Rutibex posted:

It's the structure of capitalism. When you pay people less than the value that they produce debt levels need to continue to increase or no one would be able to afford anything.

Think about it. The economy produces X amount of products. The producers of said products are paid X-profit. People will never have enough money to buy everything they produce unless they go into debt.

Rime posted:

^ This. I have many friends that make nearly double my wage, if not more, yet subsist paycheque to paycheque. I tell them I put half my monthly take-home straight in my savings account and they struggle to understand how that is even possible. "It's called not being an irresponsible idiot with your money.

Rutibex posted:

It's the structure of capitalism. When you pay people less than the value that they produce debt levels need to continue to increase or no one would be able to afford anything.

Think about it. The economy produces X amount of products. The producers of said products are paid X-profit. People will never have enough money to buy everything they produce unless they go into debt.

Lexicon posted:

What the hell do these sort of folks buy? Other than a weakness for Apple electronics and good food/beer, I genuinely don't find a great deal of things in the world that I'm keen to deploy dollars to acquire.

quote:

$5,000 for a house cleaner
$4,000 family vacation each year
$3,000 for “gifts / holidays / family celebrations”
$4,000 for the kids to go to “camp”
$8,000 for kids’ college fund
maximizing 401k contributions

computer parts posted:

Read this and get angry.

Lexicon posted:

What the hell do these sort of folks buy? Other than a weakness for Apple electronics and good food/beer, I genuinely don't find a great deal of things in the world that I'm so keen to deploy dollars to acquire that I'd live close to the margin, never mind go into debt.

Cultural Imperial posted:

How do these credit food people manage their debt overall? Are they satisfied to just let it grow?

That sounds so ridiculous.

Lexicon posted:

Baronjutter posted:

Can't wait to trust a strata council 20 years from now to keep the system and security up to date. Who are we kidding, poo poo like this is installed to quick sell a condo and then be abandoned by the strata a year later for probably quite valid cost and security issues.

Cultural Imperial posted:

How do these credit food people manage their debt overall? Are they satisfied to just let it grow?

That sounds so ridiculous.

quote:

“I had lunch with a fellow accountant the other day and I asked her if she’s seeing this as well in her clients. I was floored with her answer: “Me too! I’m drowning in debt too! I bought my house thirteen years ago for $180,000 and now the mortgage is well over $300,000!” Her house is worth about $400k, so any correction in the market would wipe them out (she’s in her late forties). Hate to say it, but I still have a feeling that the Canadian economy is doomed. Everyone has jumped onto the debt train and there’s no going back now.”

Lead out in cuffs posted:

I'm visiting in-laws in Sweden right now, and this trip more than any other I feel like bubble economics are really out in the open. In my wife's home town, which has grown a whole 2% in the last 20 years, apartment blocks are sprouting like mushrooms. Property prices have increased sixfold over the past 10-15 years. People are driving huge American cars. It just feels like the same kind of conspicuous consumption has taken hold here as in Vancouver.

And so I Googled personal debt Sweden, and took a look at Swedish interest rates, and yep, it's pretty much the same. If interest rates in Sweden ever go up, they are gonna have a bad time.

Rick Rickshaw posted:

I thought those European countries were the ones that were doing things right. The Swedens, Norways, Denmarks...

Is nowhere sane?

Rick Rickshaw posted:

I thought those European countries were the ones that were doing things right. The Swedens, Norways, Denmarks...

Is nowhere sane?

beepo posted:

I would like to know how many people actually have a monthly budget that they monitor vs just spend whatever they can get away with.

Cultural Imperial posted:

Anyone know any Dutch? They should be in full meltdown mode.

quote:

One particular concern for many people is negative home equity. Data from Statistics Netherlands (CBS) show that 1.4 million of the 3.6 million homeowners are contending with a Loan-to-Value (LTV) ratio greater than one. Adjusted for mortgage-linked savings and investments, the number of households with an underwater mortgage drops to 1 million.

DNB analysis shows that two-thirds of these mortgages will still be underwater in ten years’ time if house prices remain constant and no extra repayments are made on top of scheduled repayments. However, if house prices rise by 2% annually, only one-quarter of the mortgages will suffer this fate. So an increase in house prices is key to resolving the negative home equity problem.

The negative home equity problem is particularly prevalent among younger mortgagors. The under-50s had the bad luck of stepping onto the property ladder just before prices slumped, but they have the advantage of more favourable income prospects than older age groups. In addition, fewer have interest-only mortgages. DNB research shows that only 15% of homeowners under age 50 have an interest-only mortgage, as opposed to no less than 58% of their older counterparts.

Rick Rickshaw posted:

I thought those European countries were the ones that were doing things right. The Swedens, Norways, Denmarks...

Is nowhere sane?

Blade_of_tyshalle posted:

I budget! I don't have a choice! Maybe everyone should have $300 biweekly paychecks like I do, then they might be more inclined to spend sensibly

PT6A posted:

Jesus gently caress, is that before or after tax? Maybe I've been oblivious to how hosed the rest of Canada is, after all...

computer parts posted:

Read this and get angry.

Saltin posted:

They did one of those in Toronto Life not too long ago too. It was a loving debacle.

http://www.torontolife.com/informer/features/2012/02/15/almost-rich/

quote:

The Lewis-Koonings
Household income: $200,000
Suzanne Lewis, a 41-year-old real estate agent at Keller Williams, and Thomas Koonings, the 45-year-old owner of the design-build company 4th Wall, bought their semi in Riverdale in 2007 for $419,000. Since then, they’ve had two kids: three-year-old Evie and 18-month-old Vaughan. At the end of the month, after all the bills are paid, they usually find they have nothing left. “We have a weakness for designer furniture,” says Suzanne. “In 2010, we spent $5,000 on a table and Eames chairs for our dining room.”

