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So if you polymorph the dragon into, say, a slug then pick it up and stick it in a sealed container instead of whacking it and breaking the spell, that's presumably okay then? Polymorph requires concentration, I assume.
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Jul 19, 2014 19:48
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Polymorph is absolutely a combat obviation. Like, that's clearly the intention, but you have an hour to set up 136 damage on a helpless toad/mouse/whatever with auto hits/auto crits. If you're a necromancer your 20 skeletons auto hit and auto crit for a cool 340 average damage (160 damage minimum, if you roll 40d10 and get all 1s.) Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 19:55
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Oh okay, it only lasts an hour so I guess that's something. But like Jack the Lad says, having an hour to set up some sort of overwhelming alpha strike on a helpless creature is absolutely the sort of thing that A). turns a theoretically awesome fight against a dragon into a wet fart and B). is almost guaranteed to derail the game while everybody debates over how to do it. What happens when the party throws the polymorphed dragon into the room with the crushing ceiling is everything breaks down into a huge argument with the GM over whether the dragon gets to burst its way out of several tons of crushing stone or is instantly gibbed the moment it reconstitutes itself in a space too small for it to manifest. Or you could just exploit Coup de Grace rules I guess.
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Jul 19, 2014 20:03
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Jack the Lad posted:Polymorph is absolutely a combat obviation. thats ridiculous, as DM i would say as soon as you deal 15 damage the Dragon reverts to normal and the other skeletons are attacking a dragon, not a mouse. You must have terrible DM's edit: also what level does a necromancer have twenty skeletons? treeboy fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 20:04
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treeboy posted:thats ridiculous, as DM i would say as soon as you deal 15 damage the Dragon reverts to normal and the other skeletons are attacking a dragon, not a mouse. You must have terrible DM's Okay, there's an argument to be made about the simultaneity or otherwise of readied actions. Readied actions are obviously only one of many things you can do to kill a Polymorphed dragon, though. Level 8 (since the Dragon is CR8). You raise 4 at a go with a 4th level slot, so raise/raise/rest/raise/raise/rest/raise and save a slot for Polymorph. You can also save 2 slots for Polymorph and go with 16 skeletons.
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Jul 19, 2014 20:13
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also you're assuming there's a dozen or more suitable piles of bones available to Animate Dead from, even the +2 corpses for casting at 4th instead of 3rd requires 2 more appropriate piles. Unless you're in a bone yard i don't see that happening.
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Jul 19, 2014 20:19
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treeboy posted:also you're assuming there's a dozen or more suitable piles of bones available to Animate Dead from, even the +2 corpses for casting at 4th instead of 3rd requires 2 more appropriate piles. Unless you're in a bone yard i don't see that happening. Yeah, you generally have a ton of prep time before you go to fight a dragon. So you hit up some cairns or graveyards or whatever. Assuming you don't already have the materials - personally, if I were a necromancer, I'd cart around a whole bunch of skeletons (disassembled for easy transport) and just raise them as needed. You can totally ignore the skeleton part though if you want. You can turn this boss battle enemy into a cute tiny animal 70% of the time just by saying so, and that's a problem. Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 20:26
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Jack the Lad posted:Okay, there's an argument to be made about the simultaneity or otherwise of readied actions. While in the middle of doing this a gang of monsters attacks you while your resting destroying your skeletons. Or the Dragon goes before the Wizard and turns all of the skeletons into mush with his breath weapon. There is also the fact that if the Necromancer is taken out his skeletons will just rip apart anything alive thats near them. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 20:28
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Isn't the starter set green dragon basically a regular rear end monster for a level 8 party?
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Jul 19, 2014 20:31
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Jack the Lad posted:Yeah, you generally have a ton of prep time before you go to fight a dragon. So you hit up some cairns or graveyards or whatever. Assuming you don't already have the materials - personally, if I were a necromancer, I'd cart around a whole bunch of skeletons (disassembled for easy transport) and just raise them as needed. What if you don't know you are going to fight a dragon. Dons't animate dead require an expensive materiel component as well. Poly Morph will likely be a concentration spell and the Dragon will probably get a save each round. PeterWeller posted:Isn't the starter set green dragon basically a regular rear end monster for a level 8 party?
