|
ToxicSlurpee posted:Their entire message is "Obama = bad." Really, as long as whatever they're saying boils down to "Obama did *thing* and *thing was wrong because *reason*" then they're on par. Which isn't a bad line to push in a political sense. It makes us gnash our teeth, but Obama isn't particularly popular right now and reminding people that he's the president and a Democrat helps the GOP.
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 03:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:44 |
|
|
Mr Interweb posted:http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/20/fox-host-calls-out-ted-cruzs-false-compassion-on-border-crisis-your-plan-doesnt-help-the-kids/ It comes down to his (professed) belief in incentives. The kids and their families have incentive to come here because of the law that requires a full hearing to determine refugee status. Without that requirement, ICE (or the Border Patrol, not sure which) would just dump them on Mexican soil and dust off their hands. Cruz wants to eliminate that "perverse incentive", not wanting to believe that it would do poo poo all other than cause the kids to avoid Border Patrol. In Cruz's world, the kids will simply stop coming. Typical Republican mindset: don't deal with the root cause, sweep it under the rug, punish anyone who says "There's dust under the carpet", and move on to bitching about the you-know-what that stupid libruls voted into office.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 13:52
|
|
|
There's really nothing more perverse than our near neighbors seeing us as a beacon of hope, justice and opportunity. Whatever jerk gave them that impression should be derided for eternity.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 14:02
|
|
|
What I don't get is, if they really wanted to impeach Obama, why not do it for something like his use of surveillence technology against domestic citizens?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 14:50
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:What I don't get is, if they really wanted to impeach Obama, why not do it for something like his use of surveillence technology against domestic citizens? I think you know the answer to that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 14:55
|
|
|
anonumos posted:It comes down to his (professed) belief in incentives. The kids and their families have incentive to come here because of the law that requires a full hearing to determine refugee status. Without that requirement, ICE (or the Border Patrol, not sure which) would just dump them on Mexican soil and dust off their hands. Cruz wants to eliminate that "perverse incentive", not wanting to believe that it would do poo poo all other than cause the kids to avoid Border Patrol. In Cruz's world, the kids will simply stop coming. While I won't credit him with thinking this deeply, it also serves another more insidious goal: if the kids continue to come and now DON'T give themselves in, they are no better than any other illegal immigrant and therefore should be punished to the full extent of the law and are shown to be the "miscreants who lack respect for the rule of law they really are."
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 15:35
|
|
|
Jack Lessenberry's a good political journalist and commentator who's been at it as long as I can remember. He does pieces for the local Michigan papers and radio, got a good voice for it, generally a decent fellow. It's nearly a week old at this point, but he's written an incredibly dispiriting piece that's still making the rounds.Excerpt posted:Is our democracy broken beyond repair? When we look at what’s happening in both Lansing and Washington, does it indicate that representative government is hopelessly corrupt?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 15:46
|
|
|
I've honestly felt like the US democracy is toppling since I was old enough to understand politics. Democracy on this scale doesn't work. Nothing works on a scale this large. That could just be my inner pessimist, but I feel like one of two things is going to happen: a dictator, our Caesar, who brings us into the empire phase in earnest, or fragmentation and collapse.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 15:50
|
|
|
I would think just continuing on the current track of allowing capitol to control every aspect of government until eventually we are all effectively serfs living to work off credit to somebody and we regress into a feudal society where any sort of attempt to change the status quote is immediately and violently repressed. I don't think the US is going to topple any time soon without some world catastrophe; our military is too powerful (and we have nukes) to allow anyone to usurp out throne as world bully which go pretty far in making sure our businesses have an edge.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 15:56
|
|
|
Ofaloaf posted:Jack Lessenberry's a good political journalist and commentator who's been at it as long as I can remember. He does pieces for the local Michigan papers and radio, got a good voice for it, generally a decent fellow. It's nearly a week old at this point, but he's written an incredibly dispiriting piece that's still making the rounds. Honestly, it's a pretty good reflection of the average voter's cynical depression about the political system. Pretty much everyone I talk to who doesn't already have a stake in the SJW race or watch Fox News religiously and post about it on Facebook has the attitude of, "We can't change it, why bother?"
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 16:11
|
|
|
Ofaloaf posted:Jack Lessenberry's a good political journalist and commentator who's been at it as long as I can remember. He does pieces for the local Michigan papers and radio, got a good voice for it, generally a decent fellow. It's nearly a week old at this point, but he's written an incredibly dispiriting piece that's still making the rounds. Michigan might be completely broken but congress isn't completely broken yet. If gerrymanders get worse in 2020 though...
