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Artillery is the one thing I don't think any changes to boost usefulness will actually improve. Artillery in ALB was great because it was rather ineffective at actually killing things. It was fantastic when you used it right, which was to kill AA left out to dry or as a tool for harassment of morale/sustained damage. I never played a game without a card of mortars or the good 155s in ALB because it was really good at what it should be doing, and that's making people move out of comfortable positions. Yes mens in houses was a big problem but the only solution that was needed at the time was toning down the 70% reduction in HE damage from buildings to like <40 or something. Artillery should never be really powerful in it's own right because any and all strong artillery leads to really loving boring gameplay. And 8-12 Malkas or Pions, or 4 smerches in a 10v10 sure as poo poo killed things if you knew how to use them. It shouldn't just be point and loving click, you should have to at least reasonably understand the why and how, like you do everything else in the game. Mazz fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 06:06
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I don't see decent rocket and cluster artillery expanding beyond US and USSR as a problem, actually. It's just that we better not be handing out Uragans and Burratinos left and right, and I don't like the idea of more napalm artillery in the game. Nerf ATACMS and everybody else getting a MARS will not be a big problem.
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Jul 11, 2014 06:12
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Please don't nerf ATACMS, I feel like the US really needs that as a unit
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Jul 11, 2014 06:57
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OctaMurk posted:No, he's actually right. Even people who are not normally bad posters start to have really bad opinions when they look at changes they've never played. Then people get to the real patch with lovely opinions instead of an open mind. The community is extraordinarily toxic and hiveminded and it really would ruin the patch and DLC if the whole changelog were posted. Then they shouldn't have given those reactionary nationalistic idiots marshal positions. And hired an actual community manager. And learned how to interact with their community in a way that isn't feast-or-famine of information. Eugen created their toxic community - using it as an excuse to base dumb decisions on now is idiotic.
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Jul 11, 2014 13:44
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Top Hats Monthly posted:Please don't nerf ATACMS, I feel like the US really needs that as a unit It needs to be easier to locate and hit; a unit that can stealthily kill anything on the battlefield is hard to counter. It is very very hard to deal with right now. When people micro it to fire a single shot (still enough to kill anything) it requires laserlike focus to even detect and locate the launch. And if people move it afterwards there's really no way to land counterbattery on it. Right now people are quite lazy about moving ATACMS because it's so hard to locate and thus you will occasionally kill them, but if they are moved after firing their firing cycle is so short that it is physically impossible to counterbattery them. At least if you catch a smerch on its first few shots you can have rounds out before it's done firing. With ATACMS this is impossible, it could be moving down a road before your counterbattery even goes out. Oh and its accuracy is ridiculous. You can place a 20 AP top shot anywhere on the battlefield within a radius smaller than its splash damage. An ATACMS can kill anything on the battlefield from anywhere, stealthily, and microed correctly it's immune to counterattack. Even a suicide bomber wouldn't be able to respond fast enough to hit an ATACMS that's microed correctly. That in my mind is too powerful. It needs some kind of nerf, whether to fire more shots at a lower AP or have its accuracy nerfed or something. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 14:00
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Massively, massively bump up the noise value of rocket artillery. You can fluff it as being able to track the smoke trail of the rocket, but basically give your opponent vision of your rocket arty when it fires regardless of distance or intervening terrain. And obviously exploits like only firing one guaranteed to kill shot instead of two and stuff like that need to be fixed, but that's obvious - that should be standard procedure.
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Jul 11, 2014 14:23
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Artillery should be like wizards: AoE damage and debuffs, but in general it shouldn't be able to outright kill things on its own. I am against anything that makes artillery more powerful.
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Jul 12, 2014 01:21
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DatonKallandor posted:Massively, massively bump up the noise value of rocket artillery. You can fluff it as being able to track the smoke trail of the rocket, but basically give your opponent vision of your rocket arty when it fires regardless of distance or intervening terrain. how about just give all rocket artillery faint smoke trails that linger for 30 seconds or so before dissipating?
