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Saltin posted:All it takes is for them to default on any of the material debts (i.e mortgage and HELOC) they manage to become a net negative to the "people". I mean, I'm not seriously arguing that this is a sensible way to live, but the lifestyle of these people is like the opposite of the caricature of 1%-ers who are ostensibly hoarding all of their income. I thought that my coworkers (mostly people in their mid-late 20s or early 30s who make similar amounts of money) were terrible with spending, but these people are in an entirely different class. I was also surprised to see that most of the people profiled seemed to have pretty reasonable mortgage payments relative to their incomes -- they just blow money in other ways I can barely fathom. And I dunno, even if all these people default on their mortgages anyways they'll have probably paid a million or two in taxes and blown through another million or two in all the poo poo they've consumed. They are contributing a lot more to the economy than a frugal middle-income family would.
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Jul 21, 2014 07:20
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blah_blah posted:And I dunno, even if all these people default on their mortgages anyways they'll have probably paid a million or two in taxes and blown through another million or two in all the poo poo they've consumed. Those taxes go towards running government services which they have constantly consumed. They haven't "broken even" if they pay a million in taxes over their lives and default on a million dollar insured mortgage.
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Jul 21, 2014 14:24
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Rime posted:The person who lives in a van in Vancouver while holding down a decent job is the smartest person around, IMO. Talk about money in the loving bank. itt people literally aspire to Matt Foley. 
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Jul 21, 2014 14:27
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/road-scholars-bcs-cash-strapped-students-take-to-living-in-their-cars/article4468327/quote:As Vancouver’s university students stare down the final weeks of August, attention turns to where to live come Sept. 1. For some, faced with rising rents and long waiting lists for on-campus housing, the solution is extreme: Moving into their cars. Trevor is the most vancouver ever. Seems like literally anyone can call themselves a doctor these days. http://drerikson.com/bio/
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Jul 21, 2014 14:33
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^ Holy poo poo his bio reads like an onion article
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Jul 21, 2014 14:48
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These are the people who live(so to speak) in Vancouver. Also, there are 67 sq ft vans?
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Jul 21, 2014 15:11
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^ Living with your kid in a van, saving money for your house down payment. That is some serious sunken cost dedication to the canonical white picket fence dream. Most Vancouver thing ever. blah_blah posted:I was also surprised to see that most of the people profiled seemed to have pretty reasonable mortgage payments relative to their incomes -- they just blow money in other ways I can barely fathom. If you bought your (non-actual mansion) home 10+ years ago, your mortgage would be quite reasonable. Houses in Vancouver were generally only 250-450k (and that would be a nice home) around 2003, and that was already fairly elevated after a few years of increases. These people won't be defaulting other than what they would normally do, and even so won't take the countries economy with them. Now, in the incredibly like event that these people have HELOCs that cover most of their now million dollar homes equity this is where their problem comes from. This is likely not (but some probably are) CMHC insured though. The defaults that will sink the CMHC will come from people that bought more recently. Unless you are seriously rich, you aren't even furnishing that place let alone have a $800 monthly wine budget.
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Jul 21, 2014 15:25
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So a different friend in the military is moving from Victoria. He's been here for a few years and of course, knowing he would only be here for a few years, bought a loving condo. It helps when the military pays your moving costs and buying/selling fees of course, but holy poo poo he's lost $60,000 on his condo in just 3 years plus he has to move right now, found a buyer, but his strata lost some important document that is preventing him from selling. They say it will take up to 6 months to get this document and no one in the building can sell till then. Also they refuse to allow rentals, even in his temporary case. He's excited to buy his next condo or small house in his next posting because "renting is throwing away money plus it's just so much nicer to own"
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Jul 21, 2014 15:43
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^  I don't even...edit: you should grab him by the lapels and shake him until he understands: "Losing sixty grand plus whatever the taxpayer shelled out to the realtor also qualifies as throwing money away!!!"
