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The Druid is "Jack of all trades, master of none" personified. It's not exceptional at anything it's doing but it does have a whole hell of a lot of options. I have a friend hopping in on my next game (whenever I can actually manage to get it off the ground) who is building a Druid as a literal Red Mage and it's more or less a perfect conversion.
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Jul 21, 2014 01:51
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-Fish- posted:The Druid is "Jack of all trades, master of none" personified. It's not exceptional at anything it's doing but it does have a whole hell of a lot of options. I have a friend hopping in on my next game (whenever I can actually manage to get it off the ground) who is building a Druid as a literal Red Mage and it's more or less a perfect conversion.
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Jul 21, 2014 02:01
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Something that just came up: there's nothing keeping a Necromancer from just using Deathknell over and over on his turn as long as he has actions, is there? Like, if a couple of enemies are low, he can just pick them off?
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Jul 21, 2014 02:43
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PantsOptional posted:Something that just came up: there's nothing keeping a Necromancer from just using Deathknell over and over on his turn as long as he has actions, is there? Like, if a couple of enemies are low, he can just pick them off? Seems like. If there were three eligible enemies, you could convert your move and standard to quick actions and pick them off.
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Jul 21, 2014 02:59
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Considering how bad necromancer defenses and HP are, you'll probably want to death knell at every opportunity you can get.
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Jul 21, 2014 03:26
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Just had the PCs go through an encounter that was supposed to have a vast amount of scrub-level mooks in it; the necromancer asked if anything was a valid target for Deathknell and we both realized that 90% of the enemies on the board were viable. Great and terrible cackling commenced, which convinced me that the flavor of the class came though 100%.
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Jul 21, 2014 03:40
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PantsOptional posted:Just had the PCs go through an encounter that was supposed to have a vast amount of scrub-level mooks in it; the necromancer asked if anything was a valid target for Deathknell and we both realized that 90% of the enemies on the board were viable. Great and terrible cackling commenced, which convinced me that the flavor of the class came though 100%. You're only supposed to be able to death knell the last mook in a pool.
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Jul 21, 2014 03:45
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Eh, everyone had fun, so I'm not too worried. Besides which, they didn't have any other source of healing. But thank you for letting me know for the future - I'll be playing alongside a necromancer in another game and he'll probably overlook that as well.
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Jul 21, 2014 03:47
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The necromancer didn't take their healing spell?
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Jul 21, 2014 03:52
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The thinking, I believe, was that the paladin would be the normal source of healing and the necromancer would be the backup with Death Knell and Death's Call, but due to multiclassing shenanigans the paladin had to drop one of his talents. He's got it back now from an incremental advance, but for a while it was down to rallies, Deathknell, and their limited potion supply.
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Jul 21, 2014 03:58
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-Fish- posted:The Druid is "Jack of all trades, master of none" personified. It's not exceptional at anything it's doing but it does have a whole hell of a lot of options. I have a friend hopping in on my next game (whenever I can actually manage to get it off the ground) who is building a Druid as a literal Red Mage and it's more or less a perfect conversion. This is also just not really true. You can maybe be passable at one or two things. Maybe three if you take the yawn-inducing Wild Healer. You can get way more versatility out of literally any of the spellcasters besides Druid. Animal Companion is just buffs to your extra attack source. The two caster types are the most interesting out of all the druid's options, but they're pretty fractured and Terrain Caster has some serious usability problems. (Like, it's possible to be better off with Initiate instead of Adept if you don't move around much, thanks to the fact that Adept could end up useless if you're low level and don't swap terrains enough.) Shifter powers are just "have this passive bonus that usually sucks unless you're an adept", especially because you have to shift out of beast form to use any of your other abilities (that are the reason that you didn't take Adept in this set in the first place). Warrior Druid is my favorite thematically but while in