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I've been interviewing cooks at work and have seen a couple of applicants with no work experience whatsoever and a shiny new degree from a for-profit culinary school. The resumes go right into the 'no' pile, but part of me wants to bring them in to an interview just to ask them why they thought that going tens of thousands of dollars into debt was a good idea when you could've gotten the same education in the same amount of time by getting paid as a dishwasher, hustling to get your poo poo done and learning from the cooks by doing odd jobs during your downtime. I might start bringing a couple of them in for interviews to see if any of them have a work ethic, but these schools lead you to believe that it's okay to spend 4 hours making sure the sauce for your lamb is just right and that as soon as your graduate, Gordon Ramsay is going to be beating down your door with a massive check because he heard that you got a 92% in plated desserts and he needs you to be the head pastry chef at his newest restaurant.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:35
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In keeping with the theme of the idiocy of for profit colleges. Here's 72,000 people bad with money. I almost feel sorry for them but the schadenfreude is too delicious. http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/07/16/331700270/students-react-to-the-closure-of-a-giant-for-profit-college "Crawford is paying $21,000 for her degree here, $13,000 of which is in loans. By contrast, the at Boston's public Bunker Hill Community College costs under $5,000 for in-state students."
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Jul 16, 2014 17:46
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My ex decided to go to a for-profit college to get a second undergraduate degree in business instead of going to a state school and getting her MBA. Part of the reason we broke up was me trying to tell her she was retarded.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:26
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My sister has always been bad with money though lately she has been getting better. This story is more about her mindset than losing thousands of dollars. She decided she wanted a nice car (brand new 4x4). Some idiot at her work told her she could write off a lot of the purchase price / running costs on her tax (she does use her car for work so there is a small amount when she uses it for work she can claim). She told my parents her great plan to get a loan to buy a new car and get heaps back in tax. They told her to talk to their accountant to get the facts. He told her it was garbage and she should not expect to get anything back. She then called me up because the accountant didn't understand what she was doing and could I have a look at the tax code / figures. I had a look at the relevant tax code (Australia), ran some quick numbers and worked out she would get very little back. I even worked out if she depreciated the entire thing in one year she still would only get a limited amount back. She simply didn't earn enough money to pay enough tax to even get much back (even this is a false economy, spending money to get tax back on a depreciating asset). She simply didn't want to believe so my parents knew she was going to buy the car regardless, they loaned her the money and charged her the interest they were paying on the cash for one of their rental properties (home loan rates are lower than car loan / personal loan rates, my parents are loaded as well). She has been paying them back as agreed but she simply got it stuck in her head she wanted a new car and deluded herself she'd get a big tax return because of it.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:40
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lostleaf posted:In keeping with the theme of the idiocy of for profit colleges. Here's 72,000 people bad with money. I almost feel sorry for them but the schadenfreude is too delicious. These universities are predatory. They spend vast sums of money to woo students into applying, so the blame should be placed much more heavily on the schools themselves and the societies that allow them to operate without regulations. Usury should be illegal, as is deceiving 18 year olds with false promises to secure their debt servicing abilities for the next several decades. For myself, my bad with money story. I had a full scholarship to a public art university, but instead transferred to a very expensive for-profit university, because the public uni had only traditional art classes, and I wanted to pursue digital art focusing in film and videogames. To be fair, I did my first year at the free school as I heard the foundation year is nearly the same everywhere, so I did get a lot of credits out of the way for free instead of around 36,000 at the school I transferred to. Ultimately I do work in games and have been able to pay back the debt, but nearly nothing of my skillset came from the for-profit school, and in hindsight I would have learned so much more foundational skills staying at the first university. I ended up 43,000 USD in debt for 1.5 years, quitting to work full time before even getting the bachelors, but it's a good thing because I would have been another 50-90,000 USD in debt to finish. I was absolutely taken in by the fancy sales pitch, the lofty placement numbers of graduates, the crazy technology they had on hand, and the glitzy campus. Many of these schools take advantage of the parent's lack of understanding of the career, and pass every student with good grades, regardless of merit, knowing most parents would stop cosigning or students might second-guess their career choice if they were given failing grades. poopinmymouth fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 18:51
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I've told this story elsewhere on the forums, but I work for a giant company that employs over 100,000 people worldwide. I'm friends with one of the HR people. She told me that one of our coworkers asked her to look over her husband's resume. He had just finished an MBA, and was having no success getting interviews. His MBA was from University of Phoenix. His undergraduate was from a reputable state university, and he had relevant experience in the fields he was applying for. The biggest change she made to his resume was telling him to leave off his Phoenix degree. He got interviews almost immediately, and was employed within a couple of months. For profit university degrees are worse than useless. For a few months, Arizona State University bought a billboard right outside University of Phoenix's headquarters visible from the interstate advertising their full time/evening/executive programs. On a yellow background, in big red capital letters it read "GET A REAL MBA"
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Jul 16, 2014 19:14
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Just so I'm clear, when y'all say "for-profit" you mean something like University of Phoenix, DeVry, ITT Tech, etc., right? Schools where the credits will never transfer to another school, the schools are only in it for the money? You're not talking about private universities like Wake Forest, Auburn, Ohio University, etc.?