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Jul 21, 2014 16:24
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gently caress your friend and gently caress the Canadian military
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Jul 21, 2014 16:38
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He'll never rent because he doesn't feel comfortable living in someone else's property. Plus building equity, pride of ownership and so on. I just can't figure out what loving document a condo strata lost that is preventing him from selling and takes 4-6 months to replace?? How can a strata be so incompetent?? I guess because it's made up of people who think losing 60k over 3 years is just the "risks of investing" but renting is "throwing away your money" God how was it explained to me. You see when you buy you have a very good chance to at least break even, maybe make some money, maybe lose some. When you rent you're guaranteed to lose money since it's all going to someone else. I also though found out my other military friend so far has only been renting housing because even with the military paying all the fees who the gently caress buys and sells house every 3 years?? It's some sort of military associated rental housing that mostly (or only) rents to military members at very cheap rates. Even with those available though he was saying you're constantly bombarded by people telling you you should really buy. Like it's pretty much official advise to help the troops build equity. \/ These people have their closing costs and all that paid for by the military in a bid to help the troops enjoy PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP to compensate for them having to move around so much. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 16:40
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Baronjutter posted:He'll never rent because he doesn't feel comfortable living in someone else's property. Plus building equity, pride of ownership and so on. Do these people somehow not understand that financing and closing costs are in fact real expenses, i.e. real depletions of actual cash?
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Jul 21, 2014 16:41
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I'm going to talk to him soon, I want to hear his condo value and missing document story in more detail and ask what exactly the military covers in terms of closing/financing.
Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 16:47
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Baronjutter posted:God how was it explained to me. You see when you buy you have a very good chance to at least break even, maybe make some money, maybe lose some. When you rent you're guaranteed to lose money since it's all going to someone else.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:23
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Read it and weep, millenailures: http://business.financialpost.com/2014/07/19/richest-seniors-ever-how-the-luckiest-generation-keeps-making-money-and-spending-it/
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Jul 21, 2014 17:29
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Lexicon posted:Read it and weep, millenailures: http://business.financialpost.com/2014/07/19/richest-seniors-ever-how-the-luckiest-generation-keeps-making-money-and-spending-it/ quote:"the poor Millennial"... quote:Exactly, I did not go on an airplane for a holiday until I was 31 years old. My 19 year old son goes to Mexico once a year and Las Vegas twice a year. Oh boo hoo the young generation has it so bad. Blood...Pressure... 
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Jul 21, 2014 17:37
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Lexicon posted:Read it and weep, millenailures: http://business.financialpost.com/2014/07/19/richest-seniors-ever-how-the-luckiest-generation-keeps-making-money-and-spending-it/ I wonder what that's going to do to the whole seniors industry. In Victoria there's so so many huge luxury seniors complex that range from just condos with age restrictions to full on nursing homes. They are ridiculously expensive and many market them selves as "cruise ships on land". My generation can't afford to put our parents in luxury like this, and it's not like my parents have any savings. How is this huge sector going to fair once it's in debt to their eyeballs boomers needing "assisted living" let alone my generation? I'm like the only person I know seriously saving for retirement and there's no way I'm going to afford some $3000 a month luxury retirement home.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:38
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Baronjutter posted:I'm going to talk to him soon, I want to hear his condo value and missing document story in more detail and ask what exactly the military covers in terms of closing/financing. The coverage usually includes a real estate agent's 5% commission and legal fees but not costs related to non-portability of the mortgage.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:50
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Rime posted:Blood...Pressure... The "I didn't go on a plane until I was $AGE  " statement is a remarkable piece of myopia. It's about as roughly as intelligent a statement as someone who was a teenager in the 80s complaining that "teenagers nowadays have iPhones, and I didn't have that".
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Jul 21, 2014 18:00
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Oh believe me, the whole "fancy drat phones and vidya game machines!" rant as an example of how we must have it better than the Boomers did is incredibly common.
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Jul 21, 2014 18:14
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Baronjutter posted:I wonder what that's going to do to the whole seniors industry. In Victoria there's so so many huge luxury seniors complex that range from just condos with age restrictions to full on nursing homes. They are ridiculously expensive and many market them selves as "cruise ships on land". My generation can't afford to put our parents in luxury like this, and it's not like my parents have any savings. How is this huge sector going to fair once it's in debt to their eyeballs boomers needing "assisted living" let alone my generation? I'm like the only person I know seriously saving for retirement and there's no way I'm going to afford some $3000 a month luxury retirement home. My in-laws are already facing this problem. The health of my wife's grandma, who is in her mid-eighties and lives alone up island on a fairly secluded piece of property, is rapidly deteriorating, and they've been trying for some time to find some way to get her into a care home. She receives a decent pension and has stubbornly managed to live on her own about an hour's drive away from her nearest family for decades, but now she needs so much care that the cheapest home she can go into will cost about $2,700 a month, and that's in Nanaimo, and not even including several amenities she will probably need soon - her mobility, for instance, is very limited, and to have meals brought to your room costs something like an extra $600 a month. My in-laws do pretty well for themselves, but they just got their last child out the door and now they face the problem of having to pay a a significant amount monthly in care expenses. Most people aren't nearly as independent as she has been when they reach their seventies or eighties, so I can't imagine what the costs will be for the average boomer. I'm thankful that my parents who live in Victoria have declared that the moment they feel they have difficulty in their house they will use its equity to move into something more reasonable and keep the rest for inevitable future costs.
