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E-Tank posted:So is Ableist playing devil's advocate, or does he legit believe that cops can do no wrong and we are blessed when they kill only our dogs and not us? He's just incapable of debate and trolling yet another thread. Ignore him and Kinkshamer and your reading experience will improve twofold. Back on topic, there was a pretty interesting opinion piece in the Chicago Tribune yesterday. Nice to see that the Chicago PD finally gave up and actually fulfilled their legal duty to respond to FOIA Act requests on information that's supposed to be public record. I mean, it only took several years and multiple court orders to get the people charged with enforcing the law to obey it, that's ideal, right? Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 20:01
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Sorry, it was kind of dickish to post about posting instead of contributing content, so have some content. Although not to the extremes of Tias, I've seen cops do some things that they shouldn't, or that are crimes if I do them. I want to ask the serious posters in here couple of questions. First off, the fishing story. If there's any police goons still subjecting themselves to this topic (and I'd understand if you didn't), is the fishing story something they teach you in police academy or is it just a local cultural thing? If you're not a cop, have you ever had a cop tell you the fishing story and if so what state were you in? What seems to be the problem, officer? The problem is the speed limit on this here road is 55 and I clocked you doin' 70 back there. Yessir, I was, but everybody was going that fast, I was just keeping with the flow of traffic. You ever been fishin, boy? Yessir, I have. Now in that water, was there a lot of fish or just one? There was probably a lot of them, sir. And did you catch ALL them fish, or just one at the time? I only caught one at a time, sir. Well today I'm fishin' for speeders, and today I caught you.Now I've personally had that story told to me once and seen it told to the driver of the vehicle two other times. This isn't nearly as bad as physical or sexual abuse, but I find it more than a little insulting and condescending, not to mention the fact that nobody my tax dollars pay for needs to be equating their relationship with me to my relationship with a fish. I don't serve and protect fish, I catch them, kill them, and eat them.
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Jul 16, 2014 20:14
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All fish are criminals and it's a shame we have to catch them one at a time. So many escape justice.
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Jul 16, 2014 20:28
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SrgMagnum posted:Well I appreciate you completely ignoring the point of my post, which is that the media doesn't just portray cops as heroes and has its fair share of depictions of cops are horrible people. I don't expect any less of you though with your history in this thread. I'm not sure where I conveyed that my feelings were hurt but sure, let's focus on that instead of what I actually say. Cops don't get a free pass on this because they are in a position of authority. That means they don't get to make mistakes of judgement that lead to abuses of that authority and keep their jobs, because the consequences of those mistakes are so drastic to the people they are supposed to be serving and protecting. Protecting other cops that do abuse their power makes the rest both complicit and guilty of abusing their own positions. At least that's how the legal system is supposed to work. In practice, officers who misbehave regularly get paid time off and reinstatement once public opinion quiets down. Small wonder so many abuse power, because they don't face consequences for doing so.
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Jul 16, 2014 20:50
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Network Pesci posted:Now I've personally had that story told to me once and seen it told to the driver of the vehicle two other times. This isn't nearly as bad as physical or sexual abuse, but I find it more than a little insulting and condescending, not to mention the fact that nobody my tax dollars pay for needs to be equating their relationship with me to my relationship with a fish. I don't serve and protect fish, I catch them, kill them, and eat them.
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Jul 16, 2014 21:15
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I'm going to go ahead and say that any adult who uses "But the other kids were doin' it too!" in an attempt to get out of a ticket deserves to be insulted and that the above is not an example of police abuse so much as it is an example of what happens when you're stupid. No. In most jurisdictions, failure to keep with the flow of traffic is ALSO a ticketable offense. Meaning, we're hosed either way.
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Jul 16, 2014 21:19
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anonumos posted:No. In most jurisdictions, failure to keep with the flow of traffic is ALSO a ticketable offense. Meaning, we're hosed either way. Edit: The ones I'm seeing pretty much all echo the same "normal and reasonable movement of traffic" language which can in no way be interpreted to encourage or condone exceeding the posted speed limit. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 21:24
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But what if everybody really IS going 70 in a posted 55? Surely you've seen that in real life before? I don't know the law (personal experience is that the worst possible thing you can do when dealing with a cop is tell him that you know what the law is) but I'm fairly sure that if I stubbornly refused to go over 55 on a two-lane highway, causing ten or twenty other drivers to pile up behind me honking and flashing their lights and flipping me the bird when they can't pass, a cop could come up with something to ticket me for.