theory I like that some of their flexible attacks build on other talents you've taken, in practice it cuts down the options for anyone who focuses on it. Like a Warrior Druid Adept can only get any benefit out of Red Claw every other battle. If you take Beast Spirits, you lose 5% chance to activate one of your powers because you didn't take adept in another talent. It's especially bad because the buffs it gives are thematically similar to the Aspects but have nothing actually to do with them. A lot of them have really rare trigger conditions, including several that don't deserve it. Wild Harmony makes you roll a 16+ to add your Wisdom modifier (probably not maxed out since you're focused on hitting people with a stick) once to a regen spell. That's it. That's all it does. You can only use it once per battle and that takes up one of your flexible attack slots. It wouldn't be that hard, unless you stuck with the generic even/odd ones (of which there are only four, one of which requires Animal Companion to be of any use at all) to go an entire battle without seeing one of your flexible attacks trigger. The probability is even higher if you do anything besides make melee attacks the whole battle. Then there's Wild Healer. You have the privilege of paying a talent to get a maybe better than a cleric's class feature, that you can use half as much (you draw even with them here if you are a level 3+ Adept). I say maybe better because if they make a save after their first regen "tick", it can heal them for more than Heal does, obviously. But if they're in danger, they have to wait for healing to kick in. This would be a cool divide if the Cleric's version wasn't free and the Druid's cost a third of their entire class to use at all and two thirds to use well. poo poo, they already blew an incredible amount of pages (28 vs. the second highest of 16 in 13TW) on the class, they could have given the healer druid some actual interesting things rather than "here's regeneration, here's a slightly stronger regeneration, and then a plain heal. Hope it was worth two thirds of your class". It doesn't even stand up on the versatility claim because a first level wizard (maybe not fair, I know) gets five spells. A druid gets a hard cap at that amount... if they're a warrior druid adept (two flexible attacks) and a caster initiate (one daily plus burn a feat on an at-will). That gives them the appearance of options... except the flexible attacks might not trigger, especially if they use their spell at-will or daily. You could get actual options if you take like... both casters and something besides Warrior Druid, but that leaves you with two daily spells plus one of one regen a battle, an animal companion every other battle, or a beast form that you have to shift out of to use your spells. If you spend a feat you get a spell at-will. This is not even mentioning that mixing caster and melee druids means that you're mixing primary attack stats. So the wizard (and the sorcerer, and the cleric, etc) beats you just with their spell slots. Pile on their actual talents, and it just doesn't seem fair. The 13th Age druid is pretty much the ultimate example of trying to overdesign a class, in my opinion. You take a bunch of things that are thematically linked to the Druid, and instead of picking some and making them work well, you just sort of throw them all in a wheelbarrow and expect your players to pick through the garbage to find the real viable things to use within. This is my second 13th Age screed of the day! I really don't hate the game, I swear. But I was pretty hyped for the Druid at first and it turned out to be a mess, and that makes me upset.
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Jul 21, 2014 04:56
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RyvenCedrylle posted:Ranger There's nothing interesting here. It does double attacks and tracks things. Truth be told when I run demos of this at conventions I'll probably bringer a Seeker character sheet instead (assuming I'm not at an official 13th Age booth). Validation! 
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Jul 21, 2014 04:59
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I haven't played a Druid but I have read through it and made some experimental characters. I did find it to be kind of frustrating. All the Talents just felt a little light, even at the Adept level, and if you're an Adept it's your main thing. It's this "build your class" thing with aggressive spells, support spells, flexible attacks, and passive buffs to pick from. But you can only be good at one of them and bad at the other, or bad at three. The worst example is Wild Healer, I don't know what madman would actually pump 2 talents into Wild Healer. Why not just be a Cleric and have a ton of other cool things to do? Meanwhile, look at the Bard, who gets Flexible Attacks, Passive Buffs, and Support Spells all before Talents! It's like the Bard is a 6 Talent Druid. Could you fix the class by just giving a Druid 4 starting talents, like the Occultist? Or by giving a Druid an additional talent at each tier, like the Ranger? That way you can be good at two things, or so-so at 5. My only worry with that is that it wasn't designed for a double Adept, so something like a Adept Shifter and Adept Warrior Druid might be a bit much. But, I doubt that's the case since Shifter doesn't look that great. A few mediocre daily buffs and an ok basic attack. Even with it stacking on flexible attacks it's nothing to write home about. I