huge pedantic rants/generally letting the lovely people affect your game and your life unless and until steps 1 or 2 come into contact with you. This is my gut instinct and I'm very possibly wrong to suggest it, but goons who play elfgames being bad at social cues is hardly new. The main issue is, to repeat my last post, the community is so tiny and overlapping that probably in some way this lovely poo poo does 'affect you'. Like not personally all the time but the people ITT who've been harassed, I like them a lot, I think they're all good guys and gals, it bothers me that people I consider myself friendly with got treated like poo poo for saying 'maybe we should be less lovely'. Worse, for them, as already said, aside from a couple really secure little bubbles that dude is treated as if his stupid opinion is worth anything in most other places, because of how tiny and incestuous the community is. It's not like gaming where if I think Jeff on Playstation Forums is a huge turd, chances are he won't be bothering me over on Nintendo World or whatever. I love this hobby, I've made a ton of great friends through it, and the people in these little bubbles I build for myself are most all cool and not at all shitbags in any way beyond 'it kinda bugs me that this guy doesn't chip in for food most of the times when I know he can' minor poo poo. That doesn't change that outside the bubbles there's a lot of crap to wade through, and that's not awesome for those of us in the minority groups. Traditional Games: Like a cozy bubble on an open sewer
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Jul 16, 2014 18:07
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Olde_fortran posted:Hi, I'm Sage. I'm here to talk about the discussion I've had with Gau Zak, and others. As I commented on the last page this hobby isn't as bad as some people claim. And ridiculous jeremiads, false accusations, and know-nothing crusading do precisely one thing. They mean that the people reporting lovely behaviour can be ignored because they literally can't be trusted. Lying about other people is a form of lovely behaviour. It also gets in the way of the people actually trying to do anything about the problem. Thanks, Sage, for taking the actual time to look into what was going on. And making a mistake doesn't make you bad, just someone who made a mistake. What matters is what you do next. This hobby is only godforsaken because we killed Lolth and took her stuff back in 1980. That doesn't make this hobby an exemplar. It's full of privileged and poorly socialised nerds. And more needs doing. But seriously, when it comes to representation there are two and a half giants in the industry - Paizo try, WotC have been trying ever since the artists conspiracy leading to the Deaths of Redgar, and White Wolf -> Onyx Path have been trying to lead the way since the 90s. It doesn't mean that they don't do very problematic things (WoD: Gypsies, Exalted and ... let's not go there, WotC and the art direction that lead to the Deaths of Redgar, and the exact wording on their trans-affirming statement (that quite literally had a couple of transsexual people I know dancing round the room), Paizo and Varisians and Adventure Path Lesbian Villains). And they should be held to account when they fail to meet their standards. The problem is either bit players working in tiny groups, or individual freelancers. No serious part of the industry appears to be as evil as Hobby Lobby. And people launching Jeremiads as opposed to clean up operations need to stop sitting in their parents' basements and leave the imaginary worlds for the real one. And regarding Sword & Sorcery, one of the roots is Sword & Planet - i.e. John Carter. And from memory his fourth descriptive sentence was that his slaves worshipped the ground he stood on. It's a very American power fantasy.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:08
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SageNytell posted:Hi Sage! I read through your Google+ thread and it was frankly terrifying. I understand the need for clarification and for finding out context, and I respect that line of inquiry. However, I do have concern with the manner in which Zak et al conduct themselves in such discussions, insofar as there is no room for discussion. I don't want a hugbox to discuss my favorite hobby, but at the same time condemnations and hellfire and accusations of people being liars do not lead to favorable terms for discussion. My thoughts are a jumbled mess, to be honest. My primary feeling right now is that I have done things wrong, and will likely in the future. I think this is important to realize because in part in that thread I tried to position myself as enforcing what is or isn't true. I'm not going to do that anymore. I do think that many things in this whole debacle have spiraled out of control. The first few references to Gau that I saw do not match up with what he told me in person. There's so much disinformation here that it's painful. I hope to be a person who stands up for everybody having a place at the gaming table, but like I said above I have screwed up and will again, most likely. I can't claim to be that person, but I aspire to be. I also feel like something has to change here. I don't know what, but this cycle of fighting just keeps going. I'm not smart enough or involved enough to know how to end it, but I hope somebody does.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:08
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Captain Walker posted:Fair enough. I have white straight privilege so I'm not really qualified to comment, I guess. Hi, I don't give a poo poo about this and it has nothing to do with me, but has anyone tried just stop being mad when their friends and other innocent people are insulted and harassed constantly in our tiny hobby/industry? Welp, that's my two cents as someone who doesn't give a poo poo about this and who has nothing to do with it, have a nice day.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:08
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Olde_fortran posted:Hi, I'm Sage. I'm here to talk about the discussion I've had with Gau Zak, and others.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:12
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neonchameleon posted:As I commented on the last page this hobby isn't as bad as some people claim. And ridiculous jeremiads, false accusations, and know-nothing crusading do precisely one thing. They mean that the people reporting lovely behaviour can be ignored because they literally can't be trusted. Lying about other people is a form of lovely behaviour. It also gets in the way of the people actually trying to do anything about the problem. I'm glad you're here to tell the people struggling with hate and marginalization that it could be worse, we could be dealing with Hobby Lobby. Also telling them to get out of mom's basement because poo poo is just in their heads. You patronizing rear end in a top hat.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:14
