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phantum posted:You're hosed. That thing is going to blow, whatever you do, don't touch it. Red hot things are painful to touch :3 Well, red in that all the amp rating labels are red, and I thought there were different colored breakers of death.
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Jul 17, 2014 00:17
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rekamso posted:Quick check: I can legally run NM cable (through an interior wall) into a box on the outside of my house, right? And everything connected to that box outside then can't be NM? Yes, but the box type to use depends on what you mean by "on the outside". If that box is flush mount to your siding/brick/stucco/whatever, then you can use an indoor box and put a weatherproof extension box onto it for connecting conduit to. If that box is completely external, then you run it into the rear knockout of a weatherproof box and use a weatherproof clamp for that NM. You would have to use appropriate approved outdoor conduit and fittings, then run either UF or individual THHN cables inside. If you're not going straight down to the ground for burying cable, then I recommend THHN. Individual wires are a LOT easier to pull through conduit.
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Jul 17, 2014 00:57
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Bad Munki posted:Red, you say? Twist: you were dead the whole time. I think I really am. It turns out i have TWO stab-lok panels in this house. Basement:  Hidden in a cabinet in a halfassed extension/office: (def. not 36" of clear space) 
toplitzin fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 01:14
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So, this thread is 118 pages, I have not read it all, so apologies if this is the wrong place. Is this a good place to ask about LED lighting? Prices on LED bulbs are slowly coming down and I am thinking about starting to replace my current bulbs. Specifically I have a large number of 50W Halogens that would be first to go. Any advice? Specific brands to look for or stay away from? Any notions on real world energy savings? I am coming to this without much info.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:07
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emocrat posted:So, this thread is 118 pages, I have not read it all, so apologies if this is the wrong place. They are a great energy savings and last a long time if you buy something of reasonable quality. The easiest ones to get at a decent price seem to be Cree. Be aware that any old school dimmers you have probably won't work with LEDs. You'll need to drop $24 a piece on PWM ("CFL/LED compatible") dimmers.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:16
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emocrat posted:So, this thread is 118 pages, I have not read it all, so apologies if this is the wrong place. I replaced my kitchen's six PAR20 50w halogens with Feit dimmable 45w-replacement BR20 LEDs, two for $8.99 after local rebate (I think $14.99 before rebates). I'm happy with them and they throw out little heat, keeping the kitchen cooler. Only downside is they're slightly dimmer, 450 lumens vs 500. I may ultimately replace them with some 500 lumen Phillips bulbs but they were an extra $10 more per bulb. I have Feit, Cree, and Phillips in my house. The Feit are the best value if you have a Costco and local rebates, prices ranged from about $4/bulb (3-pack of 40w replacements or 2-pack of R20) to $12 (single 60w standard or 65w BR30). Cree are less expensive but lower quality, their anti-shatter coating looks fuzzy and the tip of the bulb is dark. I use Feit for any open fixtures, Cree when it's enclosed (since the coating and dark spot aren't noticeable), and Phillips for my 100w table lamp. You need a CFL/LED compatible dimmer, they're clearly marketed as such. I've had good luck with Lutron, and I would suggest looking at the Lutron Maestro. It's a paddle that you touch once for on (at whatever it was last dimmed to) or off (which dims the lights rather than cutting them off), twice for 100%. I got it for the kitchen and regret not getting it in my basement.
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Jul 18, 2014 19:04
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Only slightly related, but these are the new hotness in LED lighting. Much lower wattage than current fluorescent pendants with the same light output, much better light distribution, and they look like windows. Also they cost the same per linear foot as a dimmable fluorescent pendant. So freaking cool. Can you figure out where the LEDs actually are? It's a pretty cool optical device.
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Jul 18, 2014 19:36
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"dimmable" LEDs should generally work fine with any dimmer, whether or not the dimmer claims LED compatiblity (though it's not a guarantee). One thing to note is that LEDs generally don't dim quite as low as incandescents and may not reliably turn on at very low dimming settings (all of my dimmers start at about 10% which is fine to start them but lower may not work) I've been getting these Philips bulbs and I'm very happy with them: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B4CPKT4/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B4CPL5W/ Not the cheapest LED bulbs available but the quality seems to be quite good.