have been playing the Monk for a while. I think a lot of the criticisms for the class are spot on. I will say that in my experience, which depends on how the GM builds encounters, a Greeting Fist monk does the most damage in the game. It scales better than improved sneak attack and the monk doesn't just get an average of d8 damage. A lot of the forms come with bonus damage, small buffs or debuffs, or multiple target attacks. Unlike flexible attacks which require the dice to land right, you can always pick what's ideal for the situation. The better abilities often come at the later stages of the forms, so they're paired with higher damage. I think this gives a bonus to the real damage you deal in play, especially if the team is working together and you have a commander or bard who can give you buffs at the right time. So the Monk does keep up on damage, and there are interesting choices. I don't think the class is garbage. But there are two major design decisions that hold it back. The first is MAD, which everyone has discussed to death. We know the problem. The easy fix is to just make damage and attack Dex based, done. But if I was the boss, I'd take it a step further. Make Ki scale inherently. Don't tie it to any stats, just add +3 to the base scale to compensate for the lost wisdom scaling, maybe add +1 at the ability increases. Then have the Monk pick one dominant ability from STR, DEX, and WIS. That ability is used for both attack and damage. If you pick STR, you get a boost to base HP like the Druid. If you pick DEX, you get +1 to disengage checks. If you pick WIS, you get +1 Ki. The STR bonus is better because of defenses. Now you can make a monk who's a Huge Muscled Thug, or a Tiny Acrobatic Killer, or a Wise Mystical Master. Alternatively, just use a Death to Ability Scores houserule. The second problem is forms requiring an attack every turn. It limits creativity, for both the player and the GM. The player will want to attack every turn, no matter what, even if he has a cool idea (Dicey Stunts or a forgiving GM helps with this). But I think it's worse for the GM, because now he knows the player will get frustrated if he does a cool creative set piece fight that might prevent him from attacking every turn. Diamond Focus helps mitigate the problem, but not completely. I'd fix it by having the monk always remember where he is in the forms. If you're at Flow, your next attack this battle will be a Finisher, even if you've been flying the skyship for the last two turns. Make Diamond Focus an improvement on the inherent ability, so now the monk progresses in the forms even if he doesn't attack. Start the fight by running along the walls and breaking the Mystic Mirrors that power the big bad, then jump on his head with a Flow as your first attack in the battle. Make those two changes and you've pretty much fixed the Monk. Maybe actually make 7 deadly secrets instead of 3, but I know that's asking for a bit much. Mr. Prokosch fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 07:49
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Lord Frisk posted:Hey Wade, pass along some compliments from me, this poo poo's top notch. Done, thanks! Lots of people posted:MONK STUFF This is pretty much what the 13th Age Compatibility License is for. The demand is there for many different kinds of monks, so hopefully third party publishers will step up to meet the need. E: That isn't meant to short circuit this discussion of the monk in 13TW. I just genuinely hope publishers see all of this monk talk and jump on it. waderockett fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 18:21
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Fish had a neat idea for the monk I'd like to see him follow up on sometime (HINT HINT NUDGE NUDGE) that gave the Monk the ability to select from a bunch of different move action and quick action options and then depending on what you chose, it changed your basic attack. Sort of like doing an opening, flow and finisher on all the same turn.
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Jul 21, 2014 19:53
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Your opening and flow attacks setting up persistent bonuses that apply to each next step in the sequence is a really cool idea and so obvious in retrospect that I'm angry it's not in the core.
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Jul 21, 2014 20:15
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How well does the statless 13th age houserule work in action? At a quick glance it seems good and looks really tempting.
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Jul 21, 2014 20:51
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So, how broken would it be to: 1: Give the druid extra talents at 5th and 8th (or even just straight out from the start) 2: Let the Monk choose if they use Str or Dex for Attack and Damage Doesn't seem too bad to me, and seems like it addresses a lot of concerns.
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Jul 21, 2014 20:53
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Yessod posted:So, how broken would it be to: I really don't know alot about the Druid so I can't talk about that, but I pretty much run number 2 as a default houserule. That said, since that removes MAD, you might want to remove that extra +2 to an attribute they get since they can now just go STR/WIS or DEX/WIS (as it should have been in core) like everyone else. That said, I don't know if that fixes all their problems.