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Jul 16, 2014 21:57
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Traffic control and enforcement is one of the few legitimate usages of police power, to make everyone safer. Take your lumps and pay your ticket and maybe don't speed so much next time. Contributing: When I was arrested, it was July in Florida. The policeman took me to county, then proceeded to leave me handcuffed in the back of his black cruiser in the sun in the middle of the day with the windows up for 25 minutes, before retrieving me with no explanation of the delay. That was fun. Shrecknet fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 22:10
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Network Pesci posted:But what if everybody really IS going 70 in a posted 55? Surely you've seen that in real life before? I don't know the law (personal experience is that the worst possible thing you can do when dealing with a cop is tell him that you know what the law is) but I'm fairly sure that if I stubbornly refused to go over 55 on a two-lane highway, causing ten or twenty other drivers to pile up behind me honking and flashing their lights and flipping me the bird when they can't pass, a cop could come up with something to ticket me for. Do you really think as long as everyone speeds, cops should be helpless to enforce speed limits?
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Jul 16, 2014 22:15
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The speed limit is supposed to be set at the 85th percentile of what speed people naturally drive at on that road/stretch of road. If "everyone's speeding" then the speed limit is set incorrectly and that isn't really the police's fault.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:18
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I remember there was a video of a bunch of people who drove the exact speed limit causing people to actually drive off the road to go around them. Everyone was honking, it was pretty funny. I can't find the exact video, but this is basically the same idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoETMCosULQ
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Jul 16, 2014 22:32
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LorneReams posted:I remember there was a video of a bunch of people who drove the exact speed limit causing people to actually drive off the road to go around them. Everyone was honking, it was pretty funny. I can't find the exact video, but this is basically the same idea: I've seen that video. Backing up traffic so that the chance of accidents are increased or emergency vehicles are hindered is hilarious!
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Jul 16, 2014 22:38
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Everblight posted:Traffic control and enforcement is one of the few legitimate usages of police power, to make everyone safer. Take your lumps and pay your ticket and maybe don't speed so much next time. It's actually not.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:41
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Solkanar512 posted:I've seen that video. Backing up traffic so that the chance of accidents are increased or emergency vehicles are hindered is hilarious! Wouldn't that be the fault of the law (speed limit)
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Jul 16, 2014 23:20
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Yeah, if everyone actually drove the speed limit and followed the letter of the law the entire transport system would grind to a halt, this makes a lot of traffic enforcement seem arbitrary and unfair. Self-driving cars are going to be absolutely hated by everyone else on the road, and even the owners of them are going to get frustrated by how slow they are going as they do exactly the speed limit and gently caress up traffic. At least they'll do the speed limit in the correct lane.
Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 23:43
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Speed limits are set too low but if you're by yourself you should drive it anyway because a cop's not going to ticket you if you're going the same speed as everyone else but he can and will ticket you for breaking it alone.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:07
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Speed limits aren't too low. People overestimate their driving skills and are generally lovely aggressive drivers. If people followed the speed limits and maintained a safe distance, traffic would flow just fine. Instead people follow too closely and speed. This leads to a few slowing/speeding up motions at the front of the pack which has a shockwave effect similar to a sonic boom on the rest of traffic.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:17
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Mr. Nice! posted:Speed limits aren't too low. People overestimate their driving skills and are generally lovely aggressive drivers. If people followed the speed limits and maintained a safe distance, traffic would flow just fine. Instead people follow too closely and speed. This leads to a few slowing/speeding up motions at the front of the pack which has a shockwave effect similar to a sonic boom on the rest of traffic. Whatever pig.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:24
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Mr. Nice! posted:Speed limits aren't too low. People overestimate their driving skills and are generally lovely aggressive drivers. If people followed the speed limits and maintained a safe distance, traffic would flow just fine. Instead people follow too closely and speed. This leads to a few slowing/speeding up motions at the front of the pack which has a shockwave effect similar to a sonic boom on the rest of traffic. It's always interesting to pick a car that's dodging and weaving through traffic trying to get ahead and see where they are in relation to you a mile later.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:57
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There's a section I drive sometimes that, if you go just a little over the speed limit, you make the lights. It's like the traffic engineers want us to speed 
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Jul 17, 2014 02:02
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SrgMagnum posted:I don't know nearly enough about the NYPD to agree or disagree but the stories I hear and read are overwhelmingly bad so I can understand why someone would feel that way. Alright, this is not necessarily the specific study I was looking for, but it is a study at least: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/181312.pdf Unfortunately the poll in this study is over 15 years old, but that should at least make it relevant to SrgMagnum's experience. What makes this poll interesting is that it is a national poll of police officers on how force is used in their departments with a large n of over 900. The first thing that I'd like to point out, as D&D can probably appreciate, is that the majority of police aren't psychopathic assholes, they're just guys trying to get by. They understand that excessive force is counter productive and that the rules exist for a reason and should be respected, but a larger majority recognizes that reporting colleagues for using excessive force is not good for their career. They recognize that the code of silence is bullshit, but 61% of them acknowledge that 'serious criminal violations involving the abuse of authority' perpetrated by officers goes unreported. 84% report that police use more force than is necessary to make an arrest. So here's the thing, police representatives visiting this thread, these are police talking about themselves and other police. D&D isn't a bunch of whiny babies screaming FTP at the top of their lungs. Police recognize that there is a deep and systemic problem with the use of force. It is no accident that the abuse winds up in the media. The police present and former visiting this thread mostly seem to be sensible guys, but you need to get your house in order, because even other cops know that police are lovely at using force and self-regulating. The fact is that if the results of this study are in any way representative of reality we should see police going to jail all the time. It should be commonplace, but it's nearly unheard of. I would love to see more current information if somebody could dig it up, but I think it should be taken as given that police violence is real and a severe problem. Further, at the least a simple majority of police officers are complicit and culpable for enabling the culture of abuse. Let me request that if you want to contest this finding, please support your argument with a citation. It seems that a more reasonable discussion would center on resolutions for this obviously severe problem.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:28
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I can't believe no mention in this thread of the jersey city cop killer shrine http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2014/07/in_jersey_city_a_sidewalk_memorial_honors_a_cop_killer.html 
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Jul 17, 2014 04:04
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StabbinHobo posted:I can't believe no mention in this thread of the jersey city cop killer shrine The true testament to his fame is this news coverage, not whatever sad scrap of a memorial his family managed to create for his death, now a spectacle.