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Jul 18, 2014 20:00
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Zhentar posted:"dimmable" LEDs should generally work fine with any dimmer, whether or not the dimmer claims LED compatiblity (though it's not a guarantee). A resistance dimmer MAY work fine, but it also may not work at all, make the lights flicker, have a completely meaningless min to max curve (due to very little load compared to the incandescents it was designed for) or appear to work and shorten the life of the driver. This is dependent on the driver design, but you can be 100% sure that you don't have any of these problems by using a PWM dimmer. Zhentar posted:may not reliably turn on at very low dimming settings Which is why good quality PWM dimmers have an adjustment to increase the "minimum brightness" of the switch to the lowest your lights will turn on with.
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Jul 18, 2014 20:20
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I've been trying out all kinds if random Z-wave dimmers with about every LED bulb Home Depot stocks. The two Phillips Zhentar linked from amazon have performed best for me. No audible hum, wide dimming range. No black shadow on the end of the bulb like the Crees have. The "flat profile" Phillips bulbs are a little cheaper and also dim without hum, but don't go as far down as the "flower shape" linked above. eddiewalker fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 20:47
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Motronic posted:This is dependent on the driver design, but you can be 100% sure that you don't have any of these problems by using a PWM dimmer. Fair enough. And unfortunately there's no labeling on either the bulbs or the dimmers that's remotely useful for determining this. Also, I'd warn that a good, "LED compatible" PWM dimmer is very likely going to need a neutral to the switch box, which you may not have.
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Jul 18, 2014 21:21
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Thanks for all the responses, it is very helpful. My problem has always been when I add up the number of bulbs I have the numbers get....daunting. But I am thinking I will start replacing the ones in most frequent use at least. WeaselWeaz, can you elaborate on rebates? Is this a local municipality thing? Or a state program? Do you keep receipts and get a credit at tax filing or are you getting a point of sale cost reduction?
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Jul 18, 2014 21:39
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They are local utility rebates, typically point of sale cost reductions.
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Jul 18, 2014 21:57
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Zhentar posted:Also, I'd warn that a good, "LED compatible" PWM dimmer is very likely going to need a neutral to the switch box, which you may not have. Nope. Plenty are available that are mid to high quality that will even run ungrounded if necessary. The bulk of the Lutron line is like this.
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Jul 18, 2014 21:59
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Hmm, you're right. I'd be interested in seeing how they pull that off reliably.
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Jul 18, 2014 22:38
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emocrat posted:Thanks for all the responses, it is very helpful. My problem has always been when I add up the number of bulbs I have the numbers get....daunting. But I am thinking I will start replacing the ones in most frequent use at least. I paced it out over a year, one room at a time. I did the basement first, because it needed new bulbs period, then did bedrooms, dining room/bathroom/hallway/utility when Crees were on sale, and finally did the kitchen. From the areas I've seen or lived in they're instant rebates. The Feit R20s I bought at Costco were labeled "Manufacturer's Price: $14.99 / Pepco Instant Rebate: $6.00 / Your Price: $8.99". I think Home Depot just advertises a final price. Zhentar posted:Fair enough. And unfortunately there's no labeling on either the bulbs or the dimmers that's remotely useful for determining this. Also, I'd warn that a good, "LED compatible" PWM dimmer is very likely going to need a neutral to the switch box, which you may not have. Bulb manufacturers' websites list compatibility with dimmers, which may include non-CFL/LED dimmers. An incompatible, old dimmer can cause buzzing, not work at all, or decrease the life of the bulb. The two Lutron dimmers I've purchased did not require neutral, just line and load, and can used without ground. The ungrounded dimmer in my basement is fine. If you're potentially spending $100+ for bulbs that should last a long time it's pretty shortsighted to try and save $30 by not using the correct dimmer. If you've read otherwise please quote sources. WeaselWeaz fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 22:55
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WeaselWeaz posted:Bulb manufacturers' websites list compatibility with dimmers, which may include non-CFL/LED dimmers. I've never had good luck with compatibility lists including the models I'm interested in.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:19
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Zhentar posted:Hmm, you're right. I'd be interested in seeing how they pull that off reliably. I bought one, it buzzed and transmitted noise through my tv. Replaced it with a pass & Seymour, no more noise.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:52
