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evilweasel posted:Driving the long way is a scam that is entirely independent of if there's a meter or not. That's the point. However the long way is not GPS error, there's a starting point and an ending point and there's a mapping algorithm for getting from point A to B. If GPS is involved it's telling you how to get there, and the only variation would be variations based on traffic. GPS is involved when you're trying to tell if you were lied to about how long it was from point A to B. The point is that "Point B" is accurate to within X feet so they'll charge you the distance of that X feet that makes them the most money.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:38
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Paul MaudDib posted:I don't know why "surge pricing" is problematic, honestly. It's a pretty standard practice in lots of industries to charge extra for scarce resources at peak usage times. If you use electricity around 5:30 PM you'll pay more, if you charge your car overnight you'll pay less in lots of places. Most of the anger over it is when the surge is from an emergency or the like. Nobody is going to get up in arms at charging an arm and a leg on New Year's Eve if you want a cab, but it gets sketchy when you're profiteering off people being snowbound. There's a fine line between when snow is an inconvenience you're trying to avoid along with everyone else and surge pricing is fine and when it's a genuine problem for people that you're taking advantage of. But you're right that it's not inherently problematic when it's just high demand.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:39
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computer parts posted:The point is that "Point B" is accurate to within X feet so they'll charge you the distance of that X feet that makes them the most money.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:40
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cheese posted:Getting a little pedantic arnt we? So a huge issue is that Uber drivers will take you past your door to the street address of your apartment compelx, and get 30 extra cents from you? We have bigger fish to fry. Apparently people ITT use Taxis for literally every part of their transportation needs so yeah that would add up.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:41
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evilweasel posted:Most of the anger over it is when the surge is from an emergency or the like. Nobody is going to get up in arms at charging an arm and a leg on New Year's Eve if you want a cab, but it gets sketchy when you're profiteering off people being snowbound. There's a fine line between when snow is an inconvenience you're trying to avoid along with everyone else and surge pricing is fine and when it's a genuine problem for people that you're taking advantage of. But you're right that it's not inherently problematic when it's just high demand. Don't most taxicabs charge extra when "people are snowbound"? Like here's DC's taxi fees: quote:Extras: Nobody wants to drive when it's poo poo out, taxi drivers included. And yeah, the point other people were making about the circumstances that trigger "surge pricing" being opaque is semi-legitimate in the sense that it would be nice if they published some guidelines, like "dispatch volume >35% above normal" or whatever. On the other hand it's not like a utility where you only have one choice either, you can always call another taxi company if you think one charges too much.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:47
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computer parts posted:The point is that "Point B" is accurate to within X feet so they'll charge you the distance of that X feet that makes them the most money. Again, the device is inaccurate to plus or minus X feet. That's still true regardless of this hypothetical gouging scenario. So, if the device is accurate to within 10 feet, and Uber always adjusts so that they add the 10 feet, that's detectable because analysis of multiple routes against the true endpoint would show that the end point is always between dead on and +20 feet. The device would never show an error in the short direction, indicating deception.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:49
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Popular Thug Drink posted:My only problem with Uber is that the single thing they're doing of note is using a slick app to do a simple task. Nothing else about them is innovative - contract labor, dodging regulations, rent collecting, leaving employees out to dry, etc. are all standard features of the 'new' neoliberal corporate economy. Someone else could come along and cook up an app that completely undercuts Uber and then that's it. And yet it's worth $18 billion. cheese posted:Especially when that "innovation" is literally "You can summon our car service with a smart phone ap instead of a phone call". And this is like half the reason why goons hate tech companies and it's stupid as hell. People are using it, so clearly it's filling a need. This feels like jealousy "omg someone invented a silly app that like doesn't even do anything an now he's rich"
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Jul 24, 2014 20:50
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^ Its more that Uber isn't so special that they should get to avoid the rules that everyone else in that marketplace has to follow. Paul MaudDib posted:Don't most taxicabs charge extra when "people are snowbound"? Like here's DC's taxi fees: Remember Uber doesn't actually tell you the surge price only the multiplier. So you know the ride will be 8x usual, but unless you know what "usual" is, you might be surprised the fee.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:51