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Jul 21, 2014 18:17
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That wealth statistic is meaningless if old people are more likely to own houses and you're in the middle of a property bubble.
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Jul 21, 2014 18:18
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Lexicon posted:Read it and weep, millenailures: http://business.financialpost.com/2014/07/19/richest-seniors-ever-how-the-luckiest-generation-keeps-making-money-and-spending-it/ I have suddenly developed a hankering for some Soilent Green.
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Jul 21, 2014 18:23
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MeinPanzer posted:My in-laws are already facing this problem. The health of my wife's grandma, who is in her mid-eighties and lives alone up island on a fairly secluded piece of property, is rapidly deteriorating, and they've been trying for some time to find some way to get her into a care home. She receives a decent pension and has stubbornly managed to live on her own about an hour's drive away from her nearest family for decades, but now she needs so much care that the cheapest home she can go into will cost about $2,700 a month, and that's in Nanaimo, and not even including several amenities she will probably need soon - her mobility, for instance, is very limited, and to have meals brought to your room costs something like an extra $600 a month. My in-laws do pretty well for themselves, but they just got their last child out the door and now they face the problem of having to pay a a significant amount monthly in care expenses. Why do your in-laws need to bear the cost? Is her pension and savings not sufficient for it?
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Jul 21, 2014 19:03
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Rutibex posted:Those taxes go towards running government services which they have constantly consumed. They haven't "broken even" if they pay a million in taxes over their lives and default on a million dollar insured mortgage. It's not as if you automatically consume more government services because you make more money. In many cases, you consume less. And even if you default on a mortgage the underlying asset can still be recovered -- the only problem is if the underlying asset is worth much less at the time of recovery than is owing on the loan (i.e., if there is a massive housing market collapse).
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Jul 21, 2014 19:06
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Why do your in-laws need to bear the cost? Is her pension and savings not sufficient for it? Most families have a hard time with the whole "just put her on an ice flow" system of elder care. It's weird human emotional stuff. Generally when parents get old they either have to move in with you so you can take care of them, or if you can afford it you put them in a home. It's a nice awesome bonus when they can afford to do this them selves. Yes if we lived in a developed country this wouldn't be a worry, but like most developing countries a good retirement requires a good family. I hope every Canadian here is having lots of kids so they can possibly support you or help you farm in the future. Also you'll need to have lots of kids because a lot of them may not survive long enough to get that retirement age ROI.
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Jul 21, 2014 19:07
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Baronjutter posted:Most families have a hard time with the whole "just put her on an ice flow" system of elder care. It's weird human emotional stuff. Generally when parents get old they either have to move in with you so you can take care of them, or if you can afford it you put them in a home. It's a nice awesome bonus when they can afford to do this them selves. Yes if we lived in a developed country this wouldn't be a worry, but like most developing countries a good retirement requires a good family. I hope every Canadian here is having lots of kids so they can possibly support you or help you farm in the future. Also you'll need to have lots of kids because a lot of them may not survive long enough to get that retirement age ROI. What about my post suggested anything that you wrote? Until recently I had explicitly budgeted some savings for top-up of one of my parents retirement earnings because they had a business go bankrupt. They've since scraped themselves off the floor and are now back in reasonable financial health again. Put your self-righteous idiocy back in the bottle. I asked why they had to pay directly rather than using the retirement savings of the person going into the retirement home. That's kind of the point of retirement savings / pension. The post even specified that she had lived independently because of a decent pension, so where is that pension going? Presumably she has either a place she is renting which she no longer needs to rent and can apply the rent to the cost of care or she has a house which can be sold and annuitized to also pay the cost of care.