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FWIW, we have eve-mounted recessed can floodlights that take a typical 50W PAR20 halogen around the back porch. On an early 00s Lutron dimmer. The dimmer has several dead spots (actually, most spots are dead - it's caught some ugly power issues while powered on multiple times per year, at the moment it's more of a "5% or 100% brightness" dimmer). The porch is a U-shape. 6 in total, plus a single wall lamp. I've swapped the halogens for whatever LEDs are on sale at the time as they burn out; I'm down to 2 incandescents (1 still works, in the wall lamp, and will likely remain incandescent since it's a wall-mounted clear fixture with a clear glass cover). One eve lamp died about a month ago, I just haven't gotten off my rear end to go get another LED bulb. The majority are store brand from Home Depot, though the newer ones claim to be Cree. I'm not sure if it's the one working incandescent that's keeping things in line, but all of the LEDs are rated as dimmer compatible. Also, the 40W "replacements" are very good replacements for 50W halogens. The beam isn't nearly as sharp, but in this application, since we were already using PAR bulbs (and LEDs are very directional), it seems to be just as bright.. and works very well. I'd say they put out about the same amount of light as the old 50W halogens, and probably about the same light as your typical 60W bulb in the same fixture. Note I said these are in cans though, without reflectors (just plastic trim) - so all of the light is projected downward by the LEDs. The kitchen has 6 PAR40 can lights - 4 are dimmable LED, 2 are GE CFL (the LEDs are $40/ea, so they go in when I can afford it). The GE CFLs are supposed to be dimmable, but they go from about 90% to flickering in a hurry. Pretty sure this is an issue with the ~12 year old rotary dimmer though. When we kept a regular bulb in the circuit, they'd dim a lot easier, but it's still a dimmer that's not meant for CFL or LED use. I'd like to swap the living room bulbs out for LEDs soon - they're the same 6" cans, but way, way higher, and on an 80s style dimmer. Right now we have about 600 watts of lighting in there (all incandescent). They don't get nearly as much use as the kitchen lights, but they get used for probably 6-12 hours a week now. And gently caress if I want to climb 18 feet in the air to change a bulb ever again...  In 14 years, we've replaced 2 of the 4 bulbs. I just hate heights, and even more hate dealing with lights that high up. I'm much more prone to use cheaper LEDs there, since we use them twice a week at most. The ones in the kitchen are Commercial Electric (Home Depot store brand, I think), and frankly, were a pain in the rear end to get to stay in the cans. I eventually wound up using silicone caulk to get them to stop falling out - if I didn't have so much invested in them, I'd switch to a different bulb; I just don't want to toss $200 worth of bulbs when I only need $80 to complete the swap.tl;dr: I'll keep using the same lovely design Commercial Electric model in the kitchen; the living room will get better (and cheaper) bulbs. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Jul 20, 2014 |
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Jul 20, 2014 17:54
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Buy a proper, not broken, LED compatible dimmer. They're labeled as CFL/LED dimmers. I think the dimmer work better and buzz less if they're all LEDs. You keep talking about replacing the bulbs and forgetting/ignoring that your dimmers are broken and/or incompatible. Also, dimmers do have maximum allowed wattages. For LED/CFL compatible it's usually like 150w LED/CFL or 600w incandescent, and formulas in the instructions that dictate how to mix bulb types.
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Jul 20, 2014 18:22
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 3 wires 2 switches. Idk wtf is going on with the switch on the left, it almost looks like they tried to bypass it? One of the switches controls a ceiling light, the other a floor outlet. I think. Neither have work since we moved in, which is leading me to that conclusion. I unscrewed the live and neutral wire nuts and couldn't get my circuit tester to light up (even testing the wires going to the switch on the right. Also, there's 2 switches that control one set of lights in the kitchen, but both switches have to be on. I just need two three way switches to fix that, right?
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Jul 20, 2014 22:26
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some texas redneck posted:I'm not sure if it's the one working incandescent that's keeping things in line, but all of the LEDs are rated as dimmer compatible. It's very likely that the one incandescent is doing exactly that (providing enough load for some sort of meaningful dimmer curve). But if you have dead spots it needs to be replaced anyway. I wouldn't want that thing in my wall.
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Jul 20, 2014 23:01
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crocodile posted:yeah that link is badass. will come in super handy at home, i just haven't gotten my physical copy yet :-) I pre-ordered the '14 code book. When are the paper copies supposed to be showing up? I've been away from civilization and internet since January, and haven't made it all the way through my email to figure out if the NFPA has mailed them out yet.