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 16:30
|
|
|
Radish posted:I would think just continuing on the current track of allowing capitol to control every aspect of government until eventually we are all effectively serfs living to work off credit to somebody and we regress into a feudal society where any sort of attempt to change the status quote is immediately and violently repressed. I don't think the US is going to topple any time soon without some world catastrophe; our military is too powerful (and we have nukes) to allow anyone to usurp out throne as world bully which go pretty far in making sure our businesses have an edge. The most likely scenario is that the U.S. will stagnate and slide downward, maybe leave off a few splinters here and there. It's impossible to predict the future but the right actively sabotaging everything while other nations advance is going to leave the U.S. in the dust. Yeah, we're wealthy and powerful now but we're having problems with internal unrest and increased polarization as well as a massive, powerful political movement whose central platform is "all change is bad." This attempt by the wealthy to rob the country and leave its workers as poor serfs permanently indebted to the wealthy is also going to lead to massive social problems. Worse yet the systematic destruction of public education is going to make it harder to develop and progress while our crumbling infrastructure is going to make it harder to do anything at all. Taken together those things are all going to slowly destroy America. It won't be an overnight collapse but historically speaking those tend to not happen anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 16:47
|
|
|
hobbesmaster posted:Michigan might be completely broken but congress isn't completely broken yet. If gerrymanders get worse in 2020 though... Gerrymandering doesn't help republicans anymore, it only results in people who shouldn't (like cantor) getting primaried and forcing all the moderates away which is most people in the Republican Party means the death of their relevance.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 16:51
|
|
|
Alexzandvar posted:Gerrymandering doesn't help republicans anymore, it only results in people who shouldn't (like cantor) getting primaried and forcing all the moderates away which is most people in the Republican Party means the death of their relevance. Republicans would still be getting primaried even if there wasn't a gerrymander, but in that scenario the primary winners wouldn't be pulling an automatic 60% in the general election no matter what lovely opinion they have. Gerrymandering still ensures that Republicans hold a 53% majority of the House despite pulling a solid minority of the popular votes, it often minimizes damage by keeping Tea Party primary knockouts from flipping seats to Democratic control, etc. On an individual basis it does mean that any given Congressperson might face a primary, but they also might have faced a primary anyway, the Tea Party famously don't give a poo poo if you're a RINO, and the effect for Republicans as a whole is probably positive. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jul 21, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 17:02
|
|
|
razorrozar posted:I've honestly felt like the US democracy is toppling since I was old enough to understand politics. Democracy on this scale doesn't work. Nothing works on a scale this large. This is a really dumb post, especially because the US has been in worse situations throughout the past 100 years than "assholes in Congress preventing bills from being passed". Paul MaudDib posted:the Tea Party famously don't give a poo poo if you're a RINO, Unless your name is Thad Cochran apparently.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 17:14
|
|
|
People have been making comparisons to the Fall of the Roman Republic since ... I don't know the day after the Roman Republic actually fell? Remember that the US once quite literally split apart over ideological differences, and while the current tensions are in many ways related to those same differences that were never quite fully resolved, at least the US isn't contemplating an invasion of Cuba and Mexico just to grab more House/Senate seats.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 17:30
|
|
|
So I spent the weekend bourbon in hand following Netroots Nation streams on one screen and video games on the other. There wasn't a dedicated thread for it like we do CPAC, but honestly you didn't miss much. Definitely a lot less energy than you see at CPAC, fewer politicians making an appearance, and it seemed a little more stilted than usual. Reports from people who were there seem to paint is more as a trade show for professionals on the left side than a rally and connection spree like CPAC. Also, giant paper mâché Newt Gingrich head someone was toting around notwithstanding there did wasn't much in the way of insane dress up like you see at tea bagger rallies and comic book conventions, always disappointing. If you can find them though some speeches were totally worth catching. Warren, obviously. She was calling for a fight and it was wonderful. Biden on Thursday gave an unexpectedly good one that hasn't been getting much attention, basically the same content as Warren's with taking on income inequality and the 1%, but framed as less combative. He kept riffing on the theme of "imagine", as in "imagine an America where people have easy access to mental health treatment". It was a new pitch that could sell. And Rev. Barber was there giving a speech, if you haven't caught anything he's been doing with the Moral Mondays you have been missing out, that guy can give a barn burner. Anyways, a PAC called "Ready for Mitt" is filed today http://deseretnews.com/splash?skipS...co%2FMY9Zesl3Aj