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computer parts posted:Apparently people ITT use Taxis for literally every part of their transportation needs so yeah that would add up.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:51
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thefncrow posted:Again, the device is inaccurate to plus or minus X feet. That's still true regardless of this hypothetical gouging scenario. So, if the device is accurate to within 10 feet, and Uber always adjusts so that they add the 10 feet, that's detectable because analysis of multiple routes against the true endpoint would show that the end point is always between dead on and +20 feet. The device would never show an error in the short direction, indicating deception. Or they just add distance so the total = +10 feet. Ex: "If dead on, add 10 feet; if 5 feet ahead, add 5 feet. If 5 feet behind, add 15 feet, etc". cheese posted:I can't imagine using taxi as my daily transportation without also making crazy money. It is an expensive way to get around and not because the driver is going to bilk you for an extra 30 cents on some rides. I can't imagine using taxis often enough that I want a "ridesharing" alternative even if taxis actually are crappy.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:51
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Trabisnikof posted:Remember Uber doesn't actually tell you the surge price only the multiplier. So you know the ride will be 8x usual, but unless you know what "usual" is, you might be surprised the fee. You can give a destination and estimate cost. It's just not a standard feature because you don't have to input destination.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:52
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Xandu posted:And this is like half the reason why goons hate tech companies and it's stupid as hell. People are using it, so clearly it's filling a need. This feels like jealousy "omg someone invented a silly app that like doesn't even do anything an now he's rich"
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Jul 24, 2014 20:54
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Xandu posted:You can give a destination and estimate cost. It's just not a standard feature because you don't have to input destination. additionally they do tell you the minimum charge
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Jul 24, 2014 20:54
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Riptor posted:additionally they do tell you the minimum charge The minimum isn't what most people get upset about.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:55
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thefncrow posted:Again, the device is inaccurate to plus or minus X feet. That's still true regardless of this hypothetical gouging scenario. So, if the device is accurate to within 10 feet, and Uber always adjusts so that they add the 10 feet, that's detectable because analysis of multiple routes against the true endpoint would show that the end point is always between dead on and +20 feet. The device would never show an error in the short direction, indicating deception. Assuming you always get picked up and dropped off at precisely the same spot and the receipt includes distances billed down to the foot, sure. I haven't used Uber but I'd assume your receipt is written to 0.01 mile at finest, which is 52.8 feet. More decimals can still exist inside the computer. It's a salami-slicing/penny-shaving scheme and it's not the end of the world on an individual basis, which makes it hard to get people to care. But we do have regulated taximeters, regulated gas pumps, regulated scales at the store, etc to be sure this kind of stuff doesn't happen. The solution to taxicabs taking you for a ride is to put GPS in the cabs too so that doesn't happen, not to get rid of taximeter certification. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 20:55
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Trabisnikof posted:Remember Uber doesn't actually tell you the surge price only the multiplier. So you know the ride will be 8x usual, but unless you know what "usual" is, you might be surprised the fee. Yeah, you're super wrong, buddy. An Uber to the beach was like $80 on the 4th of July, so I just took the bus.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:55
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cheese posted:I hate them because they act as thought they have done something more than that by creating a utopian sharing economy where all our needs are met by the cloud. This is the most popular way to sell 'disruptive' services that amount to further erosion of the job market for the benefit of corporate power.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:56
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Slobjob Zizek posted:Yeah, you're super wrong, buddy. An Uber to the beach was like $80 on the 4th of July, so I just took the bus. Sorry I was wrong, that's what their website makes it seem: https://support.uber.com/hc/en-us/articles/201836656-What-is-surge-pricing-and-how-does-it-work-
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Jul 24, 2014 20:57
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Popular Thug Drink posted:This is the most popular way to sell 'disruptive' services that amount to further erosion of the job market for the benefit of corporate power. One more step toward everyone being a 12 dollar an hour service contractor whose employment is never secure.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:58