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Jul 19, 2014 20:32
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MonsterEnvy posted:What if you don't know you are going to fight a dragon. Dons't animate dead require an expensive materiel component as well. If you don't know you're going to fight a dragon, you just Polymorph it instead. Animate Dead does not require an expensive material component. Polymorph is concentration, but there are no periodic saves. It lasts an hour. e: Seriously, Polymorph is the important part here. Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 20:35
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MonsterEnvy posted:What if you don't know you are going to fight a dragon. Now I remeber why I hate 3e so much. Everytime a glaring system hole is pointed, its defenders go "oh, it's only a problem when the DM doesn't do X, Y or Z".
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Jul 19, 2014 20:40
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It's also the DM's that don't let the fighter have level-appropriate weapons are also the ones that tend to let a necromancer run around with 20 skeletons for fun. (it's still stupid, though. 8 skeletons is not unreasonable, and it's the rest of the party that can auto-hit as well. At the very least it's a whole fight reset.)
IT BEGINS fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 20:45
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Nancy_Noxious posted:Now I remeber why I hate 3e so much. Everytime a glaring system hole is pointed, its defenders go "oh, it's only a problem when the DM doesn't do X, Y or Z". Also this. With some specific circumstances and mental acrobatics, you can sometimes make it seem okay (though I think not in this case i.e being able to easily turn a dragon into a mouse). The point is, you don't have to give the same provisos for a Fighter's maneuvers. Like, ever. Because they do things like push a guy (Large or smaller only!) 15 feet. They don't literally transform the game world and the way you interact with it like spells do. They don't allow you to defeat enemies by ignoring big swathes of the rules. IT BEGINS posted:It's also the DM's that don't let the fighter have level-appropriate weapons are also the ones that tend to let a necromancer run around with 20 skeletons for fun. (it's still stupid, though. 8 skeletons is not unreasonable, and it's the rest of the party that can auto-hit as well. At the very least it's a whole fight reset.) As I said, a level appropriate (+2) weapon takes the Fighter's RTK down to 5. And yeah, at the very least with zero questionable stuff it's a free short rest during which the dragon cannot do anything. And narratively? It's a joke. A dragon attacks, you turn it into a mouse and set yourself up to fight it for an hour before it turns back. Imagine that in a book or movie or whatever. Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 20:47
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Where is the encounter construction CR/XP budget stuff, I can't find it for the life of me. edit: found it from earlier in the thread  a Young Green Dragon would be a "Hard" fight for a 4 player party at lvl 8 (with some XP budget left over for minions). "Challenging" doesn't give enough of an XP pool to fit the dragon (3,900xp). I guess my point is that your situations where the party polymorph and finish off the dragon at their leisure are just as specific as those saying it probably wouldn't go down like that. As theres no accounting for specific players (who may just want to fight it normally) or GMs (who may over rule dumb alpha strikes with wandering monsters or miraculous saves) this probably would very rarely go down like a bugged boss in WoW treeboy fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 21:04
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treeboy posted:Where is the encounter construction CR/XP budget stuff, I can't find it for the life of me. If your Wizard wants to cast fireball, that's great. That's never been a problem. But the fact that your Wizard can turn the dragon (as you say, a "Hard" fight) into a mouse 70% of the time, is a problem. There is no niche/specific situation required. If the Wizard has Polymorph prepared (and why wouldn't they) and encounters a dragon, this will happen. You can't say "well the GM can just declare that it miraculously makes its save so it's not a problem" - that's ridiculous. Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 21:24
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treeboy posted:GMs (who may over rule dumb alpha strikes with wandering monsters or miraculous saves) Why pay for a system you have to ignore to make function?