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Jul 21, 2014 03:00
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:I pre-ordered the '14 code book. When are the paper copies supposed to be showing up? I've been away from civilization and internet since January, and haven't made it all the way through my email to figure out if the NFPA has mailed them out yet. Would you like it right now for free? https://archive.org/details/nfpa.nec.2014
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Jul 21, 2014 03:13
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PuTTY riot posted:
One of those 3 should be the supplying hot. I would test between each of the 3 hots and the ground bundle. One should light up. If so, make 2 pigtails off that hot and wire up your switches. Assuming that you actually have /3 wiring in between those switches, then yes, all you would need is a pair of 3 way switches. Keep in mind that there are a handful of methods to wire 3 ways, few of which are legal anymore with the "a neutral for every switch" requirement. The good news is that the more... complicated 3 way wiring methods are the rarest and also the ones that ended up becoming illegal with the code change. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 20:49
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Turns out the outlet below (not pictured) was at one point supplying the electricity to that box. It was disconnected, I guess to hook up another outlet possibly when they added some speaker wire and stuff?? Just left the wires in the back of the box, no nuts, tape or anything. Anyway, I need one of those multi wire latch things mentioned ITT (a fancy wire nut I guess?) and some pigtail wires. I guess just get a couple feet of 12g romex at HD for that?
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Jul 22, 2014 03:05
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Hello, A few years ago someone plugged in a vacuum cleaner to one of my outlets and tripped the breaker. Ever since then, two sets of outlets, a light switch, and a motion sensor switch have completely not worked. I have track lighting over my dining area and that has been on the fritz as well. For awhile it worked, but then when I flipped the light switch, I'd hear crackling and then the lights would shut off and it was out for a week or month. Tonight I tried looking at it with mixed results. I know next to nothing about electricity other then it will kill me. Here's the situation: The breaker seems to supply three different circuits: One that has bathroom light and two outlets. (which are fine) Another that has a light and an outlet. (which are fine) The third has my kitchen light, two outlets, a porch light, and a motion-sensor light that I can't figure out how to turn off. If I have the wires disconnected like this, I use my multimeter and measure a good 120 volts. If I try to measure the downstream outlet, I get nothing.  If I touch the wires together, it gets a shock, does some melting, and trips the breaker. (Regardless of light switch on or off) If I use a cappy-thing to twist the wires together, when I activate the breaker, it just re-trips. I can somehow use this wierd light bulb thing and it works. But it works regardless of if the light switch is on or off. I don't understand this.  And as a side note, all the wiring is behind walls, in ceiling insulation and generally crappy to get to. I was able to get in my insulation and see a thick flexible wire going from my basement into the fixture and then another one going from the fixture out to the porch -> never never land. Now, my father-in-law has spent probably 20+ hours monkey-ing with the fixture and the switch, so that might explain why the switch seems to do nothing. But all this behavior just doesn't seem to make sense. Like why doesn't (does not) that light make the crackle and trip the breaker when touching the wires does? Why does the cappy thing and touching the wires trip the breaker even at all? It seems like it would be just closing the circuit. Gimpalimpa fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Jul 22, 2014 |
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Jul 22, 2014 04:10
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Gimpalimpa posted:If I touch the wires together, it gets a shock, does some melting, and trips the breaker. (Regardless of light switch on or off) I'm gonna strongly suggest that you quit loving around, because these are pretty dumb activities and you don't seem to have enough of a clue to be able to mess with things safely going just by what you get from the internet. The breaker trips when you short-circuit the wires because that's exactly what the breaker is supposed to do. The light bulb is always on because the current is always on. That said - it's obvious that the switch doesn't control the wires at the fixture. Either the switch is hosed or you're confused about how it's wired up. Or both. Also what is with the black wire connected to the white wire in the box? That's a little unusual...
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Jul 22, 2014 04:41
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Gimpalimpa posted:
 This is how house fires start. Hire an electrician and step away.
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Jul 22, 2014 05:16
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Ahhh, butts. I suppose I should just be thankful that I'm not dead and hire the electrician. My guess is that it's one set of wires going in, one set going somewhere else to make the circuit loop bigger than just the fixture.
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Jul 22, 2014 05:42
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Another pergola wiring question. I'll be running wire across the top of the pergola, which is 10 feet high. I'll be using UF-B. Does it need to be in conduit?
