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Alien Rope Burn posted:Does the new D&D Monster Manual, like the Pathfinder Bestiary, also include creatures that can only reproduce through rape? EDIT: That isn't discounting potential that they may be embracing some of the more racist elements of D&D in a paradoxical attempt at inclusion. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 22:01
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Lemon Curdistan posted:tl;dr, without dragging this into another derail: Mearls in fact informed people that said lovely dude said that the complaints were by people who harassed HIM so obviously they weren't true.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:03
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Tendales posted:Paizo has come a LONG way since Runelords. gently caress Runelords. This is true. The problem is that a some of the problematic material is right there in the core game and bestiary, and those aren't going anywhere. Hopefully that'll change someday, but until it does, it's going to keep being a problem for me, at least.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:10
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Alien Rope Burn posted:This is true. The problem is that a some of the problematic material is right there in the core game and bestiary, and those aren't going anywhere. Hopefully that'll change someday, but until it does, it's going to keep being a problem for me, at least. It could happen. Most of the people that insisted on never correcting anything ever, the text must stand as written, prone shooter is a totally valid feat for flavor, those folks have pretty much all moved on now.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:12
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Yeah, I mean, I don't support their prior missteps, not by a long shot, but they seem to be making a valid and genuine attempt to change going forward, and I have a strong expectation that we're going to see a lot less of that sort of thing in subsequent products and revisions. That being said, I totally understand having an issue with it until it's gone.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:19
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Paizo is having the same crawl upwards that Privateer Press did, essentially.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:22
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dwarf74 posted:Pathfinder is an awful game and I wish it would go away or improve rather than pollute the expectations of new gamers. Unfortunately, Paizo's acceptance of LGBT issues is marred by their awkward insistence to fetishize lesbians in many of their products.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:40
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Alien Rope Burn posted:This is true. The problem is that a some of the problematic material is right there in the core game and bestiary, and those aren't going anywhere. Hopefully that'll change someday, but until it does, it's going to keep being a problem for me, at least. I can dig that, but I think the point for many is they are seeing demonstrable improvement. Does this mean they are going to pulp their core book in favor of a reprinting without those elements? No, of course not. Does it mean they are doing better now than they were from the letter you quoted from two years ago? Sure. Is Wrath a clear improvement over Runelords? Sure. Progress is made. I don't think anyone is saying they are without flaw, but as far as major companies go (particularly given the weirdness around 5e recently) they are certainly showing signs. If it would take PF 2nd Ed (or probably at this point, PF Core Revised is more likely) without the elements you object to included to be printed, that is fine, but flat out denying that anything is happening seems a little much.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:45
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Wilde Jagd posted:Unfortunately, Paizo's acceptance of LGBT issues is marred by their awkward insistence to fetishize lesbians in many of their products. This is a new one on me, where do they do that?