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Jul 17, 2014 04:08
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StabbinHobo posted:I can't believe no mention in this thread of the jersey city cop killer shrine This incident is quite obviously a false flag conspiracy by the pro law enforcement media. Everyone knows being a police officer isn't dangerous and no one should ever think cops are at risk of being ambushed and murdered while responding to calls. Obviously the issues here are that 1. Walgreens Pharmacies need to be easier to rob and 2. Police unions shouldn't expect the public to not openly memorialize a cop killer, such actions by the community should never give an impression of establishing an "us vs. them" mentality. This won't change until system as a whole is rebooted. If only drugs were legalized, etc.
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Jul 17, 2014 05:08
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Untagged posted:This incident is quite obviously a false flag conspiracy by the pro law enforcement media. Everyone knows being a police officer isn't dangerous and no one should ever think cops are at risk of being ambushed and murdered while responding to calls. Obviously the issues here are that 1. Walgreens Pharmacies need to be easier to rob and 2. Police unions shouldn't expect the public to not openly memorialize a cop killer, such actions by the community should never give an impression of establishing an "us vs. them" mentality. This won't change until system as a whole is rebooted. If only drugs were legalized, etc. Yes, please strawman harder.
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Jul 17, 2014 05:43
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LorneReams posted:Wouldn't that be the fault of the law (speed limit) Many states reserve the left lane for passing only, but yes part of the issue is the law.
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Jul 17, 2014 05:49
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StabbinHobo posted:I can't believe no mention in this thread of the jersey city cop killer shrine It's a tragedy that this poor young man lost his life protecting his community from armed thugs.
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Jul 17, 2014 13:24
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Untagged posted:This incident is quite obviously a false flag conspiracy by the pro law enforcement media. Everyone knows being a police officer isn't dangerous and no one should ever think cops are at risk of being ambushed and murdered while responding to calls. Obviously the issues here are that 1. Walgreens Pharmacies need to be easier to rob and 2. Police unions shouldn't expect the public to not openly memorialize a cop killer, such actions by the community should never give an impression of establishing an "us vs. them" mentality. This won't change until system as a whole is rebooted. If only drugs were legalized, etc. Being a police officer isn't dangerous. If you think that one death makes an occupation "dangerous" you are an idiot who doesn't know how numbers work. Three commercial fishermen have been killed on the job since that cop died. Do fishermen get to kick down my door, assault me, tear apart my house, and kill my dog whenever they feel like it, knowing they will never be prosecuted?
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Jul 17, 2014 14:26
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Everyone knows being a delivery driver isn't dangerous and no one should ever think drivers are at risk of being ambushed and murdered while delivering pizzas.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:30
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Cole: I'm a white, middle class man with a college degree, a good job, and no arrests. I would never help the police, under any circumstances, even to harm people I dislike. Does it bother you that you're starting to lose folks like us?