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Jul 22, 2014 13:08
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emanonii posted:Another pergola wiring question. I'll be running wire across the top of the pergola, which is 10 feet high. I'll be using UF-B. Does it need to be in conduit? Will any of it be exposed below that 10 ft section? (I think I remember you saying it was going into some sort of channel from the ground an up) If so, I'd say go for it. But unless it's in the 2014 NEC I'm not aware of any provision stopping you from using unarmoroed cable or conduit in an unfinished space, which is pretty much how I'd be thinking about this pergola. However, in case I didn't mention it before: NEC 300.5(D)(1) Conductors emerging from underground shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, or Schedule 80 rigid nonmetallic conduit from 18” below grade or the minimum cover distance to the point of termination above ground. The bottom of the pipe shall be protected by a bushing or other effective means. This could trip you up if the AHJ wants to be a stickler, but could be worked around with a small and discreet single gang waterproof service disconnect at the bottom of the pergola to receive the UF-B. Then continue it on in your channel from there (still using UF-B).
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Jul 22, 2014 15:32
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Motronic posted:Will any of it be exposed below that 10 ft section? (I think I remember you saying it was going into some sort of channel from the ground an up) No, nothing will be exposed below 10'. The wire will actually be coming out of the house where one of the pergola rafters will attach to the wall. I'll have a weatherproof electrical box at that point. The UF-B will then go above the rafter and then run along the top of the rafter to the post, and then down the post within the channel. Thanks very much for the info.
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Jul 22, 2014 17:25
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emanonii posted:No, nothing will be exposed below 10'. The wire will actually be coming out of the house where one of the pergola rafters will attach to the wall. I'll have a weatherproof electrical box at that point. The UF-B will then go above the rafter and then run along the top of the rafter to the post, and then down the post within the channel. That sounds totally fine. I can't imagine an inspector having an issue with that setup.
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Jul 22, 2014 17:50
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slap me silly posted:Also what is with the black wire connected to the white wire in the box? That's a little unusual... All my switched fixtures are wired like that, I think it was SOP in the 50s? Neutral and hot to the box, then a leg to the switch using white tied to hot, and then the return from the switch using the black wire, so your fixture attaches to white and wlack which are properly colored as neutral and hot. The ceiling boxes are also used as distribution points for the wall outlets, so there's a bundle of white and black tied up, each a leg to one wall outlet. It sounds plausible Gimpalimpa had something similar at one point, but somebody undid that in a unique way.
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Jul 22, 2014 23:33
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PuTTY riot posted:Turns out the outlet below (not pictured) was at one point supplying the electricity to that box. It was disconnected, I guess to hook up another outlet possibly when they added some speaker wire and stuff?? Just left the wires in the back of the box, no nuts, tape or anything. Anyway, I need one of those multi wire latch things mentioned ITT (a fancy wire nut I guess?) and some pigtail wires. I guess just get a couple feet of 12g romex at HD for that? For "multi wire latch thing", I take it you mean a splice kit? You only need one of those if for some reason you need to do a splice in wall without an accessible junction box. If you're connecting it in an outlet box, you just use wire nuts. For pigtail wires, your best choice would be to get a couple feet of solid core THHN (in both white and black), along with a couple feet of bare copper. Stripping the sheath from romex for pig tails is a bit of a pain in the rear end, and you risk damaging the insulation for the conductors in the process.
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Jul 23, 2014 00:01
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No I mean this thing, apparently called a latch nut. I just figured it'd be easier than loving around with a wire nut and 4 wires. and yeah, I went with THHN. Spent my free time this morning playing with my alarm panel so it'll probably be this weekend before I get to it.
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Jul 23, 2014 00:38
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PuTTY riot posted:No I mean this thing, apparently called a latch nut. Reverse Google image search and a little detective work says their called "lever nuts" and are made by Wago. I looked it up because I've never seen a wire nut like that before. At first glimpse, they look like they would be better than push on connectors since they're easily removable/reusable. Also, with a gap you could hold open with a lever like that, they would work a hell of a lot better with stranded wire than push ons. That being said, they still rely on a spring to hold the wires in, meaning a lot of inspectors wouldn't like them. They're also WAY bigger than wire nuts or push ons, making for cramped boxes.
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Jul 23, 2014 01:29
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I have a handful of those Wago latch nuts on my desk from a sales guy that dropped by the other day. I can't argue the fact that it is spring pressure holding the conductor but it is one stout little spring. I usually shy away from things like these but I have a few places where I think I'm going to give them a try.
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Jul 23, 2014 10:17
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I'd like to do a wiring diagram for my (rental) house. It's an old (pre 50's) single-story home with a full, unfinished basement. Do you guys have any recommendations for software for mac I can do this in, or should I just draft it by hand?
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Jul 25, 2014 22:35
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