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Jul 16, 2014 19:14
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Omne posted:Just so I'm clear, when y'all say "for-profit" you mean something like University of Phoenix, DeVry, ITT Tech, etc., right? Schools where the credits will never transfer to another school, the schools are only in it for the money? You're not talking about private universities like Wake Forest, Auburn, Ohio University, etc.? Yes, University of Phoenix, DeVry, ITT Tech, are bad, and what people are referring to when they say for profit.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:36
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Real private universities are organized as non-profits because 1) their primary mission is education and 2) there are significant tax benefits for doing so.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:52
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seacat posted:The bullshit liberal arts classes were pretty much the same, just on a prettier campus. So if you want to get a BS major in polysci or english or psychology (WHY??????) not taking English Literature 101 at CC for 10% tuition/credit hr is shooting yourself in the foot. Oh come on
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Jul 16, 2014 19:59
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SIHappiness posted:I was a high school teacher for seven years before I moved on to my current career. I taught a very promising student my third year. She was a minority student from a solid, working class family and would be the first to attend university. She applied for an amazing scholarship offered by one of the local charitable organizations: a literal full-ride (housing and books included) at any state university for her Junior and Senior year, provided she completed the first two years at a community college and kept her GPA above 3.0. Did you get any indication if that was her choice or if there was some kind of outside pressure?
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Jul 16, 2014 20:35
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Someone made a collection of car loan horror studies from the pf subreddit, this is great: http://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/2av2d6/collection_of_car_loan_horror_stories_from_rpf/
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Jul 16, 2014 23:54
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poopinmymouth posted:These universities are predatory. They spend vast sums of money to woo students into applying, so the blame should be placed much more heavily on the schools themselves and the societies that allow them to operate without regulations. Rather than own your poor choice, blame someone else? Where does personal responsibility lie.
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Jul 17, 2014 00:45
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Bloody Queef posted:Rather than own your poor choice, blame someone else? Where does personal responsibility lie. OHHHHH GOD, please let's not do this.
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Jul 17, 2014 00:58
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v okay, cool. derail avoided!
moana fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 01:00
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E: You know what? I'm just going to sit this one out. Apologies for bringing up the topic, it was out of line. Bloody Queef fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 01:08
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Omne posted:You're not talking about private universities like Wake Forest, Auburn, Ohio University, etc.? Two of those are public schools 
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Jul 17, 2014 01:23
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Nobody tells someone that going to Harvard is a bad idea just because it's private. ITT Tech, however... Also, I've had a ton of financial conversations focusing on how dumb I am in the past week while I decided between 3 job offers. 1. Current job. 60k, 150 a month for health care, pension plan, union. Caseload of 25-30 (average in field is 20). 2. Job in county I live in. 69k, free health care, pension plan, union. Caseload of 20-25. Farther away. 3. Job in far away county. 73k, free health care, pension plan, union. Caseload of 15. Super far away. I stayed in my current job  Turns out that appreciation, good coworkers, and a great supervisor have a cash value of about 10k.Goodbye, new car. Goodbye, eating out. Hello, bike commute.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:05
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Private =/= for-profit. And yeah, a good work environment is worth ten grands a year. Good lord is it ever.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:09
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Trilineatus posted:
Bike commuting rules.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:20
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FrozenVent posted:And yeah, a good work environment is worth ten grands a year. Good lord is it ever. Was having a conversation with a colleague about that last night. We're teachers in Japan, and with their educational system you get moved around schools at the Board of Education's whim. Typically for us (foreign teachers) we stay at set schools, although at our meeting last month our supervisor surprised us by switching his schedule (quite cozy) with mine (about as difficult as you can get in my city), to accommodate the new guy coming to replace me. We're on year to year contracts, and the decision to re-contract is made at least 2 months before we find out about any transfers. I asked him if he would have stayed on for another year knowing he was going to get my schools, and he said yeah (it's still a pretty cushy gig), but definitely wouldn't have been as sure about it. I can't imagine how it is for the Japanese teachers. One month you're teaching at a cozy academic hugbox of a school a ten minute bicycle ride from your house, the next you're commuting an hour each way to run herd over a gang of hellions at a technical school. And my prefecture is about as same-y (small) as you can get, places like Nagasaki and Okinawa can stick you out on remote islands. Tokyo is possibly the worst, odds are very slim, but if you're unlucky enough to get posted to the Ogasawara Islands, you're a 25 hour ferry ride away from civilisation (no airports). I visited another island in the Izu chain with a population of 170, one of the teachers there was also from Tokyo, and for visits home she had to take a helicopter ride to another island and fly back from there. Basically, I have a ton of respect for people who can take on such total ambiguity about their work environment/living situation.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:29
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olylifter posted:Bike commuting rules. So what you're telling me is to pull a Tuyop and buy the first oversized road bike I can get my hands on and then ride it directly into the San Francisco Bay Wait who are we kidding I'm an out of shape piece of poo poo, this six mile ride will likely kill me far before the freezing water does
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Jul 17, 2014 02:35
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Trilineatus posted:I stayed in my current job I don't know what kind of raise it would take to get me away from my job which I enjoy and my coworkers whom I like, but it's more than 10K. Good for you for staying!