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Gail Wynand posted:Right and I think in that case Uber would say they're a platform, not a carrier, and the burden of licensing is on their drivers. Which is outright wrong, and if it were a valid defense every single transportation service in Virginia would be using that loophole, guarenteed. Sure shows the Uber mentality of "obviously noone else thought about anything before us"! It's basically sovereign citizen logic. Gail Wynand posted:Those organizations have a vested interest in interpreting the laws in a way that maximizes their power. Anyone sane believes that safety regulators should have maximal power. Cicero posted:
It's used by less than a tenth of a percent of the car service customers in this country. Popular Thug Drink posted:Are people still invoking ~my black friend~ to defend 21st century e-jitneys? The funny thing is the part of Uber's service that operates exactly like existing jitney/black car services tends to never have trouble operating because it stays within the bounds of the law. But clearly the ubernerds say, we must destroy all the regulations that block off the other stuff uber does unsafely because ~disruption~ is our new god. lamentable dustman posted:Uber just came to my city of Charleston, SC this week or last. The local government said they need to follow existing taxi law. Uber's response was just to ignore the laws and say it'll just pay any fines it gets. Stuff like this is why they're desperately seeking new capital all the time. disheveled posted:
This doesn't occur with Uber though. Every place they show up tells them the regulations they must meet and then they're free to operate just like the random guy who owns 3 cars and does phone dispatched service in Bumfuckville. Then they just go "durrr we don't want to follow these" for as long as they can. esquilax posted:"Uber must cease and desist operating in Virginia until it obtains proper authority" So are you one of those people who refuses to get a driver's license or put plates on their car? It's literally the same thing -those are things you need to have proper authority to operate a vehicle in general and a particular vehicle respectively. Trabisnikof posted:Uber has a valuation of $17 Billion dollars. As this excellent post that someone linked lays out (http://quora.com/Uber-1/How-big-of-a-deal-is-Uber/answer/Justin-Singer) the "big taxi" companies all control small segments of the market. Uber has the resources. Sure, maybe they'll be some cities where the mob runs the taxis and the city council or some poo poo. Or California where the regulators make rules, and everyone hates them but that's California and that's the law. But in the vast majority of the country Uber has everything they need to shift regulations in their favor. Everyone hates taxis. Uber has a valuation of $17 billion just like this company is worth 5 billion: https://www.komando.com/happening-now/261711/this-defunct-company-has-no-profits-and-one-employee-why-is-it-worth-5-billion/all And you should actually read that article you linked! It explains why Uber is utterly incapable of meeting the supposed valuation, and why they can never control the market. Shifty Pony posted:Phone gps hardware is too inaccurate, especially in city environments, to be relied upon as a basis for commercial billing. It is "good enough" to roughly get your location but anyone who has compared phone gps tracked distance with a different measurement system will tell you that's about the only guarantee. This is 100% correct. Anyone can prove this for themselves by just recording a GPS track with common phone apps. MaxxBot posted:Why are there so many houses with leaky roofs though? There's a widespread sentiment that taxi companies provide a poor service and that Uber provides a better one. I'll take Uber's leaky roof because it's leaking into a closet whereas with the ordinary taxi it's leaking right on my head. I'd take the house without a leaky roof but there doesn't seem to be one around A sentiment being widespread doesn't make it true. It's also hilarious how so many people refuse to google any other car service in their city and assume the only thing that exists is local street taxis and Uber. Popular Thug Drink posted:My only problem with Uber is that the single thing they're doing of note is using a slick app to do a simple task. Nothing else about them is innovative - contract labor, dodging regulations, rent collecting, leaving employees out to dry, etc. are all standard features of the 'new' neoliberal corporate economy. Someone else could come along and cook up an app that completely undercuts Uber and then that's it. And yet it's worth $18 billion. That's the thing about them, and why they will never really be worth 18 billion. The basic infrastructure has already been cloned several times over by all the various startups doing similar things; and they have absolutely no way to prevent drivers for them from moving to another service. Many Uber drivers already carry hailing stuff for Lyft and any of the other services. Xandu posted:And this is like half the reason why goons hate tech companies and it's stupid as hell. People are using it, so clearly it's filling a need. This feels like jealousy "omg someone invented a silly app that like doesn't even do anything an now he's rich" Except they're doing while also trying to tear down all the regulations around it because hey you don't need to have a safe trip in any form, right? Like that's the point, that's why people are mad. It's why the "durr disruption good" mentality is so lovely. You'll notice very few people are angry at Hailo, a similar startup, who instead works thoroughly within regulations. They've also been the only ones fighting an actual bad regulation attempt, which was to attempt to remove electronic hailing entirely from certain cities.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:58
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It's just marketing, yes it's dumb and needlessly self-important, like most marketing, but it's totally irrelevant to my use of the product. Edit: so complain about regulations, don't make posts about how the app is stupid, like the people I quoted.