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Jul 19, 2014 21:28
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I don't even care that the wizard can do this. I care that my barbarian doesn't have Supreme Intimidation, which has a 70% chance of paralyzing any creature without restriction for an hour. My fighter doesn't have Infinite Step, which lets him step between space to move many miles instantly. My ranger doesn't have Dimension-ripping arrow, letting him open a portal to Dal Quor, or tear a gap through which demons will attack his enemies.
IT BEGINS fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 21:34
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Generic Octopus posted:Why pay for a system you have to ignore to make function? Exactly. The whole point of the polymorph spell is to trivialise an encounter with one high-value target. If the DM just rules that any worthwhile enemy saves, the spell is a waste of page space.
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Jul 19, 2014 21:40
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treeboy posted:or GMs (who may over rule dumb alpha strikes with wandering monsters or miraculous saves) This sort of thing is the root of a lot of shittiness in RPGs though, from the concept of player/GM antagonism and the idea that the players are a disruptive influence that need to be kept in line by a firm hand lest the upset the GM's carefully constructed setpiece to the idea that it's totally okay for a game to give one class the ability to turn an epic battle into The Wizard Show All About the Wizard because GMs can just fix all the dumb bullshit themselves to starting arguments between the GM and the Wizard player about how the GM is nerfing the Wizard's schtick. In a better designed game this wouldn't even be an issue in the first place and there wouldn't be a need for the GM to overrule anything with arbitrary "oh the dragon makes its save ~somehow~" or "suddenly wandering monsters!"
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Jul 19, 2014 21:53
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Jack the Lad posted:If your Wizard wants to cast fireball, that's great. That's never been a problem. yup just as ridiculous as players which walk through a dungeon poking every flag stone with a 10' pole, yet it still happens or people act like it does. Regardless, my point is that the number of logical leaps one has to take in either situation (polymorph never obviates a challenge vs. always obviates a challenge) are just as tenuous. Additionally if a group of 4 level 8 players are going up against a Young Green Dragon then there will be other monsters to fight as well according to the XP budget, that means concentration checks to hold the spell. Also help me with the math, the Dragon has a +4 will save, and a lvl 8 wizard would be DC16. So 12+ would save, which puts it closer to 55% edit: on top of that, even if you succeed and turn it into something with 5hp, as soon as 5 damage is done to it the dragon reverts to normal with 136hp (minus any extraneous damage from the hit that 'killed' it) and proceeds to continue the fight. I'm not saying the system doesn't have issues i'd prefer ironed out or eliminated, but this isn't the rosemary's baby of RPG systems. treeboy fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 21:55
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I think a big issue of caster supremacy is due to legacy stuff from earlier editions. Wizards in earlier editions weren't guaranteed to find a spell just because they wanted it, and they weren't guaranteed to learn it even if they found it; remember, if you failed your chance to learn a spell, you couldn't try again until you gained a level. Part of the game was trying to find spells for your wizard.  They really need to split casters up. I've thought of splitting it up based on specialists; one school you specialize in, with limited access to maybe two other schools depending on your specialization.
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Jul 19, 2014 21:55
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Thalantos posted:I think a big issue of caster supremacy is due to legacy stuff from earlier editions. Wizards in earlier editions weren't guaranteed to find a spell just because they wanted it, and they weren't guaranteed to learn it even if they found it This is still true, though I don't think there's spell copy failure anymore. But a wizard doesn't automatically get spells each level, at least last time i checked.
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Jul 19, 2014 21:57
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'Boss' fights have always been a problem. Even 4e had problems with it, though it was admittedly far less egregious. The source of the problem is mostly about action economy. When you have one enemy who is supposed to carry all of the drama and action of a scene anything the invalidates their ability to take actions will basically make the whole scene into a parody of itself. In 4e we had this problem with alpha striking and hard control. Late-game editions did curb that somewhat (variable resistance and off-turn saves frex) but it was still basically the same problem. Oh sure, typically you'd need to actually play out the whole fight since there's no SoD in 4e, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that Dominating an enemy off a cliff or forcing a dragon to punch itself is somehow 'epic storytelling' or anything. Gods and poo poo high-paragon and up were mostly fixed late into the game line, but down at heroic it was much the same problem as always. The problem is primarily with the dissonance between the way DnD paces its encounters and traditional storytelling. Next is a step back in the way boss-fights are handled but it's still perfectly in line with DnD's sheer lack of drama surrounding such things. The coolest abilities are the ones that 'solve' enemies and the coolest encounters are the ones with one combatant.