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Jul 17, 2014 02:36
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Trilineatus posted:So what you're telling me is to pull a Tuyop and buy the first oversized road bike I can get my hands on and then ride it directly into the San Francisco Bay Nah, get a full on pursuit bike with a really aggressive posture and just kill it both ways every day. Make sure to remove the foot retention and front brake though. 
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Jul 17, 2014 02:55
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Trilineatus posted:this six mile ride will likely kill me The first two weeks will suck then you'll be blasting that poo poo out like nobodies business. Learning to shift for your exertion level and making sure fit is good is the hardest part. Just don't be bad with money by buying a $1200 carbon bike on credit because "lightness = speed right guys???"
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Jul 17, 2014 03:20
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MC Hawking posted:The first two weeks will suck then you'll be blasting that poo poo out like nobodies business. Learning to shift for your exertion level and making sure fit is good is the hardest part. Just don't be bad with money by buying a $1200 carbon bike on credit because "lightness = speed right guys???" Buying a really cheap bike is also bad-with-money; if you actually end up riding a lot. You'll spend as much on upgrades and repairs as you would have buying a moderately-priced bike. Around 300 bucks is probably the floor below which things start going to hell. (give or take 100, as I've not bought a bike in the US lately)
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Jul 17, 2014 03:48
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NancyPants posted:Those of us who know poo poo know that a year or two at CC and transferring to a university is the better way to go, but around here EVERYONE makes CC out to be "13th grade" and for dumb people, etc. I'm telling you, the pressure put on "good students" and the "smart kids" to go to a "good school" is absolutely unreal. For-profit universities should be loving illegal. Cornell doesn't accept lovely community college credit. The local cc I went to was also fairly good, as this things go. I tried that (well, similar) Intro to American history, not for major - denied. Not enough (quality) reading on the syllabus. European history - only accepted because my advisor called the dean and asked them to accept it so I would meet a random requirement for graduation. She made it quite clear it was a favor. Intro to American government? In major, declined because the syllabus wasn't intensive enough. Spanish? That was no problem, but that was from Georgetown university and I had to take a test to pass out. I was one class from a double major in history in three years, taking cc and language classes in the summers to try and fit requirements. The advice of "go to a community college first to save money" only works if they take your credits. They don't always. Zauper fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 04:02
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Zauper posted:Cornell doesn't accept lovely community college credit. The local cc I went to was also fairly good, as this things go. This is why I went to a public state school (equal to Cornell in reputation). They took my 3 years of dubious community college credits and then sat back and waited to see if my brain would catch fire from grinding gears while shifting from "this is easy" to "WHAT THE loving gently caress." Two associates degrees from a good community college: Free as a bird. Bachelors degree: 10k Masters degree: 40k Higher learning loving blows, and I did this the "cheap" way. Though it is nice to refute that social science degrees are "bad with money" as I'm happily employed in my field with a BA in Sociology and an MSW. Bad with money: My classmates from my master's program who took out the max loans (I had a 38k grant) and then dropped out the semester before graduation 
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Jul 17, 2014 04:11
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FrozenVent posted:And yeah, a good work environment is worth ten grands a year. Good lord is it ever. I think you're absolutely right. I've been in the workforce for about 10 years now on my fourth job. I've been at my latest gig since 2009 and it would take a crowbar to get me out. It took a string of less than ideal jobs for me to realize just how good I have it now. I have a pretty specific and sought after skill-set, such that I get phone calls from recruiters on a weekly basis. "Hey, want to make double your salary working at some saw mill in the wilderness of the Upper Peninsula?" No thanks.