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Jul 25, 2014 22:51
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Paizo is having the same crawl upwards that Privateer Press did, essentially. On the other hand, Privateer Press has apparently hired Larry Correia for their game fiction line, who's a "There's no such thing as rape culture" charmer and best buds with Vox Day. You know, the guy who was kicked out of the SFWA for calling a black author a "Half Savage". So, uh...yeah. :/
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Jul 25, 2014 22:55
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Fits next to the guy who writes Menoth near exclusively because he supports Israel. Yeah just ignore their entire fiction line.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:57
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unseenlibrarian posted:On the other hand, Privateer Press has apparently hired Larry Correia for their game fiction line, who's a "There's no such thing as rape culture" charmer and best buds with Vox Day. You know, the guy who was kicked out of the SFWA for calling a black author a "Half Savage". IDK if I can write a company off because one of the guys they hire is friends with a jerk. Like if they hired Vox Day, sure.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:01
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Winson_Paine posted:I can dig that, but I think the point for many is they are seeing demonstrable improvement. Does this mean they are going to pulp their core book in favor of a reprinting without those elements? No, of course not. Does it mean they are doing better now than they were from the letter you quoted from two years ago? Sure. Is Wrath a clear improvement over Runelords? Sure. Progress is made. I don't think anyone is saying they are without flaw, but as far as major companies go (particularly given the weirdness around 5e recently) they are certainly showing signs. If it would take PF 2nd Ed (or probably at this point, PF Core Revised is more likely) without the elements you object to included to be printed, that is fine, but flat out denying that anything is happening seems a little much. How is Paizo improving? Genuine question, I obviously haven't been paying enough attention to them the past few years. If they're improving, that's great, but no one's actually said how they're getting better.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:01
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Tulul posted:How is Paizo improving? Genuine question, I obviously haven't been paying enough attention to them the past few years. If they're improving, that's great, but no one's actually said how they're getting better. They have, actually. You need to go about 40+ posts back to find it tho. Short answer is more inclusiveness and inclusiveness in terms of relevant NPCs in the AP stuff and generally being cooler. Someone else can repost the links or you can just go back and look, I am super lazy anymore.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:04
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Cassa posted:So in the wake of WOTC deciding to describe sexuality and gender in their games in a way, best described as a paternalistic grandpa trying his best, but not really helping, Paizo comes out with things like this. Found one of them anyway, here.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:05
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Winson_Paine posted:IDK if I can write a company off because one of the guys they hire is friends with a jerk. Like if they hired Vox Day, sure.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:06
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Tendales posted:It could happen. Most of the people that insisted on never correcting anything ever, the text must stand as written, prone shooter is a totally valid feat for flavor, those folks have pretty much all moved on now. Well, James Jacobs, of "doubling down on orc rape" above and rape incubi and all that stuff... is still Creative Director. Granted, he does seem to listen to criticism, but whether or not he does anything about it is something I'll have to wait and see on. Also folks like Jason Bulmahn are still heading up a lot of rules stuff. Bulmahn seems like a pretty chill guy compared to the histrionics of Sean K Reynolds, but he's still a guy with a long record of questionable design. Winson_Paine posted:If it would take PF 2nd Ed (or probably at this point, PF Core Revised is more likely) without the elements you object to included to be printed, that is fine, but flat out denying that anything is happening seems a little much. I'm not denying that it's happening, but two NPCs don't make for a sea change for me yet. Pathfinder has had some inclusive elements from very early on, like with Seelah. So I'm aware of that. But it's also a game with unnatural lust, too. It has a lot of writers and a lot of myriad takes, but it'll take time and some stronger evidence to convince me things have firmly changed for the better. I'm Also, there's still Goblinworks, which is a whole ethical quagmire a lot of folks have forgotten, but is still... what it is.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:08
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Winson_Paine posted:This is a new one on me, where do they do that? One of their APs (Shattered Star?) features a dungeon crawl in a sex dungeon ruled by lesbian succubi. In Wrath of the Righteous, the very same AP with Anevia, has long descriptions about the sexual exploits of a city's lesbian succubus ruler. In one of their bestiaries, there's an illustration of a statue to two succubi kissing to emphasize how they serve as muses for artists. Pretty much every time succubi are mentioned, they are associated with lesbianism.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:08
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Winson_Paine posted:IDK if I can write a company off because one of the guys they hire is friends with a jerk. Like if they hired Vox Day, sure. No, no, Correia's also a jerk. Possibly not as big a one as Vox Day, but a jerk. Larry Correia posted:The idea that there is a “rape culture” in the USA is a myth. There are individual imbeciles, individual evil scumbags, and there are some criminal gang subcultures where rape is business as usual, but for most regular people it is an evil anomaly, and our children are taught accordingly. He also organized his fans to troll the Hugo awards by getting Vox nominated for one after he was kicked out.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:09
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Tulul posted:How is Paizo improving? Genuine question, I obviously haven't been paying enough attention to them the past few years. If they're improving, that's great, but no one's actually said how they're getting better. In addition to the legitimately rad LBTQ support already mentioned, their art design has greatly improved. Check out Wrath of the Righteous. Women are given active, dynamic illustrations instead of the classic passive cheesecake of a sorceress with her tits hanging out. Also, they actually HIRE women to write stuff for their elf game once in a while. Gosh.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:10
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FMguru posted:Correia has his own issues w/r/t women and minorities and the gays, and Vox Day is quite a bit more than just "a jerk". This is a derail but I checked with the mod and it is OK, what did Corria do? I kind of liked the GRIMNOIR books even if they were almost cartoonishly right wing in spots (making FDR a big bad was awesome) but know nothing about him as a dude. EDIT: oh
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Jul 25, 2014 23:11
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Tendales posted:In addition to the legitimately rad LBTQ support already mentioned, their art design has greatly improved. Check out Wrath of the Righteous. Women are given active, dynamic illustrations instead of the classic passive cheesecake of a sorceress with her tits hanging out. Depicted: Areelu Vorlesh, the main villain of Wrath of the Righteous (NSFW, obviously) Such a dynamic pose! Definitely not cheesecake!