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Jul 21, 2014 20:58
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Yessod posted:So, how broken would it be to: My only concern with the druid is being a double caster adept. You don't get any action advantages and your selection is still the worst, but that is a lot of daily spells. e: are you really going to go through more of them than you already can by adepting one and initiating the other, though? e2: level 10 caster adepts get 7 and 6 spells per day, respectively, and those are basically all more like "uses of daily spells." Sorcerers get 9 and wizards get loads and some of them aren't even only once per day. I support druids getting extra talent slots as fighters do. Caphi fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 21:02
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Andrast posted:How well does the statless 13th age houserule work in action? At a quick glance it seems good and looks really tempting. It works.. actually, I have no idea. I've seen maybe a dozen people ask how well it works and not one ever answer. If you give it a try via an online setup, I'd love to sit in and either watch or play. 
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Jul 21, 2014 21:18
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RyvenCedrylle posted:It works.. actually, I have no idea. I've seen maybe a dozen people ask how well it works and not one ever answer. If you give it a try via an online setup, I'd love to sit in and either watch or play. I'm fairly certain you don't speak Finnish so that might be a problem. That said my group will probably at least try it since we aren't the biggest fans of ability scores.
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Jul 21, 2014 21:24
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Fess up. Who did this? http://ask.fm/SmilinSammyG Because you're wonderful
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Jul 22, 2014 03:21
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I was thinking something like this for Monk: Note: This is just wild off the wall stuff I've pulled from my tuckus. Pick a Descriptor. Air: Air-Style Monks use Dexterity as their key stat. They are flexible and tend to string together small attacks, chipping away at the opponent while dodging the opponent's retribution. Air Monks generally use unarmed attacks (d6 damage base, but get a bonus to defensive abilities). Earth: Earth-style monks use Constitution as their key stat. They are solid and tend to absorb blows, shrugging off damage and then returning the favor with a massive strike. They generally use solid weapons like staves, staffs and the like. (D10 damage to start, but the least amount of flexibility, the powers they have are more focused on absorbing damage, with only their dailies providing offensive flexibility Fire: Fire-style monks use Strength as their key stat. They are generally fierce fighters, striving for bodily perfection more than spiritual enlightenment. in battle they tend to strike furiously at a target, only moving to a new target once the current one has been defeated. They generally used paired weapons such as chains or butterfly swords. (d8 damage, but a huge amount of flexibility with powers.. but need to make a Normal save to disengage from a target before it's been defeated) Jade (or Void): Jade/Void Style Monks use Wisdom as their key stat. Jade/Void Monks are the antithesis of the Fire-style.. where the Fire-style monk attempts to overwhelm the target, the Jade/Void Monk attempts to redirect the target into a disadvantageous position. They have been known to use Ki attacks to redirect their opponents chi. (d6 damage, but can use abilities to boost allies, or hinder opponents. One ability I was thinking, "Divert the Raging River" is a daily that turns the escalation die into a penalty for one target as long as they continue to strike each turn (Continually redirecting the opponent's chi to keep them from recovering their equilibrium). Their at-wills are like the Chaos Mage (they get a random at-will form depending on a die roll), the situation shapes the Jade/Void Monk's response. Water: Water monks are generally more bookish, nearly scholar like as they seek to gain and use knowledge to change the world. They use Intelligence as their key stat. One of their abilities is a Fail Forward style way to move the plot. "Ah yes, Master Song told me about the Wizzywig. They are fierce guardians, but go into a torpor after eating meat. So all we need to do is to feed it a sheep, and we'll be able to sneak into the wizard's tower while it sleeps off the meal." They use esoteric weapons like the scholar's fan, and the nine-ringed staff. They are generalists in combat Make a ton of forms, with at least two at-wills and one daily being exclusive to each type of monk.
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Jul 22, 2014 07:35
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That actually sounds really cool. You could even make the different types of monks different levels of complexity if you did it right, couldn't you? Like the Earth Monk being kind of simple and focused pure on resisting damage or w/e compared to the Void Monk.
