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The prime directive is not 'no interfering with pre-warp civilisations', the prime directive is 'every civilisation has a right to its own development'. Ergo, if a civilisation tells you to butt out, you have to butt out. Warp Drive or some other form of interstellar travel (like the asteroid starship from TOS) is basically your civilisation choosing to become a member of the interstellar community and thus be Contacted.
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Jul 16, 2014 15:35
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Yeah, not touching pre-warp civilizations is some other rule. The prime directive is best rendered as "It ain't your turn to give a gently caress."
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Jul 16, 2014 15:41
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Grand Fromage posted:Sure, it's less likely. But we're talking geological timeframes, it will happen eventually. That's why I don't get why there isn't more effort put into GIANT SPACE ROCK defense, we absolutely know we will be hit by something massively destructive. Global Warming says hi
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Jul 16, 2014 16:47
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DrSunshine posted:That seems to be a pretty bad assumption, in my opinion. What if the species just wanted to colonize or exploit nearby worlds? At any rate, we often forget that the second tenet of the PD is "Non interference in the internal affairs of other civilizations". Which is even more poorly followed than the first, but that would, at least, justify not contacting the xenophobic warp-primitive aliens. e: I don't think they have to join the Federation to get them, either, though of course they might end up completely surrounded, outside of those reserved worlds, by Federation territory.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:12
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Gau posted:The problem is that what do you do? Reveal your existence to an entire civilization as you relocate them? Choose a small portion and put them through a holodeck scenario that disguises that they on a new planet? This was the episode which spurred the comment. The problem is their decision making process doesn't account for the cost of inaction at all. Will relocating these people potentially mess things up? Sure, but the alternative is their entire species dies in a catastrophe they can neither stop nor comprehend. Any evaluation of this scenario which ends in "well maybe they're just better off dead  " is incredibly condescending to the people being exterminated.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:46
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I agree from the perspective that the Enterprise-D was capable of carrying up to 14,000 passengers with a standard crew. On the other hand, imagine this happening on modern-day Earth. A starship appears in orbit, tells the entire world that it's going to be destroyed, and offers to save 14,000 people out of six billion. How do they decide? They can't just pick out random people and tear them away from their families and loved ones. What if they leave it up to us and let the United Nations choose how many people get chosen from each nation? What if the selection process is incredibly biased?
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Jul 16, 2014 18:57
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Gau posted:I agree from the perspective that the Enterprise-D was capable of carrying up to 14,000 passengers with a standard crew. On the other hand, imagine this happening on modern-day Earth. A starship appears in orbit, tells the entire world that it's going to be destroyed, and offers to save 14,000 people out of six billion. How do they decide? They can't just pick out random people and tear them away from their families and loved ones. What if they leave it up to us and let the United Nations choose how many people get chosen from each nation? What if the selection process is incredibly biased? This would be the basis of a really, incredibly interesting sci fi novel, in my opinion. I'd love to read something like that!
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Jul 16, 2014 19:02
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Honestly, it sounds kinda like that crappy 2012 movie, but with less aliens. Besides, everyone on this forum would definitely be on the B Arc.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:08
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I've always wondered what the Starfleet procedure for encountering an extremely hostile, but extremely primitive, race would be. Say, a big old Nebula class is doing a science thing when a ship from a nearby system pops in and starts threatening, then attacks, with spatial torpedoes and phase cannons that barely tickle the ship's shields.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:58
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Cythereal posted:I've always wondered what the Starfleet procedure for encountering an extremely hostile, but extremely primitive, race would be. Say, a big old Nebula class is doing a science thing when a ship from a nearby system pops in and starts threatening, then attacks, with spatial torpedoes and phase cannons that barely tickle the ship's shields. Wasn't there an episode in the early seasons of TNG that had an encounter like this? I think it was The Outrageous Okona. The Enterprise was fired upon by some hostile primitive aliens with lasers. I distinctly remember Data or someone saying "They are powering up their lasers." And Picard replied: "Lasers?"
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Jul 16, 2014 20:01
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Corrected. sonatinas fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 20:03
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sonatinas posted:Yeah their weapons had no effect on the shields but they all were just as serious as if they were being attached by Romulans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4JUxQe4P4g
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Jul 16, 2014 20:11
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"Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields."  And a million lovely Trek vs. Wars fanfics were born that night.