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Jul 19, 2014 22:16
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treeboy posted:But a wizard doesn't automatically get spells each level, at least last time i checked. Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook. - Basic 31 This is important because there aren't any friendly wizards in the starter set, and there is a chance the bandit wizard will completely escape leaving any PC wizard high and dry without this rule. Edit: Oh, Treeboy, did you figure out how to make up some more monsters? Now that I have the starter set I might be able to give it a shot if you still need help. DalaranJ fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 22:19
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DalaranJ posted:Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two i haven't actually sat down and looked at it yet, work's been busy with OT, go for it though for sure
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Jul 19, 2014 22:28
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treeboy posted:i haven't actually sat down and looked at it yet, work's been busy with OT, go for it though for sure In the Gming thread you said you want to run something dark and foreboding. Can you narrow that down? What kind of monsters are you looking for here?
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Jul 19, 2014 22:36
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Honestly I think the big problem with polymorph discussion is that the info being used is once again outdated. Lots of spells were changed from that beta PHB to the final version. Polymorph is powerful in this beta state and I don't see it staying that powerful in the final version. Honestly Jack the Lad I kind of just don't like you using the material that has been shown to have changed in many ways as problems with the game.
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Jul 19, 2014 22:39
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DalaranJ posted:In the Gming thread you said you want to run something dark and foreboding. Can you narrow that down? typical gothic horror kinda stuff. Vampires, werewolves, demons, frankenstein monsters, golems, etc. Anything creepy dark that goes bump in the night. A little dash of Lovecraft/tentacular horrors since it also has a somewhat nautical/island theme, mad scientists, evil sorcerers, Innistrad from MTG. Things along that vein. edit: extra lovecraft treeboy fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 22:41
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Okay, thanks. I'll give it my best shot.
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Jul 19, 2014 22:46
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Polymorph looks fine to me. Why do you guys assume the enemy just gives up and lets you rest or reenact the ending of Hero or whatever while it's polymorphed? Can't it run away and/or deal like 10 damage to itself to get back to its old form? Isn't that the real clock, not the spell duration? Unless you use a real followup save or die that doesn't 0 out the target--finger of death, flesh to stone, magic jar, maybe destruction--polymorph alone is just a "save or we take a mid fight break blow resources to heal the damage we took," not an instant fight winner. An "oh poo poo we got jumped by a wandering monster while resting" control spell. None of real save or die spells even made it to Basic, though, just Power Word Kill, which is level 9 and pretty bad. With any luck they'll make the glass cannon blaster wizard that's actually fun to play as and with the main kind of spellcaster. As an aside, it'd be a pretty cool sneak attack: the party runs into a sheep that's just banging its head against a rock, then it falls over and turns into a pissed off surprise dragon that someone else polymorphed and bypassed. Sort of like the sleeping monster that the party gets one free crit on it before it wakes up, except this one also changes form. That's the right ruling to make, by the way, gently caress that 300 damage simultaneous auto crit double overkill theoretical optimization nonsense. Or you could have the party fighting some goblins or whatever, then a dragon shows up to eat everyone before somebody polymorphs it. Then whoever starts losing the fight runs up to the sheep with their sword drawn like Indiana Jones on the rope bridge and starts trying to make a deal. slydingdoor fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Jul 20, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 23:32
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ritorix posted:The key to TOTM combat is to accept the DM rulings. If she says Burning Hands hits 2 enemies, don't argue that it should really hit 3. Once a table gets into arguments about how many critters are caught in a fireball or how safe it is for a rogue to dash through a melee and blah blah blah, the game is derailed. The DM has to rule on things, but also has to loosen up about specifics. If a dragon breath is described as a '30 foot cone', that has a specific meaning in grid play but in TOTM translates to 'a bigass cloud of gas'. You pick a few folks that are probably in the area to make saves and move on without agonizing over who is 5' away from the cone. 