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Jul 24, 2014 20:58
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Xandu posted:Edit: so complain about regulations, don't make posts about how the app is stupid, like the people I quoted. The app is stupid though on it's own, it has many structural problems across multiple platforms and lots of features are counter-intuitive. Like straight up, the Lyft app for phones works a lot better than the Uber app, for example.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:01
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Xandu posted:It's just marketing, yes it's dumb and needlessly self-important, like most marketing, but it's totally irrelevant to my use of the product. I genuinely believe Uber will be the first of the "sharing economy" companies (read: no actual physical capital) to completely fall apart spectacularly, and that they may trigger the eventual tech bubble popping. You could argue that even the 3 billion for snapchat makes sense to facebook because it is a possible social network competitor that is used almost exclusively by my teenage high school students.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:03
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computer parts posted:Or they just add distance so the total = +10 feet. 1) Uber doesn't know the actual inaccuracy of the reading. That's impossible. So any algorithm that requires that knowledge is unworkable. 2) if you assume Uber can know that, that makes detecting deception easier, not harder. At least in my scenario the device outputs different figures in the range of common error half the time. If a device is accurate to +/- 10 feet but only ever has an error of +10, that's hard evidence of deception.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:06
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cheese posted:I didn't say the ap was stupid (although Lyft's is way better), I said that they are not providing anything creative beyond an ap. This is probably true. But just like everyone grabbed all the free stuff thrown at them by tech companies in 1999, I'll get all the $8 Benz rides to the bar I can before this falls apart.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:06
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Slobjob Zizek posted:This is probably true. But just like everyone grabbed all the free stuff thrown at them by tech companies in 1999, I'll get all the $8 Benz rides to the bar I can before this falls apart.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:08
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thefncrow posted:2) if you assume Uber can know that, that makes detecting deception easier, not harder. At least in my scenario the device outputs different figures in the range of common error half the time. If a device is accurate to +/- 10 feet but only ever has an error of +10, that's hard evidence of deception. Does Uber tell you the margin of error? If not then it's a moot point.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:09
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cheese posted:My friend claims to have gotten a Lyft ride in a Tesla by some dude who just wanted to make a few bucks while cruising around The City in his new Tesla on a Saturday. Hahaha, that is awesome. Beats a smelly, yellow Crown Vic any day.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:10
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computer parts posted:The point is that "Point B" is accurate to within X feet so they'll charge you the distance of that X feet that makes them the most money. The point is that if Uber is only managing to add a hundred feet (and even that is pushing it) to every cab ride I take that is lowering the potential scam level so much that's a selling point not a problem.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:12
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I drive a taxi for a living in Alaska. I have no fear of Uber/Lyft taking any share of the industry and honestly I'd pay good money to see the average Uber driver handle some of our customersA story from sometime in 2012 posted:This one didn't happen to me but my coworker: he took these two brothers home from the bar one night in the minivan cab we have. They were drunk as hell and arguing over who was going to pay, but not the way you think. They both insisted on paying. One was still in the cab with his hand on the sliding door frame. His brother was like gently caress IT FINE, YOU PAY and slammed the door shut, cutting the other guys thumb off, except for some skin. from this spring posted:I get a call around 12 - 12:30 that night from someone I know at the bar. Him, his wife and their friends from out of town are going home. They're good friends and good people. I pull up at the bar and some other group of out of town douchebags from Anchorage / MAT-SU try to jump in. I tell them Looking at some of the rate structures in big cities I sure am glad we have a simple system: -$5 minimum -$2.50/mi -$1/min wait time -$2/mi over 20 mi Our cars don't even have meters in them right now, everything is simply done off the odometer. I've been using an android App called Taximeter for the past few months though - so soon we're going to have it in every car. http://www.yelp.com/biz/kachecab-homer
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Jul 24, 2014 21:22
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MaxxBot posted:You're right it is a pretty simple and small thing, which is why it's baffling that normal taxi companies haven't started offering the same thing en masse. It's also not just summoning the taxi, when you order an Uber it gives you a somewhat reliable ETA and shows you where the car is physically, with the taxis here the ETA they give you is wildly inaccurate and there's no way to track the cab's progress towards your location. I don't understand why more taxis don't use a service like http://www.mytaxi.com Lets me order a cab online, follow it to my location, gives me an ETA and I can pay from the app all while using a licensed taxi with proper insurance, etc.
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Jul 24, 2014 22:17
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Gold and a Pager posted:I don't understand why more taxis don't use a service like http://www.mytaxi.com Street hailing taxis aren't going to use those in general, because they get to pick up people on the streets. But car services usually do have an app or at least a mobile web site to use. It seems like some people really don't understand that just because there's some wildly different services named under "taxi", they don't all work the same.