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Jul 17, 2014 04:32
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Trilineatus posted:This is why I went to a public state school (equal to Cornell in reputation). They took my 3 years of dubious community college credits and then sat back and waited to see if my brain would catch fire from grinding gears while shifting from "this is easy" to "WHAT THE loving gently caress." Fair point. US news and world report still doesn't have any public colleges listed above Cornell (though some of the Cornell colleges are public). UC Berkeley? My point was more simple: not all colleges are required to accept your lovely credits. Those that are often don't have to accept more than two years worth, and don't have to accept any towards a major, only towards the general requirements. Read your state requirements, see what the policies are at the school you want to attend. Don't just go to a cc because "it's cheaper". Also worth pointing out that in some states, it's any regional accredited school that qualifies - including stuff like university of Phoenix. Zauper fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 05:03
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Trilineatus posted:Nobody tells someone that going to Harvard is a bad idea just because it's private. ITT Tech, however... You probably could have at least parlayed the new offers into a raise at your current job. (Depends on the culture, if they freak out about disloyalty you'd have to be careful and say stuff along the lines of "I feel undervalued here" instead of being frank.) I've at least had good luck with that, I was in a similar situation with both job offers being in different, more expensive regions of the country. I was able to negotiate back and forth with all of them and ended up much better off at a new place, despite the more expensive cost of living. It kind of helped that I wanted to move anyway, and living in NYC is awesome despite the expense.
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Jul 17, 2014 05:32
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I can't negotiate while on probation (current, but new) but have been promised a two step promotion at the end of probation after I agreed to stay.
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Jul 17, 2014 06:11
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I am about to use the rest of my GI bill. If I get any job at all while I'm in school, I should graduate with money in the bank.
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Jul 17, 2014 09:15
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Bloody Queef posted:Rather than own your poor choice, blame someone else? Where does personal responsibility lie. If the information was symmetrical, you might have a point, but one side is a barely legal teenager with no knowledge of the industry or it's hiring practices who the US allows to go into non-dischargable debt after they grow up hearing "COLLEGE COLLEGE COLLEGE!" as the only route to a good job, and the other side is a multi-million dollar institution with a marketing department, years of experience figuring out just the right secret-sauce to leave those barely-adults bedazzled at the idea of making games/films/fashion and has no legal responsibility to offer a legitimate education, AND a team that will guide you as easily as possible into being approved for literally 100,000+ dollars of debt for degrees that are often worthless without ever mentioning a single caveat or warning. Obviously I can see now that it was a poor choice, because I'm 32, and lived through it, and have seen thousands of other students fall prey to the debt and come out without good skills. But when I was 18, I had none of those tools, and I cannot see any way for me to have had them, as nearly all the info I have now is from experience and being inside the industry, something not possible for someone just starting out.
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Jul 17, 2014 10:44
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Actually most of the for profit colleges target adults. Especially veterans - for profits get the majority of GI bill funds. Average age of students for university of phoenix is mid-30s, for instance. So yeah mostly morons that no amount of information could help.
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Jul 17, 2014 11:04
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Zo posted:Actually most of the for profit colleges target adults. Especially veterans - for profits get the majority of GI bill funds. Average age of students for university of phoenix is mid-30s, for instance. Myself I'm speaking more of the technical art schools with degrees like film, videogames and fashion/architecture. The art institutes of america, and more and more the schools that used to offer good educations but are cashing them out for money, RISD, SCAD, Ringling, etc. These definitely skew younger. Even if the person is an adult who should know better, I don't think allowing businesses to take advantage of people is a good idea anyway. What does society gain out of this?
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Jul 17, 2014 11:10
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Who cares? Stupid people will always get in heavy debt or else we wouldn't have this thread. There's not much difference in a poor buying an expensive new car or whatever. And in the end it's pretty funny.
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Jul 17, 2014 11:15
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poopinmymouth posted:Even if the person is an adult who should know better, I don't think allowing businesses to take advantage of people is a good idea anyway. What does society gain out of this? People with economic education can feel smug for not falling for the trap.
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Jul 17, 2014 11:16
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poopinmymouth posted:Even if the person is an adult who should know better, I don't think allowing businesses to take advantage of people is a good idea anyway. What does society gain out of this? If we outlaw every business that take advantage of people that don't know better, 90% of businesses would be outlawed overnight. Cigarettes, alcohol, apple computers, skin care for women, healthcare, etc...
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Jul 17, 2014 11:24
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lostleaf posted:If we outlaw every business that take advantage of people that don't know better, 90% of businesses would be outlawed overnight. Cigarettes, alcohol, apple computers, skin care for women, healthcare, etc... Except those other debts are dischargable by bankruptcy....
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Jul 17, 2014 11:38
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