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Jul 12, 2014 02:01
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Mortabis posted:Artillery should be like wizards: AoE damage and debuffs, but in general it shouldn't be able to outright kill things on its own. Yeah I'm also angry they don't have ice, acid and lightning rockets. Fire rockets is ridiculously narrow.
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Jul 12, 2014 04:18
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Arglebargle III posted:Yeah I'm also angry they don't have ice, acid and lightning rockets. Fire rockets is ridiculously narrow. BRB, learning to mod games.
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Jul 12, 2014 04:20
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Arglebargle III posted:Yeah I'm also angry they don't have ice, acid and lightning rockets. Fire rockets is ridiculously narrow. Hey man, I guess wizards are going full circle, from being a translation of artillery from wargames of the time to fantasy to the other way around.
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Jul 12, 2014 04:27
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Justin Tyme posted:how about just give all rocket artillery faint smoke trails that linger for 30 seconds or so before dissipating? Well, in reality there are tools like RADAR used to pinpoint the source of artillery fire to allow for quick counterbattery fire. It sounds like there needs to be an analog and perhaps a short delay while the artillery vehicles stow everything before they start moving. As for artillery's effectiveness: it's never really been fantastic at clearing out towns/cities/forests/etc. without somebody doing precise finding/spotting/rooting out targets. History has made it pretty clear that you can systematically flatten an entire town with heavy artillery from a distance and still find plenty of resistance when you finally move in. That's without even getting into how difficult it actually is to destroy armored vehicles with unguided HE/Fragmentation weapons of any sort. Personally I think it should be fantastic at murdering infantry in the open/on the move, alright at killing stationary light armored vehicles with spotting, and mediocre at killing stationary infantry in cover (causing morale effects instead). I'd like to see infantry being the tool for taking towns with tanks/artillery there to tip the balance in the supporting role. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Jul 12, 2014 |
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Jul 12, 2014 04:47
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Warbadger posted:Well, in reality there are tools like RADAR used to pinpoint the source of artillery fire to allow for quick counterbattery fire. It sounds like there needs to be an analog and perhaps a short delay while the artillery vehicles stow everything before they start moving. That would work much better; artillery should destroy light vehicles but heavy transports (Bradleys, Marders, BMPs, etc) and armor should get track kills on top of morale damage. "Detracked" is already a pretty assy crit and it just randomly happens, if it happened under barrage it would be cool and a good way to keep vehicles suppressed while you bring up poo poo to kill them. Artillery needs to be less about directly killing things (outside of 203mm which already is slow as gently caress to fire, which is balanced) and more about AOE suppression.
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Jul 12, 2014 19:23
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Justin Tyme posted:Artillery needs to be less about directly killing things (outside of 203mm which already is slow as gently caress to fire, which is balanced) and more about AOE suppression. That was generally how it worked in ALB, and the game was much better for it. There was of course a vocal minority of pubbie shitlords who complained that you could no longer win the game with nothing but artillery.
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Jul 12, 2014 22:27
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Dezztroy posted:That was generally how it worked in ALB, and the game was much better for it. There was of course a vocal minority of pubbie shitlords who complained that you could no longer win the game with nothing but artillery. I dunno about that, the 203mms were still able to kill whatever you had corrected sight of to the point where they were a staple (as much as the MSTA is for USSR or Caeser is to Eurocorp)
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Jul 13, 2014 00:01
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Not even the 203's. Having 4 Danas shooting at a light target would kill it for certain and were overall more effective than 203's.
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Jul 13, 2014 00:07
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ALB's artillery had problems, yeah, but it was much better than RD. I never said it was perfect 
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Jul 13, 2014 01:47
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The medium tanks: Obviously I've never played with these changes, but the T-72 and T-64A don't look very competitive with other tanks in the same price range. Type 74 mod E and ZTZ-88 look pretty nice though. According to Xerxes the autoloader makes a huge difference in close quarters though.
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Jul 13, 2014 15:02
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OctaMurk posted:The medium tanks: Jesus that Japenese tank doesn't gently caress around, even if it has tissue armor.