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Jul 22, 2014 08:01
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SirFozzie posted:I was thinking something like this for Monk: This is some great flavor here! This sounds a little like the "Mystic Fist" class I've been working on, except with mine you choose a body(physical) and spirit(mental) stat. Your choice gives different starting benefits (choosing dex or con is it's own reward, to start with)which can be expanded upon with adventurer/champion/epic feats. I kept the ability score choice separate from any talents or techniques, however.
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Jul 22, 2014 11:14
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Captain Walker posted:Validation! I'm going with it for my current campaign, too. I wanted to play an archery shootmans type character but the ranger looked really, really dull. I also looked at the Thief, which looked good but it was half-finished and the later revisions took out the GW2-inspired steal power 
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Jul 22, 2014 14:04
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So, what are the popular houserules people use? Right now I'm considering the aforementioned "druids start with four talent points" and "monks choose either strength or dexterity for both attack and defense."
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Jul 22, 2014 14:30
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moths posted:So what is her deal, anyway? Here's my original draft for her, before Rob Heinsoo worked his magic on it  . I was with a few friends when I got the email about the PDF and we just dropped what we were doing; after downloading it we just jumped straight to her section and spent the next half an hour re-reading it in awestruck amazement.quote:Cecilia Maria Susannah Airn Uncle Khasim fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Jul 22, 2014 |
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Jul 22, 2014 15:00
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One of my players has a multiclassing question, And I want to make sure I'm giving him the right advice. A class combination that has Str as one of its key ability scores would use the key modifier for basic melee attacks, correct? (Assuming that the other class does not have anything funky like Bard where it can choose between ability scores for basic attacks.) Likewise, a combination with Dex as one of its key scores would use the key mod for basic ranged attacks?
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Jul 22, 2014 15:06
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ProfessorCirno posted:So, what are the popular houserules people use? Right now I'm considering the aforementioned "druids start with four talent points" and "monks choose either strength or dexterity for both attack and defense." The seeker class Captain Walker made seems straight up superior to the ranger if you want an archer type. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qkF-NADPPk0TwhFWdNV_xv77jiqNm4srJRCTSnoCwpI/edit
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Jul 22, 2014 15:08
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ProfessorCirno posted:So, what are the popular houserules people use? Right now I'm considering the aforementioned "druids start with four talent points" and "monks choose either strength or dexterity for both attack and defense." I would consider making all Ranger talents cost one talent point except the version of Animal Companion that gives dailies. Swagger Dagger posted:The seeker class Captain Walker made seems straight up superior to the ranger if you want an archer type. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qkF-NADPPk0TwhFWdNV_xv77jiqNm4srJRCTSnoCwpI/edit I hope this class isn't too powerful! I approach the game from a mechanical standpoint, and it seemed that there was a niche for "skilled ranged combatant" in the same way the rogue is a "skilled melee combatant". If there's design space left that you guys would like me to work in for my next class (there will be a next class) I'm open to ideas. I was thinking of a melee-oriented caster of some kind but the Theurge kind of has that sewn up. Also, RyvenCedrylle is working on a polished PDF of the Seeker. If you enjoyed the class's flavor, and you know someone who creates art of stealthy sniper type heroes, particularly the halfling with giant crossbow I mention, please send them his way.