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And to cut against my previous rant:Guilty Spork posted:So here's a thing: Even if we were to operate on the assumption that Those Two Consultants are totally innocent of racism/homophobia/transphobia/harassment, we're still left with two people who are amazingly terrible about elfgames and pretty thoroughly unprofessional, and over the course of this whole kerfuffle they've demonstrated that even more than usual, which is saying something. I mean, the lady from Amy's Baking Company (from that infamous episode of Kitchen Nightmares) probably isn't racist or whatever, but people who care about, you know, professionalism and sanity aren't exactly lining up to hire her for catering. This is definitely true. SageNytell posted:I can't speak for the hobby as a whole, but the trends I read about here and elsewhere trouble me. I'm a straight white male but the group I run games for is predominantly female, and some of the stories that they have told me about their experiences at conventions and in prior gaming groups are disgusting and frankly disturbing, and I am interested in providing a fun environment to game. I don't like supporting people that are driven by ego and prejudice to try and dictate terms and bully their opposition, and I'd rather not play games they've written for and support them financially. And my rants just now weren't meant to say we don't have a problem. Call people on unacceptable behaviour. Like lying and bullying. And for the repeat offenders document it. A long ZakS blogpost with screenshots (I don't know where to start) would be worth ten thousand times more than all the handwringing.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:14
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Olde_fortran posted:My thoughts are a jumbled mess, to be honest. Speaking as someone who's gone through a similar thing myself (and got a well-deserved dope slap because of it), not to mention that I had to make a very similar post as yours a while back on G+, I will say that acknowledging your mistakes and trying to improve means a lot to me.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:18
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MadScientistWorking posted:So explain to me why it took Gau of all people to confirm that Zak actively harassed people despite the fact that others explicitly told you it happened to them? It may have had something to do with the fact that I was willing to discuss what happened to me in the first person and be patient as Sage tried to figure things out, instead of throwing out wild accusations about how Dungeon World was now a Bad Game because one of its creators had said something problematic on a social networking site. Are you really coming in here to not only troll the guy who is reversing his stance on a problematic statement, but also insult the victim of harassment?
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Jul 16, 2014 18:29
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neonchameleon posted:But seriously, when it comes to representation there are two and a half giants in the industry - Paizo try, WotC have been trying ever since the artists conspiracy leading to the Deaths of Redgar, and White Wolf -> Onyx Path have been trying to lead the way since the 90s. It doesn't mean that they don't do very problematic things (WoD: Gypsies, Exalted and ... let's not go there, WotC and the art direction that lead to the Deaths of Redgar, and the exact wording on their trans-affirming statement (that quite literally had a couple of transsexual people I know dancing round the room), Paizo and Varisians and Adventure Path Lesbian Villains). And they should be held to account when they fail to meet their standards. The problem is either bit players working in tiny groups, or individual freelancers. No serious part of the industry appears to be as evil as Hobby Lobby. And people launching Jeremiads as opposed to clean up operations need to stop sitting in their parents' basements and leave the imaginary worlds for the real one. This is an incredibly lovely thing to say (seriously, I'm pretty sure I saw GMS use that exact same "get out of your parents' basement" line) and it's also kind of wrong-headed because there are no "giants" in this non-industry. D&D Next was reportedly (by an interview with Mearls) worked on by a team of 15 people, half of which weren't involved in game design stuff at all. The biggest RPG in elftown had a whopping 7 people working on it. Yeah, that's 700% bigger than, say, the design team for Apocalypse World but dismissing the problem as "bit players working in tiny groups" completely misses the fact that everything in this hobby is made of bit players working in tiny groups, often incestuous tiny groups at that. Do you really think that people like the Pundit or Zak S would even have been acknowledged at all by WotC if that weren't the case? Two random assholes whose biggest claim to fame is "owns a blog about D&D?"
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Jul 16, 2014 18:33
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Things are getting pretty serious in here. This is only of tertiary relevance to Trad Games but it gave me a chuckle:
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Jul 16, 2014 18:39
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neonchameleon posted:As I commented on the last page this hobby isn't as bad as some people claim. And ridiculous jeremiads, false accusations, and know-nothing crusading do precisely one thing. They mean that the people reporting lovely behaviour can be ignored because they literally can't be trusted. Lying about other people is a form of lovely behaviour. It also gets in the way of the people actually trying to do anything about the problem. Yes, but what if instead you just got way the gently caress over yourself?
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Jul 16, 2014 18:40
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Gau posted:It may have had something to do with the fact that I was willing to discuss what happened to me in the first person and be patient as Sage tried to figure things out, instead of throwing out wild accusations about how Dungeon World was now a Bad Game because one of its creators had said something problematic on a social networking site. I'm glad you kept your head unlike those other uppity victims.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:41
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e; never mind Winson would probably give me an indian rugburn for this
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