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Jul 21, 2014 19:32
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With the number of people retiring now with only the minimum government pensions, it is going to become a much bigger problem. That gap between no longer independent and long term care is pretty expensive, and your parents CPP/OAS will likely not cover it. I am super thankful that my parents got the religion about retirement saving when they did, otherwise they would be getting parkas for an upcoming Christmas and I would be warming up my ice-flow pushing arm.
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Jul 21, 2014 19:51
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Senior's care, specially if they actually need lots of direct care, is really really loving expensive. Like "it will blow through their pension, house sale, and all their other assets and end up costing their kids money" expensive. Specially since we have better and better ways of keeping people alive for longer.
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Jul 21, 2014 20:03
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Cultural Imperial posted:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/road-scholars-bcs-cash-strapped-students-take-to-living-in-their-cars/article4468327/ This does not seem like a career worth living in a van for.
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Jul 21, 2014 20:04
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Baronjutter posted:Senior's care, specially if they actually need lots of direct care, is really really loving expensive. Like "it will blow through their pension, house sale, and all their other assets and end up costing their kids money" expensive. Specially since we have better and better ways of keeping people alive for longer. It's loving amazing really when you think about it. Modern medical science and healthcare is directly eating up the benefits that increased automation should have provided us. At the same time less people are dying and less people are being born. Almost every single western country is heading towards where Japan is today. 
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Jul 21, 2014 22:31
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Xoidanor posted:It's loving amazing really when you think about it. Modern medical science and healthcare is directly eating up the benefits that increased automation should have provided us. At the same time less people are dying and less people are being born. Almost every single western country is heading towards where Japan is today. Nothing typifies this phenomenon quite like this: http://online.wsj.com/articles/as-births-slow-p-g-turns-to-adult-diapers-1405554364
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Jul 21, 2014 22:36
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I wish our ever creeping retirement ages were more to do with better healthcare and longer lives rather than collapsing pensions systems and finance. I guess it's a bit of both. But our entire concept of pensions and retirement were based on perpetual economic boom, population growth, and people kicking it earlier. I don't know if we'll end up like japan because we aren't insanely racist and xenophobic, what we lose in births we gain in immigration (while the country is attractive). We could end up like Russia though, low birth rate and a country so lovely, corrupt, and polluted people don't really want to immigrate.
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Jul 21, 2014 22:41
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Elder care: Ontario style: http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...-since-november Couple cases of this over the years. Demented parents being kept in closets while being fed cat food.
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Jul 22, 2014 03:42
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Except Japan is a very rich country with a very high standard of living(even if a small minority of Japanese people are kind of lovely), rule of law, an innovative, knowledge driven economy with a huge amount of cultural "soft power" beyond its borders, but people in the west constantly think of Japan as some kind of shithole just because their GDP-growth-in-US-dollar chart doesn't look as nice. "Ending up like Japan" would be a vast improvement over where 99% of countries in the world currently are.
Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Jul 22, 2014 |
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Jul 22, 2014 03:50
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Throatwarbler posted:Except Japan is a very rich country with a very high standard of living(even if a small minority of Japanese people are kind of lovely), but people in the west constantly think of Japan as some kind of shithole just because their GDP-growth-in-US-dollar chart doesn't look as nice. "Ending up like Japan" would be a vast improvement over where 99% of countries in the world currently are. They've also had massive asset deflation in housing, which, to the typical Westerner (especially anglo and especially Canadian anglo) is a fate worse than death.
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Jul 22, 2014 03:52
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Way lower wealth disparity too. And yeah, an awesome housing situation really. Like I said, I see us becoming more like Russia than Japan regarding aging population and economy.
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Jul 22, 2014 03:54
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Baronjutter posted:Way lower wealth disparity too. And yeah, an awesome housing situation really. Like I said, I see us becoming more like Russia than Japan regarding aging population and economy. mainly because they had their own awe inspiring asset bubble in the 80s.
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Jul 22, 2014 03:56
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etalian posted:mainly because they had their own awe inspiring asset bubble in the 80s. 
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Jul 22, 2014 04:07
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I never get tired of pointing out to Anglos that if you use the measurement of GDP per-working age adult, Japan has actually been growing faster in the last 20 years than either the US or the Eurozone. So add that on top of everything people actually buy from housing to gas (hello Yen appreciation) getting cheaper and fewer people competing with you for jobs, housing, etc every year. Heaven forbid that happens here.
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Jul 22, 2014 04:07
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