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Jul 17, 2014 14:37
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Radbot posted:Cole: I'm a white, middle class man with a college degree, a good job, and no arrests. I would never help the police, under any circumstances, even to harm people I dislike. Does it bother you that you're starting to lose folks like us? From one white middle class man with a college degree and a good job and no arrests to another, I'm pretty sure I would rather try to work out a solution with a criminal myself, if ever confronted with one, than involve the police if it was at all possible. Lucky for me crime rates are down and I'm not likely to ever have to deal with either of them beyond the occasional traffic stop. I'd honestly be curious for evidence based feedback showing that I am wrong.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:25
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meat sweats posted:Being a police officer isn't dangerous. If you think that one death makes an occupation "dangerous" you are an idiot who doesn't know how numbers work. They lay traps, catch and suffocate to death millions of fish and show not one ounce of empathy for the creatures they cruelly kill for money. If you were a fish that'd probably seem pretty unjust, assuming fish had a concept of justice. It's the job of the cops to apprehend people who don't feel like being apprehended. That involves a certain amount of violence and a certain amount of risk that is mitigated by judicious use of violence. And they're often prosecuted or disciplined. It's mentioned in a lot of the links people are posting. Radbot posted:Cole: I'm a white, middle class man with a college degree, a good job, and no arrests. I would never help the police, under any circumstances, even to harm people I dislike. Does it bother you that you're starting to lose folks like us? Hey bro, how's the job going?
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Jul 17, 2014 15:31
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wateroverfire posted:They lay traps, catch and suffocate to death millions of fish and show not one ounce of empathy for the creatures they cruelly kill for money. If you were a fish that'd probably seem pretty unjust, assuming fish had a concept of justice. Um...ok. quote:It's the job of the cops to apprehend people who don't feel like being apprehended. That involves a certain amount of violence and a certain amount of risk that is mitigated by judicious use of violence. But the statistical reality is that they do not die on the job as often as fisherman, construction workers, taxi drivers, or any number of professions. I don't know why you think you can argue away the objective facts by continuing to say "nuh-uh." quote:And they're often prosecuted or disciplined. It's mentioned in a lot of the links people are posting. It's incredibly difficult to get a cop off of the force and into prison. Paid vacations in the rare event that police jackassery gets media attention are not "discipline."
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Jul 17, 2014 15:34
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I'm still waiting for an answer. Solkanar512 posted:No, I'm acting like one of the most fundamental rules when it comes to things like firearms and munitions is being sure of your target and what is behind it. Seven year olds understand this poo poo, why don't a bunch of cops with specialized training? I don't even own guns and I know what the four fundamental rules are. Solkanar512 posted:This. If I write down the wrong serial number, I would have the FAA crawling up my rear end in a top hat. But we'd still catch it before planes were delivered. Same thing if you work in food safety or pharma. Solkanar512 posted:Have fun! Where the gently caress is the accountability? Why am I held to a higher standard than someone who carries a gun?
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Jul 17, 2014 15:35
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Solkanar512 posted:Where the gently caress is the accountability? Why am I held to a higher standard than someone who carries a gun? Because they have a gun, duh! 
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Jul 17, 2014 15:39
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Radbot posted:Cole: I'm a white, middle class man with a college degree, a good job, and no arrests. I would never help the police, under any circumstances, even to harm people I dislike. Does it bother you that you're starting to lose folks like us? Cole's gone. His entire justification for his beliefs was based on the premise that police abuse is extremely rare (rarer than we know police being killed is). That's why he demanded we provide him with personal stories because the types of abuse we're discussing are so rare it's clearly never happened to any one of us. When six or so of us responded, he ran away.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:40
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meat sweats posted:But the statistical reality is that they do not die on the job as often as fisherman, construction workers, taxi drivers, or any number of professions. I don't know why you think you can argue away the objective facts by continuing to say "nuh-uh." You're being dumb with statistics. Fisherman, construction workers, taxi drivers and whoever else face hazards specific to their professions that they mitigate in ways specific to their professions. One of the risks of policing is being violently attacked by people who don't want to be policed and use of force is one of the ways cops mitigate that risk. That people in other professions die more often is irrelevant. meat sweats posted:It's incredibly difficult to get a cop off of the force and into prison. Paid vacations in the rare event that police jackassery gets media attention are not "discipline." Most of the poo poo you guys are complaining about is not worthy of putting a cop in prison. There has to be a strong presumption that the use of force is justified.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:56
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Throwing a flashbang into a crib, shooting an unarmed woman in the neck who was pleading for her children's lives: not prison worthy offences. Driving while black or having some weed? Boy howdy I sure hope you don't drop the soap.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:01
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SedanChair posted:It's always interesting to pick a car that's dodging and weaving through traffic trying to get ahead and see where they are in relation to you a mile later. They wouldn't have to weave if lane laws were enforced. Whenever I drive in Quebec (where people use the left lane for passing), traffic is nice and smooth. Then I cross the Ontario border and some Corolla is sitting in the left lane impeding faster traffic. This leads to weaving and a lot of expended effort for nothing (and also accidents). Yet instead of lane discipline being thought of as fundamental, police focus on easier-to-target speeders. It doesn't help that issuing speeding tickets is one of the few revenue-positive actions that police undertake.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:18
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