'IT'S LESS MECHANICAL, AND MORE THEATRICAL'. It's also less of a game. If the fights are defined by GM fiat, your game will become a carnival ride. If the players can't reliably take actions in combat, where can they take action? You can't challenge them if everything is down to your whim. I know plenty of GMs are down with being god, but it's one of those easy answers a game like 5e gives which don't tell the whole story. Passive players, GM burnout, phone-playing and more, these are not the kind of big, flashy problems that end up on Bad Game Story threads, but they kill games, and kill the community. And worse, they can creep up on you, even if you're watching for them. A lot of the ambiguous language used to describe bad games- and bad players and bad GMs, it's actually about bad design. I mean for real, how are you supposed to avoid being a 'railroad DM' is combat proceeds entirely on your whim? How is somebody playing a wizard going to avoid being labelled a 'rules lawyer' just because they want their polymorph spell to work? Not to mention the many styles of bad player that arise from lovely fighter design. The idea of trying to guard against that, while every fight proceeds according to your godlike whim? Yeah I know it's traditional, but that doesn't make it a good thing. One of the key goals of rpg design should be to ensure people know where they stand, at least a fair bit of the time! Sure, the GM can re-arrange the scenery and do anything else they want, but when they throw down with the players, their players should matter, instead of just endlessly asking 'what do I have permission to do here?' Amethyst posted:Eh I think TOTM shouldn't rely on the DMdeciding on indistinct rule boundaries. It's absolutely possible to do TOTM with precision, you just need to accept a certain level of abstraction. 13th age does a great job abstracting positioning. Things like area affect spell effects are perfectly precise in something like Wizardry, where monsters are divided into groups who move together. One AOE = one group. Simple, no need to argue with the DM. MonsterEnvy posted:Honestly I think the big problem with polymorph discussion is that the info being used is once again outdated. Lots of spells were changed from that beta PHB to the final version. Polymorph is powerful in this beta state and I don't see it staying that powerful in the final version.
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Jul 19, 2014 23:40
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A Catastrophe posted:And when will that final version be released? Supposedly in the PHB in august. The most recent spell versions available are from Feb. 2014 (if they're not in Basic/Starter Kit)
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Jul 19, 2014 23:52
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slydingdoor posted:Polymorph looks fine to me. Why do you guys assume the enemy just gives up and lets you rest or reenact the ending of Hero or whatever while it's polymorphed? Can't it run away and/or deal like 10 damage to itself to get back to its old form? Isn't that the real clock, not the spell duration? Pretty hard for a slug to hurt itself or run away quickly. It's not really the point, anyway. It's still stupid that a wizard can go 'no, we are not having this fight right now' when a fighter has to go 'better start stabbing this thing' because he has literally no other option.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:01
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Oh, I figured out monsters. Well, I figured out monsters in the way that monsters would be figured out for 4e, but this is clearly not how Mearls and co are doing it. 1dX+Con HP per CR (starts at 0). The game uses the following: Large: d10. Medium: d8. Small: d6. Tiny: d4. This causes a lot of problems if something's ludo/narrative role doesn't agree with its size category. Damage is a bit funkier for the CR<1 creatures, but what it should be is 1d8+2 as baseline for CR1, then an extra 1d8/CR. Defences and everything else, as done by the game, are: gently caress it, whatever. Personally I'd give AC 13 to casters, 15 to skirmishers, and 18 to defenders, and give everything +3, +2, and +0 to distribute between the major defences, and just ignore that the minor defences even exist. Caster level = CR+2 (basically a caster of a given CR has access to the next higher tier of spells over the PCs at that level) Use the PC to-hit and Spell DC progression. Given that the math of 5e is so often a clusterfuck you can toss crap on willy-nilly to this baseline and blend right in. It makes conversion kinda easy. Basically 5e's design assumes you sparingly use anything with a CR close to the PC level, and mostly just throw hordes of significantly lower CR creatures at them. Given how poorly CR seems to function as a predictor of difficulty I kinda have to agree. If the party's level 8 they should be fighting mostly CR 3-5 monsters.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:08
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A Catastrophe posted:It's also less of a game. If the fights are defined by GM fiat, your game will become a carnival ride. If the players can't reliably take actions in combat, where can they take action? You can't challenge them if everything is down to your whim. Honestly I don't even know where you're coming from here. The entire concept of D&D is 'the GM takes you for a ride'. TOTM only has to do with combat - you already play the entire rest of the game that way. There are sound arguments about the rules properly supporting TOTM or not, or it being more or less efficient or time consuming than a grid, but saying it goes against the spirit of a make-believe game and somehow takes away player agency is way off the mark.