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Jul 22, 2014 15:34
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Here's what I've come up with so far for the Earth Monk. Still need to do: 2 or so Epic Talents, and some forms (thinking of making forms available to all monks, and affinity steps up the ability) Talents: Earth: Adventurer: Strength of the Earth Their attacks do not disturb you, for they are but the howling wind, and you the immovable mountain You recover using d10's instead of d8's for your recovery dice Adventurer Feat: +1 Recovery Champion Feat: When you Make a recovery, you may make a fresh save against a Save Ends Effect Epic Feat: You use d12's for your recovery, and add +1 to your PD Adventurer: Strike with Earth's Focus You may take three hits for each one that you give,.. but then again, one is all you need. Once per battle, before you roll an attack, declare you're using Strike with Focus. You gain +2 to hit for this turn only, and do an additional d4 per level damage. Adventurer Feat: The opponent must make a normal save or be dazed (suffers a -2 to attack until a normal save is made) Champion Feat: You may use Strike With Focus twice a day Epic Feat:The save to avoid being dazed is now a hard save, and the attack does d6 damage per level instead of d4. Adventurer: The Mountain Does Not Crumble Their Fury is spent, and still you stand. Once per battle, you may take a quick action to rally instead of a standard action Adventurer Feat: Once per battle, re-roll a failed save attempt to make a rally. Champion Feat: This ability (and the adventurer feat) resets itself after you roll a natural 20 in combat Epic Feat: When you roll a natural 20 in combat, you gain an extra recovery. Champion: Stoneskin Your skin has absorbed the vitality of the earth. Once per day as a quick action, you gain a +2 bonus to Physical Defense until the end of the battle Champion Feat: You gain a +2 to both PD AND AC while Stoneskin is active Epic Feat: Once per day, while Stoneskin is active, you may make a easy save (6+) against any attack that targets PD or AC. On a successful save, you take half damage Champion: Earthmeld You have discovered a true affinity with the earth. With focus, you shift yourself through the earth to a different location. Once per battle, you may activate this talent to disengage from any number of enemies and reappear in a different location. Champion Feat: When using this ability, roll a normal save (11+), if successful, the use of this ability is a quick action and you may immediately take another action. Epic Feat: This ability is a quick action, and any opponents that you engage using this ability are at a -4 AC until the end of your next turn. SirFozzie fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Jul 22, 2014 |
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Jul 22, 2014 16:27
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waderockett posted:This is pretty much what the 13th Age Compatibility License is for. The demand is there for many different kinds of monks, so hopefully third party publishers will step up to meet the need. I understand what your intention is, but this sounds like a PC game developer saying that the modding community will fix it. It might be for the best, but man does it not really instill a lot of confidence.
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Jul 22, 2014 16:37
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Who is the d20 demographic that the 13TW monk is meant to please? 3e/PF players?
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Jul 22, 2014 16:44
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Captain Walker posted:Who is the d20 demographic that the 13TW monk is meant to please? 3e/PF players? 1) Jonathan Tweet 2)
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Jul 22, 2014 16:50
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Captain Walker posted:Also, RyvenCedrylle is working on a polished PDF of the Seeker. If you enjoyed the class's flavor, and you know someone who creates art of stealthy sniper type heroes, particularly the halfling with giant crossbow I mention, please send them his way. I've got a guy working on some art, but I have no idea when he's going to get that done so any art submissions that y'all (points to everyone) have the rights to would be awesome. I believe the good Captain intends to make a foray into the world of selling RPG stuff. In the meantime, if anyone else has a class to pretty up, you know where to find me.
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Jul 22, 2014 17:11
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RyvenCedrylle posted:I've got a guy working on some art, but I have no idea when he's going to get that done so any art submissions that y'all (points to everyone) have the rights to would be awesome. I believe the good Captain intends to make a foray into the world of selling RPG stuff. In the meantime, if anyone else has a class to pretty up, you know where to find me. That reminds me: Wade, could you direct me to the commercial use policy for the Archmage Engine/13th Age? I can't sell this thing under the Community Use Policy, IIRC, but I'd like to have PWYW as an option.
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Jul 22, 2014 17:39
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ProfessorCirno posted:So, what are the popular houserules people use? Right now I'm considering the aforementioned "druids start with four talent points" and "monks choose either strength or dexterity for both attack and defense." Human racial ability score bonus for all races is one I use. +2 to any one stat just seems more fluid, and allows for more unique race/class combos. Also, Rangers get Tracker as a class feature.
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Jul 22, 2014 19:05
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ProfessorCirno posted:So, what are the popular houserules people use? Right now I'm considering the aforementioned "druids start with four talent points" and "monks choose either strength or dexterity for both attack and defense." For every class I changed AC to key off middle(dex/wis/int) and changed the con hp/recovery bonus to middle(str/con/cha)+1, so that each ability score can control one of the two major subattributes (AC/HP) and one of the two minor ones (PD/MD). GrandpaPants posted:I understand what your intention is, but this sounds like a PC game developer saying that the modding community will fix it. It might be for the best, but man does it not really instill a lot of confidence. Agreed.
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Jul 22, 2014 20:05
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