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Jul 25, 2014 23:17
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Tendales posted:Also, they actually HIRE women to write stuff for their elf game once in a while. Gosh. Who were some of the last notable female writers, if any, for WotC? I can't think of any who have worked for them in a decade or more.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:28
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Wilde Jagd posted:Depicted: Areelu Vorlesh, the main villain of Wrath of the Righteous (NSFW, obviously) Well a succubus IS a magic fuckmonster. I mean if you have a magic fuckmonster (not to be confused with the ogres in Runelords, which are just regular fuckmonsters) you are gonna have problems I reckon.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:29
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:Who were some of the last notable female writers, if any, for WotC? I can't think of any who have worked for them in a decade or more. Ummmm..... Gwendolyn FM Kestrel?
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Jul 25, 2014 23:36
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Tendales posted:Gwendolyn FM "Book of Erotic Fantasy" Kestrel? I forgot about her. Which is odd, considering she's pretty notable for a number of reasons.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:44
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Shelly Mazzanoble.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:45
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Shelly Mazzanoble just proves that Wizards of the Coasts shares many of the same views about women that characters on Mad Men have. Did she even write any actual gaming materials or just some columns and a book for women to get them into D&D? It got no women into D&D.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:51
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Oh, god, Shelly Mazzanoble. Before she worked at WotC, she wrote like a normal person. When she started doing articles for their webpage, it was all 'Math is hard teehee glad I have a big strong boyfriend to DM for me *tosses hair*' There's no way that her bosses didn't force her to 'write more like a girl.'
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Jul 26, 2014 00:03
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It can be hard to take a direction like 'reach out to female gamers' and not end up with an issue like that. It's a classic example of a top-down mandate poorly executed. In such a position, either people write 'normally' in which case the boss says 'how is this any different to what we always write? Write at women! Write more womenishly!', or they go overboard and make obligatory shoe shopping refs and such.
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Jul 26, 2014 01:09
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Winson_Paine posted:Well a succubus IS a magic fuckmonster. I mean if you have a magic fuckmonster (not to be confused with the ogres in Runelords, which are just regular fuckmonsters) you are gonna have problems I reckon. At which point one begins wondering why Paizo needs to make an adventure centered around a magic fuckmonster, or, indeed, why it needs to have magic fuckmonsters at all. They are very traditional.
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Jul 26, 2014 01:25
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I think the "corruption of sexuality" is a reasonably legit topic for RPGs to include if you are going for a more serious themed game.
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Jul 26, 2014 02:30
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I don't understand what's so "serious themed" about the Areelu Vorlesh art, though.
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Jul 26, 2014 02:46
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Arivia posted:Deadnamed? Maintaining Gygaxian prose doesn't really seem like a good reason for using outdated and slightly disrespectful language. Finally, whilst it is an improvement it does still use questionable language. It needs to be pointed out even if it is better than what's come before. A lot of people tried to shut down criticism of WotC's effort with "but it's progress!" and that was frustrating and disheartening to many.