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Jul 20, 2014 01:38
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No, that's exactly what player agency is. The system is about player agency. That's all they get to do anything with, apart from asking GM-May-I. The whole reason we play roleplaying Games instead of just doing Freeform Improv is that the system adds a vital dynamic to what would otherwise be a bunch of people asking one person for permission. RPGs are most certainly NOT about the GM taking you for a ride. RPGS are about everyone going on a ride together, choosing together where and how they ride, and system provides a vital point of reference for that collaboration. When most of a game is combat, you better believe that combat needs to be more than GM handwaving. I run a game which is equal parts combat and noncombat stuff, and i've struggled for years trying to support player agency. I'm not convinced player agency even exists outside of system, and it's clear system offers a vital resource for it. I'm certainly not in favor of removing it from the only part of D&D where, at present, players actually get to do the poo poo they want to do. Looking back over the years i've run 4e, i'm confident in saying many of the best moments in the game would not have happened if i'd been hand-waving all the ranges. I've had would-be-recurring master villains taken down by pcs with one hit point left. One time I had a bunch of villains kidnap an pc in an ambush, and another pc kidnapped their leader right the gently caress back in the last round of combat, leading to a hostage exchange. You can't hand wave that poo poo. And yeah along side that, there's plenty of more fiat or freeform based situations. But you take away those solid cases of agency, you're losing what makes RPGS special. A Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Jul 20, 2014 |
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Jul 20, 2014 02:46
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ritorix posted:The entire concept of D&D is 'the GM takes you for a ride'. TOTM only has to do with combat - you already play the entire rest of the game that way. Disagree entirely. The whole point of RPGs in general is collaborative storytelling through game mechanics. In the case of D&D, pretty consistently, that gameplay has mostly been crunchy tactics gameplay for combat. TOTM (the half-assed implementation that D&D has only ever had) totally undermines that aspect. "GM takes you for a ride" is what happens when RPGs go wrong, due to lovely mechanics, or lovely players/GM, or both. In the case of D&D, when you take away player agency in combat with TOTM, that's pretty much what you're left with. eth0.n fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Jul 20, 2014 |
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Jul 20, 2014 02:51
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Well I suppose I'll just fundamentally disagree with you two on the nature of the GM in an RPG and sources of player agency. A bad GM absolutely breaks a game, whether or not it had a good system, and a good DM saves even bad game systems because their role as ride-maker is so vital. They are the busiest player at the table and have the most demanding and stressful role in the game. There's a reason most players consider it a chore and avoid GM duty. They would rather go on the ride than spend hours designing and refereeing one. That anecdote about a villain's close call and hostage shenanigans is both cool and could have come from literally any edition, with or without a grid. When it comes to 5e, the default assumption of the rules is combat as a conversation. The things a player can do in a fight are well-defined, and with a competent GM the greatest threat to 'player agency' is the roll of dice.
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Jul 20, 2014 03:56
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ritorix posted:That anecdote about a villain's close call and hostage shenanigans is both cool and could have come from literally any edition, with or without a grid. Actually... no. Without a grid, plot-armored villains frequently find themselves whisked out of danger much more readily by their DM patrons.
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Jul 20, 2014 04:10
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