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 17:58
|
|
|
I swear to God you people are worse than "Obama is ruining this country  " folks. This is ridiculous and your trajectories are poo poo, even worse that you're bothering to try and predict the future when in all likelihood Dems will take Congress in 2020/2030 and abuse gerrymandering for themselves.Go back to drinking. EDIT: Want to watch the REAL downfall of a nation and its politics? Keep an eye on Iraq, Thailand and the I/P conflict in Gaza. Compared to that, US politics is an MTV reality TV show based on #firstworldproblems. Amergin fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jul 21, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:00
|
|
|
Amergin posted:EDIT: Want to watch the REAL downfall of a nation and its politics? Keep an eye on Iraq, Thailand and the I/P conflict in Gaza. Compared to that, US politics is an MTV reality TV show based on #firstworldproblems. Not that I disagree with your general point here about the doomsaying being ridiculous, but "better than Iraq" is not the bar we should be measuring our country by.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:10
|
|
|
Jackson Taus posted:Not that I disagree with your general point here about the doomsaying being ridiculous, but "better than Iraq" is not the bar we should be measuring our country by. "Better than I/P in Gaza" is pretty much the lowest bar you can set short of going Godwin and just going "better than Nazi Germany".
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:17
|
|
|
References "A Modest Proposal" but I'm still not sure how satirical this thing is supposed to be.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:18
|
|
|
Jackson Taus posted:Not that I disagree with your general point here about the doomsaying being ridiculous, but "better than Iraq" is not the bar we should be measuring our country by. Point taken, but to me the inverse is almost as bad - we're comparing our "Democracy" to European nations that have been around for centuries longer, have different cultures, smaller and more dense populations, and a different way of thinking about capitalism? I mean if you think Europe is so much better, go there. EDIT: Not to mention the whole Rome comparison. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:21
|
|
|
razorrozar posted:I've honestly felt like the US democracy is toppling since I was old enough to understand politics. Democracy on this scale doesn't work. Nothing works on a scale this large. "Nothing works on a scale this large" oh boy guys three hundred million people, guess we've reached the upper limit for government. There's simply no possible way any country larger than the United States could function. Alternatively, what country in the world does "work" by your standard?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:22
|
|
|
razorrozar posted:I've honestly felt like the US democracy is toppling since I was old enough to understand politics. Democracy on this scale doesn't work. Nothing works on a scale this large. Why not both?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:26
|
|
|
Amergin posted:I mean if you think Europe is so much better, go there. This is not an option if you are not rich, well educated and white.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:26
|
|
|
Talmonis posted:This is not an option if you are not rich, well educated and white. Even if you were already in Europe if you're not those things you're not going to have a good time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:29
|
|
|
Talmonis posted:This is not an option if you are not rich, well educated and white. So obviously all of the Turks who come to western Europe and get work are all rich, well educated and white? It's harder, sure, but it's not impossible by any stretch. You can go to a popular port, offer up labor on a yacht or other expedition, get dropped off in Europe and work quick manual jobs for a while to see how wonderful its Democracy is.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:30
|
|
|
Amergin posted:I mean if you think Europe is so much better, go there. It's far more responsible to try and fix things* than to just be Brian Boyko and run away to New Zealand for a spell. *or agitate for fixing things, depending upon the level of control and responsibility one has in relation to the government. One dude alone can't repave all the roads in a state, etc.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:32
|
|
|
Telling people to cross the Atlantic as help on some dude's
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:32
|
|
|
Amergin posted:So obviously all of the Turks who come to western Europe and get work are all rich, well educated and white? You do know that wandering into a country is not the same as being a citizen with full access to the social systems that hold it aloft right? Regardless of the constant racism in Europe, that does not invalidate the effectiveness of the support system. Especially in comparison to the non-existant ones of the third world or the neutered ones of the U.S.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:34
|
|
|
Talmonis posted:
The support system exists because of the inherent racism of the system.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:34
|
|
|
Amergin posted:It's harder, sure, but it's not impossible by any stretch. You can go to a popular port, offer up labor on a yacht or other expedition, get dropped off in Europe and work quick manual jobs for a while to see how wonderful its Democracy is. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:36