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Jul 16, 2014 20:17
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I must be thinking of a different episode then. I think it was the one where the kidnapped human boy adapts to his alien, warrior upbringing and the ship is threatening the crew.
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Jul 16, 2014 20:23
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bbbbbuuuuttt Star Wars ships use TURBOLASERS!
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Jul 16, 2014 20:34
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Cythereal posted:I've always wondered what the Starfleet procedure for encountering an extremely hostile, but extremely primitive, race would be. Say, a big old Nebula class is doing a science thing when a ship from a nearby system pops in and starts threatening, then attacks, with spatial torpedoes and phase cannons that barely tickle the ship's shields.
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Jul 16, 2014 20:57
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They tractor them into Klingon space and set them free.
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Jul 16, 2014 21:02
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Arglebargle III posted:That example with Bajor just sounds really stupid, but I'm sure Starfleet would have reams of rules about first contact with unknown species that might get lumped under the Prime Directive umbrella. Though at that point you might as well start calling them Prime Directives which doesn't make any sense when you think about what prime means. Also the reason not to interfer in the Bajor occupation is that it was well within Cardassian space and to do so would instigate full scale war. I mean, the Federation might not have known of the Cardassian empire until the previous 20 odd years and well into the occupation where it had simply been a part of the Union and its war crimes glossed over/hidden.
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Jul 16, 2014 21:09
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Well the specific Bajoran example was after the end of the Occupation and essentially it was a matter of internal politics. Sure the Cardassians were interfering by supplying one side with weapons but if the Federation had intervened it would have made them just as bad.
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Jul 16, 2014 21:16
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Cythereal posted:I've always wondered what the Starfleet procedure for encountering an extremely hostile, but extremely primitive, race would be. Say, a big old Nebula class is doing a science thing when a ship from a nearby system pops in and starts threatening, then attacks, with spatial torpedoes and phase cannons that barely tickle the ship's shields. Probably fairly similarly to how the Indian government deals with the Sentinelese people.
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Jul 16, 2014 21:59
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Gau posted:bbbbbuuuuttt Star Wars ships use TURBOLASERS! Star wars uses plasma cannons almost exclusively. They're called lasers because stars wars ain't give a gently caress about physics.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:06
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MikeJF posted:Prime Directive in TOS: knocking an asteroid away from collision with a primitive society? Not a problem, not actually interfering. Also how the Enterprise got increasingly fragile, to the point where a stiff breeze would set everything to "feedback loops" that threatened to blow up everything.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:07
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Arglebargle III posted:Star wars uses plasma cannons Plasma made of energized tibanna gas, spin-sealed on such mining platforms as Cloud City on Bespin 
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Jul 16, 2014 22:19
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I don't think anyone has mentioned this recently enough, but Wesley sucks.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:27
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Trabisnikof posted:I don't think anyone has mentioned this recently enough, but Wesley sucks. Write as I was reading your post a preview for Stand By Me came on the tv. It was the leech scene.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:31
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sonatinas posted:I must be thinking of a different episode then. I think it was the one where the kidnapped human boy adapts to his alien, warrior upbringing and the ship is threatening the crew.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:33
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Gau posted:I agree from the perspective that the Enterprise-D was capable of carrying up to 14,000 passengers with a standard crew. On the other hand, imagine this happening on modern-day Earth. A starship appears in orbit, tells the entire world that it's going to be destroyed, and offers to save 14,000 people out of six billion. How do they decide? They can't just pick out random people and tear them away from their families and loved ones. What if they leave it up to us and let the United Nations choose how many people get chosen from each nation? What if the selection process is incredibly biased? Again, its all about inaction being the absolute worst result possible. Saving 14,000/7,000,000,000 might be a lovely result, but its less lovely than shedding a single tear and flying away after saving 0/7,000,000,000.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:54
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:Again, its all about inaction being the absolute worst result possible. Saving 14,000/7,000,000,000 might be a lovely result, but its less lovely than shedding a single tear and flying away after saving 0/7,000,000,000. I agree. I am just pointing out that it would be a hell of a moral conundrum.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:58
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Crosscontaminant posted:That's Suddenly Human, but I thought you were actually referring to Conundrum (the one where one group wipes the Enterprise crew's memories and plants information in their computer trying to get them to attack the people they're fighting a war with). I was thinking of Suddenly Human too and now that you mention those other episodes it seems like the Enterprise gets picked on a lot by vastly weaker ships. Basically the galaxy's impression of the Federation is so low that even the weakest of powers try to bully them. Arglebargle III posted:Star wars uses plasma cannons almost exclusively. They're called lasers because stars wars ain't give a gently caress about physics. If we're talking realism plasma weapons would be hilariously ineffective as the plasma would just dissipate the moment you fired it. Nessus posted:while whatever species of psion they have as counselor/face man tries to talk them down. This reminded me of something I found amusing about the old Birth of the Federation game. Each race could build a unique structure. The Betazoids' one? Counseling Academy. Basically to the Federation, Betazed's only role is to provide ships with officers that can let their captains know when they sense something really obvious. Subyng fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 23:13
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Delsaber posted:"Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields." Force lightning. Check and mate.