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Jul 13, 2014 20:55
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Justin Tyme posted:Jesus that Japenese tank doesn't gently caress around, even if it has tissue armor. "Nana yon shiki" is "T74" btw. And yea that is a loving serious stabilizer.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:00
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Justin Tyme posted:Jesus that Japenese tank doesn't gently caress around, even if it has tissue armor. They all still really suck because they all have tissue paper armor and fairly weak AP. Now you get to pay more for them to be more accurate.. even though lower end ATGMs pretty much do better against the targets where their significantly improved accuracy matters.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:00
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A few of my friends and I all got this; we've gotten at least competent enough to know roughly what we're doing, but we're still usually getting completely murdered by even just the medium AI.  Open maps are the worst for us, are there any dumb easy things we could do that would massively improve how we play? and are there any youtube channels with really good players I can copy from? edit: oh also how do we get our recon to not always immediately die? And what's the deal with forests; where do units have to be in them to be able to see properly/shoot out of? also is there a good way to remember what does what? can I rename units to things I might actually remember? Like I see strategies with AA saying I should turn off the weapons against planes they'd be useless against but there's no way in hell I'm remembering which of the 50 su or whatever planes are radar jamming and which have flares. Koramei fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 19:39
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I think even Medium AIs get a decent income boost, at least it seems so in Conquest. And they spam like crazy. Bring tons of cluster bombers if you're facing the AI.
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Jul 14, 2014 19:51
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Well we're fighting the AI so we'll be better when we fight people, I don't wanna rely on cheese that'll be completely ineffective against an actual person.
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Jul 14, 2014 19:53
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Koramei posted:A few of my friends and I all got this; we've gotten at least competent enough to know roughly what we're doing, but we're still usually getting completely murdered by even just the medium AI. The AI is weird to play against and doesn't really make you much better against people. Don't worry about being bad at first, get on the Mumble and ask for help. Some of us don't mind giving tips as long as you're good at taking advice. Learning to hide your recon in good places takes some getting used to. Units have to be on the edge of forests to see and shoot; this can be a tradeoff as they're then exposed to enemy fire. Your cursor turns blue when you mouse over cover. That's not immediately obvious; a lot of things aren't. Unit icons have the info you're looking for (at least by default, the NATO symbols can be confusing if you're not used to them). AA units with an R are radar and are generally better; planes with that radar-tower symbol have missiles that specifically target them. When you see one of those come out, turn off your radar AA and they can't get shot at. Flares are a cosmetic detail for planes with ECM, they don't directly do anything per se but they mean that a plane has at least some ECM stat, which makes them harder to hit. A big part of the learning curve in general is learning all the units and getting some experience using them, especially because those nice big statblocks you get in the armory don't always mean what they say they mean.
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Jul 14, 2014 20:06
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The game is on sale now, so I guess this is a good time to ask: What's the game like? I played Airland Battle and EE, but took a break from Wargame when Red Dragon came out. The addition of boats didn't really appeal to me back then, but I'd be willing to give the game a try if people say that that aspect isn't too dominant to the overall game experience, or if the boat warfare actually turned out ok.
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Jul 14, 2014 22:09
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gunblade posted:The game is on sale now, so I guess this is a good time to ask: What's the game like? Boat warfare did not turn out okay, but it's not dominant to the overall game experience. Many of the maps are land-only and even when they're not you can ignore the sea 'lane' because pubbies are bad at teamwork.
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Jul 14, 2014 22:12
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gunblade posted:The game is on sale now, so I guess this is a good time to ask: What's the game like? It's a lot like ALB, but artillery is a lot slower and a lot more powerful, maps are a lot bigger but sight range hasn't changed so you need more recon. Wheeled transports have even higher value because maps are larger, and you really need at least one unit of infantry in helicopters. The deck builder has been rejiggered with the main results being less infantry and fewer planes for everyone. Towns are no longer the doomforts they were in ALB, both because of artillery and because most decks no longer have enough infantry for a 40 minute meatgrinder. I think Red Dragon in the middle of its life is about as good as ALB was in the middle of its life. It's different but the patches have all been in positive directions and there's a tank buff on the horizon which should be another positive step. My main gripe is the change to how decks are balanced, since weaker national decks no longer get additional activation points, but it wouldn't really be useful either in the new system.