|
|
|
computer parts posted:The support system exists because of the inherent racism of the system. I see Republicans use this excuse all the time. "Oh we can't have welfare because those lazy (insert minority here) will just eat lobster and mah tax dollars!" It's bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:37
|
|
|
Talmonis posted:You do know that wandering into a country is not the same as being a citizen with full access to the social systems that hold it aloft right? Social security was 24% of the 2013 budget, Medicare+Medicaid+CHIP was 22% of the budget, general "other" safety net programs were 12% of the budget. Altogether, almost $2 trillion. That's "neutered"?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:37
|
|
|
Amergin posted:Social security was 24% of the 2013 budget, Medicare+Medicaid+CHIP was 22% of the budget, general "other" safety net programs were 12% of the budget. Altogether, almost $2 trillion. That's "neutered"? You're just throwing out figures without context. Yes, it's a lot of money - what's your baseline?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:40
|
|
|
Amergin posted:Social security was 24% of the 2013 budget, Medicare+Medicaid+CHIP was 22% of the budget, general "other" safety net programs were 12% of the budget. Altogether, almost $2 trillion. That's "neutered"? Yes, compared to what it could be and has been in the past. You can thank Reagan for that. Further, the issue is that they're all at the edge of a knife during this latest round of "Let's sprint to the right".
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:43
|
|
|
Talmonis posted:I see Republicans use this excuse all the time. "Oh we can't have welfare because those lazy (insert minority here) will just eat lobster and mah tax dollars!" It's bullshit. That's exactly what I'm talking about. That excuse is believed by a large number of white people and it's only due to ethnic homogeny (as least until lately) that you didn't see it in other regions of the US/world. Just as a historic example - The New Deal coalition only kept together during the Great Depression because whites were favored over black people for social programs.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:45
|
|
|
Talmonis posted:Yes, compared to what it could be and has been in the past. You can thank Reagan for that. Further, the issue is that they're all at the edge of a knife during this latest round of "Let's sprint to the right". So, what... everything short of the New Deal is "neutered"?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:48
|
|
|
Talmonis posted:This is not an option if you are not rich, well educated and white. What if you're two out of three 
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:44 |
|
|
Amergin posted:Point taken, but to me the inverse is almost as bad - we're comparing our "Democracy" to European nations that have been around for centuries longer, have different cultures, smaller and more dense populations, and a different way of thinking about capitalism? Most European countries haven't really been around that long in their modern form - ignoring all the post-Cold-War stuff, Germany's only been a distinct country since 1870 or so, Italy's what, like 1850? France has only really been a democracy continuously (excepting Nazi occupation, obviously) since 1870, and Great Britain wasn't really democratic until 1832's Parliamentary Reforms. And most of their social stuff took off around the same time as it did with the Progressives in the US or in the post-war timeframe. This idea that Germany can do things as a country we can't because they've been around longer I don't think is very valid. I'd challenge the culture/capitalism one - by and large Americans and Germans and Britons are pretty similar. And when actually asked in surveys, a lot of Americans wind up being generally sympathetic to a fairer income distribution or similar liberal ideas on a philosophical level. There's not a lot of support for an NHS-style system here, but by-and-large folks agree with Europeans that everyone should have health-care. I think a lot of this is that our pre-existing system constrains folks' options. Absent crushing debt, I think you'd find a lot of people who would trade a 25% raise for a 4-day workweek, for instance. I'll give you population density, but that's only really relevant to some forms of infrastructure like mass transit and broadband internet (and even then, we have large stretches of the country with higher population densities). But any way you slice it, the countries of Europe are about the same population as the US combined. Plus the big countries there (Britain, France, Germany) are all in the 60-80 million people range, so it's not like they're all Liechtenstein by any means. Amergin posted:So obviously all of the Turks who come to western Europe and get work are all rich, well educated and white? Low-skill blue-collar immigrants aren't highly regarded anywhere. The Turks are basically the Mexicans of Germany. To argue that America treats its citizens better than Europe treats its immigrant laborers is again, not really a high bar at all. O/T: Amergin, you've mentioned that you've found conservative forums with a similarly high signal-to-noise ratio to this, would you mind sharing? I don't want to go poo poo them up or whatever, but I always appreciate an opportunity to see what they think without it getting filtered through screaming folks in tri-corner hats.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 18:53
|
|