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Jul 16, 2014 23:24
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Gau posted:I agree from the perspective that the Enterprise-D was capable of carrying up to 14,000 passengers with a standard crew. On the other hand, imagine this happening on modern-day Earth. A starship appears in orbit, tells the entire world that it's going to be destroyed, and offers to save 14,000 people out of six billion. How do they decide? They can't just pick out random people and tear them away from their families and loved ones. What if they leave it up to us and let the United Nations choose how many people get chosen from each nation? What if the selection process is incredibly biased? If I recall the old SNES Starfleet Academy game had a mission like this where you had to decide between saving people on one of two planets in a star system where the sun was going supernova based on their appeals for your help. The mission didn't really have a right or wrong answer to it, which was pretty cool.
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Jul 16, 2014 23:26
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jscolon2.0 posted:Force lightning. Check and mate. C'mon, is there any "Empire vs Trek" scenario that doesn't involve Vader jumping out of his fighter onto the surface of the Enterprise and lightsabering his way inside?
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Jul 17, 2014 00:01
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jng2058 posted:C'mon, is there any "Empire vs Trek" scenario that doesn't involve Vader jumping out of his fighter onto the surface of the Enterprise and lightsabering his way inside? Even if he did Data would hand him his shiny plastic rear end. You can take that either way. 
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Jul 17, 2014 00:06
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Barlow posted:If I recall the old SNES Starfleet Academy game had a mission like this where you had to decide between saving people on one of two planets in a star system where the sun was going supernova based on their appeals for your help. The mission didn't really have a right or wrong answer to it, which was pretty cool. I'm pretty sure I played that game on PC. It was fun as hell; the missions were dripping with Trek flavor and you even got to hack the Kobayashi Maru to win. Also Shatner and I think Koenig briefed you on some of the missions.
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Jul 17, 2014 00:06
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Subyng posted:I was thinking of Suddenly Human too and now that you mention those other episodes it seems like the Enterprise gets picked on a lot by vastly weaker ships. Basically the galaxy's impression of the Federation is so low that even the weakest of powers try to bully them. I bet that most of the Betazoids end up being recruited into Starfleet Intelligence, and from there, some move on to Section 31. Seems like a Psi-corps would be pretty darn useful if you're a spy organization.
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Jul 17, 2014 00:08
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The Borg Queen tries to seduce the emperor but he destroys the assimilation nanites with the dark side. Then he impregnates her with the Sith/Borg antichrist that our heroes must kill before it is too late.
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Jul 17, 2014 00:29
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McDowell posted:The Borg Queen tries to seduce the emperor but he destroys the assimilation nanites with the dark side. Then he impregnates her with the Sith/Borg antichrist that our heroes must kill before it is too late. Okay, Mr. Shatner, and where does Captain Kirk fit into this?
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Jul 17, 2014 00:30
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Writer Cath posted:Okay, Mr. Shatner, and where does Captain Kirk fit into this? Duh, he and Luke share a passionate kiss just before the climax.
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Jul 17, 2014 00:32
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syscall girl posted:Even if he did Data would hand him his shiny plastic rear end. You are the droid I'm looking for.
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Jul 17, 2014 00:33
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Trabisnikof posted:Duh, he and Luke share a passionate kiss just before the climax. I hope they kiss after they climax, too. 
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Jul 17, 2014 00:37
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