Mortgage payment for a three-bedroom house: $2,500.
Utilities: $500.
Gas for their Jeep Commander and Ford F-150 truck: $440. (“The Jeep was a mistake. We shouldn’t have bought it; we could have used the extra money for travel.”)
Street parking and two parking permits: $200.
Home and car insurance: $300.
Cleaning lady: $160.
Groceries: $1,000. (“We like Whole Foods and try to eat organic as much as we can. We love the new Leslieville store Hooked for fish. For everything else, Loblaws.”)
Baby supplies and toiletries at drugstores: $75.
Wine: $400–$500. (“We try to get the better $11 bottles, but they go fast.”)
Eating out: $400.
Home phone, cable, Internet and two cellphones: $280.
Dry cleaning: $50.
Haircuts, nails and waxing: $170.
Gifts: $200. (“You have kids, you spend money on toys for other kids. That’s how it goes.”)
Daycare for both kids: $2,500.

PT6A posted:

Jesus gently caress, is that before or after tax?

FrozenVent posted:

Now I'm angry. Although I do appreciate the writer's skill in presenting these people as anything but loathsome.

on the left posted:

Those living expenses aren't out of the ordinary. 5k of their income right off the bat are for mortgage and daycare, and the rest is fairly reasonable too. I'm assuming their takehome is something like 9-10k. Canada should try to make those major expenses more manageable, but you shouldn't begrudge people who are making enough to offset their costs.

Saltin posted:

They did one of those in Toronto Life not too long ago too. It was a loving debacle.

http://www.torontolife.com/informer/features/2012/02/15/almost-rich/

quote:

Craig Haynes
Household income: $165,000

Haynes, a 37-year-old national sales manager at TD Bank, has lived since 2009 in a rented one-bedroom on the 22nd floor of a condo tower at Yonge and Eglinton. He tries to stay debt-free, but occasionally he splurges on travel or a big-ticket toy, like the $7,500 Royal Enfield motorcycle he bought last year. “People think I make a lot of money,” he says, “but I lose so much of it in tax.”

HOW HE SPENDS IT

Monthly expenses | Rent: $1,750. Mortgage and property taxes on an Ottawa home he co-owns with his ex: $1,180. Groceries and eating out: $1,400. (“I often order pasta at Grazie or, if I’m in a celebratory mood, North 44°. I buy better cheese and other exotic ingredients at Pusateri’s, and because I cook at home a lot I pack leftovers for lunch.”) Wine: $800. (“I’ll spend anywhere from $15 on a Rhône to $100 on an Amarone, and I open a bottle almost every night. I’m one course away from sommelier certification, and they practically know my name at the Summerhill LCBO. “) Rogers Internet: $40. Clothes at Harry Rosen and shoes from online collectible sneaker stores: $1,000. (“My big buy last year was a couple of Zegna suits for $1,500 each.”) Live music: $200. (“I go to all kinds of concerts. Last year, I saw The Weeknd at Lee’s Palace as well as Gordon Lightfoot at Massey Hall.”)

Annual expenses | Lease, maintenance and insurance for a 2010 Honda Civic: $7,000. (“I’m at an age now that I don’t care as much about what kind of car I drive.”) Travel: $10,000. (“I go to Vegas three or four times a year, though not because I have a gambling problem—my perfect day in Vegas is spent poking around the city’s downtown nooks and dive bars, miles from the tourist zoo along the strip. And I’m a regular at the annual Coachella music festival in Southern California.”) RRSP contributions: $20,000.

FrozenVent posted:

Now I'm angry. Although I do appreciate the writer's skill in presenting these people as anything but loathsome.

quote:

RRSPs and investments: $0. (“Ha! We live month to month. When we have money left over, we go out.”) Savings accounts for the kids: $1,500. (“We put money in on birthdays and special occasions.”)

quote:

The Jibodus
Household income: $166,000

In their native Nigeria, Margaret Jibodu, who is 49 years old, ran a printing press, and her 52-year-old husband, Oladapo, was an architect. The couple sent their sons, Emmanuel and Iyiope (pictured), to Canada for university, and joined them in Toronto in 2009. Margaret opened HD Printing Press in Vaughan, and her husband manages residential rental properties. “Life here is so much easier,” Margaret says. “We don’t need to pay for chauffeurs or security or health care; in Nigeria, you must pay for everything.”
HOW THEY SPEND IT

Monthly expenses | Mortgage on their four-bedroom house, purchased in 2010: $2,500. Utilities: $300. Rogers for home phone, cable, Internet and two cellphones: $350. Gas for their Chevy Equinox and Chevy Cobalt: $300. Groceries at Loblaws, Metro, Fortino’s and the Oriental Food Mart on Finch West: $1,600. (“I like to cook dishes that I used to make in Nigeria,” Margaret says. “I often make spinach and okra soup and moin-moin, which is black-eyed beans with peppers.”) Eating out: $100. (“We sometimes go to Mandarin or Mr. Greek to celebrate.”) Lunches and coffees: $50. (“I pack a lunch basket for the family almost every day,” Margaret says. “For our health, we try to avoid eating sugary snacks and drinking coffee. I do occasionally like a Timbit, however.”) White wine, usually consumed with Sunday dinner: $80. Books and magazines: $100. Hair salon: $400. Grooming products for Emmanuel and Iyiope: $75.

Annual expenses | Clothing: $3,000. (“I don’t buy as many new outfits as I used to, since I have several nice suits I haven’t worn more than once,” says Margaret. “My new weakness is shoes and bags. I have a red Coach patent leather bag I love that I got for only $379.”) Furniture and furnishings, mostly from The Brick and HomeSense: $1,000. Vacations: $0. (“We have not been on vacation since coming to Canada. It has been work-work-work.”)