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Jul 15, 2014 02:12
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Arglebargle III posted:It's a lot like ALB, but artillery is a lot slower and a lot more powerful, maps are a lot bigger but sight range hasn't changed so you need more recon. Wheeled transports have even higher value because maps are larger, and you really need at least one unit of infantry in helicopters. The deck builder has been rejiggered with the main results being less infantry and fewer planes for everyone. Towns are no longer the doomforts they were in ALB, both because of artillery and because most decks no longer have enough infantry for a 40 minute meatgrinder. Yeah, in theory I kinda like that pure national decks get the units/card boost now but in practice none of them have units good enough to justify getting a few more vs. the extra versatility of getting access to other units through coalitions (US and USSR excepted, of course). Outside of spam gimmicks it just doesn't feel worthwhile to take a pure national--which is exactly what Eugen intended with the coalition system. Even with coalitions and 'normal' unit/card availability I rarely run out of anything anyway. Maybe in a long game I'll exhaust myself of my 'best' infantry card.
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Jul 15, 2014 03:39
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Thanks for the replies, I'll give it a try.
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Jul 15, 2014 11:10
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Oh and the other reason that towns aren't the doomforts that they used to be is (again) that maps are larger. ATGMs in towns are no longer as dominant because you often have 3 kilometers (or a lot more) clearance to drive around.
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Jul 15, 2014 11:19
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Official Wargoon: Propane and Propane Accessories soundtrack.
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Jul 16, 2014 13:16
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I started playing again recently & this is a replay of a tough match we had against a pubbie team. Normally if somebody fails to take a sector after losing all of their attacking forces, most people tend to refocus somewhere else or build up a new force; but not these guys. They were completely determined to take the middle sector of the map and they just kept pouring reinforcements into it until the game ended. Little of note happens outside of that little box for forty minutes. It ended up being really close and we thought it would be a draw because the scores were so tight, but apparently it's possible to win from just having a few more points now, which must have changed at some point IIRC. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxL-q9Tcsh-adURHUG03NGVaVDg/edit?usp=sharing
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Jul 17, 2014 06:45
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Looks like the patch is dropping real soon. And the series has sold 1 million units to date.quote:This is the anxious time when datas are freezed, test versions built to find a proper candidate one to test, when the Three Kings arrive with presents for the birth, ...
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Jul 17, 2014 13:18
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I think we can thank Shan Revan for the M60 fix - not going to call it a buff since it is such a piece of crap. Too bad they didn't also buff the PKM.
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Jul 17, 2014 13:38
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6 HE iglas are a lot better than 4HE. Akula maybe slightly better in A2A combat? Also does "interceptors" mean CIWS? If so, a 2 second aiming time is going to make ASHMs a lot harder to shoot down, particularly lone ships and ships at the outside of a blob. And the angle of fire change means they won't be able to shoot down missiles passing over/near the ship? That change could really shake up naval play.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:23
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JeffersonClay posted:6 HE iglas are a lot better than 4HE. Akula maybe slightly better in A2A combat? I think it refers to the MIG 31/Tomcat. Increasing the aim time and decreasing the fire angle removes the ability to do the ol' orbits of doom where you just have them loiter in a circle lobbing missiles at things from out of range.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:30
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Hooray for more plane micro, I guess.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:32
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JeffersonClay posted:6 HE iglas are a lot better than 4HE. Akula maybe slightly better in A2A combat? You misread the Igla change. The Igla-N has the 6 HE warhead but only shoots out to 2450. This new Igla shoots out to 2625, but no indication that its going to shoot more then 4 HE. Still gives a bit more punch, because you'll meet Celtic range but have 2 more HP then they can kill in a single shot. Buy the Hinds anyway.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:36
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I get the impression that those changes are to make the Iglas useful as backup weapons for keeping enemy helos at bay, not for using the things as AA helos.
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Jul 17, 2014 21:16
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