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Jul 24, 2014 22:21
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Nintendo Kid posted:Street hailing taxis aren't going to use those in general, because they get to pick up people on the streets. But car services usually do have an app or at least a mobile web site to use. It's not that people don't understand; a lot of people specifically want something on the level of a street-hailing taxi. I didn't use Uber at all until UberX became a thing, I don't want or need a Lincoln Town Car or black Escalade to show up. Gold and a Pager really nailed it with the typical consumer viewpoint. The people using and defending UberX just want a "no bullshit" experience at the same price point as taxis. Honestly, I'd pay a higher fare if taxis adopted an Uber-like hailing, fare calculating, and rating system.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:42
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disheveled posted:Gold and a Pager really nailed it with the typical consumer viewpoint. The people using and defending UberX just want a "no bullshit" experience at the same price point as taxis. Honestly, I'd pay a higher fare if taxis adopted an Uber-like hailing, fare calculating, and rating system. BTW I now live in a city with both a functional taxi system and Uber and I have yet to use Uber.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:58
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disheveled posted:It's not that people don't understand; a lot of people specifically want something on the level of a street-hailing taxi. I didn't use Uber at all until UberX became a thing, I don't want or need a Lincoln Town Car or black Escalade to show up. If you want a street hailing taxi, Uber and friends will never provide that. It's decidedly not in their business model. And street-hailed taxis, ideally, should spend a minimal amount of time, especially in peak usage, picking up remote-dispatched trips rather than driving by and picking people up off the street. Car services already have an uber-like hailing, fare, and rating system. Companies like Hailo even provide that service to multiple car services in a given locale.
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Jul 25, 2014 05:04
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Xandu posted:It's just marketing, yes it's dumb and needlessly self-important, like most marketing, but it's totally irrelevant to my use of the product. They actually didn't say the app was stupid, rather that these services are not revolutionary, innovative, or disruptive or whatever web 2.0 term you'd like to use. The idea that "ohhhh it's an APP though" is exactly why this whole thing is going to come crashing down just as hard as the early 2000 web companies- it's literally the same nonsense. ourbeginning.com netpliance.com onmoney.com lifeminder.com epidemic.com computer.com A short list of companies that paid over 2.5 million (2014 dollars) to have less than a minute of commercial time in the early 2000s.
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Jul 25, 2014 08:34
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tsa posted:They actually didn't say the app was stupid, rather that these services are not revolutionary, innovative, or disruptive or whatever web 2.0 term you'd like to use. The idea that "ohhhh it's an APP though" is exactly why this whole thing is going to come crashing down just as hard as the early 2000 web companies- it's literally the same nonsense. You don't actually seem to understand what innovation is. Innovations, including things we rightfully credit as being revolutionary, usually fall into the category of "makes existing thing better". If uber provides a more reliable process for getting a car to show up at your location and drive you somewhere that's innovative.
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Jul 25, 2014 13:13
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asdf32 posted:You don't actually seem to understand what innovation is. Innovations, including things we rightfully credit as being revolutionary, usually fall into the category of "makes existing thing better". Running a criminal enterprise is disruptive and innovative.
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Jul 25, 2014 14:06
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asdf32 posted:If uber provides a more reliable process for getting a car to show up at your location and drive you somewhere that's innovative. Actually showing up on time isn't really an innovation though. There are plenty of cab companies which say over a normal telephone "We will be there in 20 minutes" and they show up in about 20 minutes. That's what Uber does, but with an app. Apps aren't intrinsically innovative even if they do have that perception among consumers. e: I refuse to get a smartphone so I don't see it as 'better' when you're able to track your pizza delivery on a map to diffuse the awkward tension of having to wait for a person to show up. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 15:11
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Actually showing up on time isn't really an innovation though. There are plenty of cab companies which say over a normal telephone "We will be there in 20 minutes" and they show up in about 20 minutes. That's what Uber does, but with an app. Apps aren't intrinsically innovative even if they do have that perception among consumers. All the other pluses of Uber aside, the credit card splitting feature they have would be worth the price of entry alone quote:e: I refuse to get a smartphone so I don't see being able to track your pizza delivery on a map to diffuse the awkward tension of having to wait for a person to show up as being 'better' though. I don't even own a television 
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Jul 25, 2014 15:19
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