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Jul 26, 2014 02:51
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bunnielab posted:I think the "corruption of sexuality" is a reasonably legit topic for RPGs to include if you are going for a more serious themed game. Pathfinder isn't Monsterhearts, dude, and it never will be. You can make a "serious" game without touching on sex at all, and I would probably argue that you should, given how many designers cock it up. Winson_Paine posted:Found one of them anyway, here. Ah, yeah, I missed that. That is really cool.
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Jul 26, 2014 02:52
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bunnielab posted:I think the "corruption of sexuality" is a reasonably legit topic for RPGs to include if you are going for a more serious themed game. I agree, but (and again this is sort of a derail) I am not sure if a monster based on supersitions that more or spring from a fear of sex and an idea that sex is in and of itself corrupt are the best basis for an exploration of sexuality itself being corrupted. You would need some different monster for that; you can even see a refinement of it in Stoker's Dracula. The Succubus as presented in PF/D&D is not the vehicle to explore that particular topic in any real way.
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Jul 26, 2014 02:53
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Winson_Paine posted:I agree, but (and again this is sort of a derail) I am not sure if a monster based on supersitions that more or spring from a fear of sex and an idea that sex is in and of itself corrupt are the best basis for an exploration of sexuality itself being corrupted. You would need some different monster for that; you can even see a refinement of it in Stoker's Dracula. The Succubus as presented in PF/D&D is not the vehicle to explore that particular topic in any real way. Eh, I think if it is presented in an interesting manner then there isn't a need to invent a "incubus/succubus but differently named". Not that I am claiming that any specific game does it well, but i dont think one needs to abandon all the traditional/myth based monsters in order to do something interesting. Personally I prefer more hack-n-slash or light hearted games so I don't really have a huge stake in this stuff but find the discussion interesting.
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Jul 26, 2014 03:17
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Winson_Paine posted:I can dig that, but I think the point for many is they are seeing demonstrable improvement. Does this mean they are going to pulp their core book in favor of a reprinting without those elements? No, of course not. Does it mean they are doing better now than they were from the letter you quoted from two years ago? Sure. Is Wrath a clear improvement over Runelords? Sure. Progress is made. I don't think anyone is saying they are without flaw, but as far as major companies go (particularly given the weirdness around 5e recently) they are certainly showing signs. If it would take PF 2nd Ed (or probably at this point, PF Core Revised is more likely) without the elements you object to included to be printed, that is fine, but flat out denying that anything is happening seems a little much. This is basically where I am at. I don't think trashing your core book and reprinting it later because you've decided you want to take a few things you said back isn't really a great idea. 3E did that and everyone flipped out! Ettin fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 03:21
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Pathfinder and Paizo still have issues, both in terms of fluff and game design. That said this particular gesture strikes me as more sincere than Mike Mearls saying he wants to have a roundtable about inclusiveness in the hobby after he hired two enormous toxic assholes to consult on his new D&D and then spent a bunch of time dismissing everything everybody sent to him with regard to it.
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Jul 26, 2014 03:39
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Winson_Paine posted:I agree, but (and again this is sort of a derail) I am not sure if a monster based on supersitions that more or spring from a fear of sex and an idea that sex is in and of itself corrupt are the best basis for an exploration of sexuality itself being corrupted. You would need some different monster for that; you can even see a refinement of it in Stoker's Dracula. The Succubus as presented in PF/D&D is not the vehicle to explore that particular topic in any real way. Mind, with Golarion, succubi are the tricky supernatural seductresses, Incubi just straight-up force surprise sex on people. Also, you can guess which is depicted more art-wise, too... but then, they know their audience. Ettin posted:This is basically where I am at. I don't think trashing your core book and reprinting it later because you've decided you want to take a few things you said back isn't really a great idea. 3E did that and everyone flipped out! It's probably not reasonable to expect them to pulp their stock to remove all mention of manticore / lamia sexing, I think. But since I'm a consumer and can buy other games, I don't have to reasonable! 
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Jul 26, 2014 03:54
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