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Not MOR-related, but: Having read through the thread, the concept of Roko's Basilisk continues to bother me, but not for the reasons they want it to. The Basilisk's premise seems to be that an AI with the capability to improve the lot of humankind and the desire to implement that improvement ("friendly") will, in order to ensure that it gets completed as soon as possible, create an arbitrarily large number of perfect simulations of humans, living their lives before the AI's creation, and then submit any of the simulations who don't donate to the AI's creators' funding to arbitrarily large amounts of torture as soon as they choose not to donate. And since a person thus simulated can't be certain that they aren't a simulation rather than the original, they should donate to avoid being tortured. But a perfect simulation of me must be indistinguishable from me except that it is virtual and I am not, and so necessarily the simulation must be as sapient and free-willed as I am. Otherwise it's not a perfect simulation. If that's the case, and the Basilisk sees no problem with torturing that simulation, then it sees no problem with torturing intelligent, sapient life (since definitionally the only difference between the simulation and the real thing is that one has a physical existence) - unless it values the original sapient life over the simulated sapient life. In which case one of two things must be true: * the Basilisk values non-artificial/non-computer life more highly than artificial/computer-based life, in which case it can't use its own benefit (being created earlier) to justify the harm that the experiment does to the psyches of the people who know it will simulate them and thus shouldn't be able to run the simulations; or * the Basilisk is actually a hostile - at best a neutral - AI, not a friendly one. Either way, it fails at its job. (And anyway, it would be much more efficient from a financial standpoint to simply bribe one of the programmers to set COST_OF_BEING_A_BASILISK = 9999 in the genetic algorithm.)
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 18:43 |
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# ? Jun 10, 2024 01:01 |
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have any of the less wrong people murdered someone because there was very high chance that he was a simulation
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 18:50 |
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Namarrgon posted:I'll be honest: I actually like his magic setting better than the original. I think the Merlin's Interdict (can only learn more powerful spells from others or make them yourselves, not learn them from books) or the mechanics behind the killing curse or the horcrux are pretty neat. A setting is only as good as the stories it lets you tell. Harry Potter's magic system isn't elaborate, but it does its job. It provides a backdrop for a story about kids growing up at a magic school and fighting monsters, and it gets out of the way enough that the story is always about the characters without getting bogged down in the magic version of technobabble. In the Methods of Rationality, the magic system isn't there to be used or to tell stories. It's there to give an eleven-year-old boy an something to circlejerk with Literally Hitler about. In the actual Harry Potter series, the purpose of horcruxes is to keep the bad guy around and to give the heroes a bunch of tasks to overcome in order to fight him. In the Methods of Rationality, the purpose of horcruxes is for Literally Hitler to say "Horcruxes are stupid" and for Harry to reply "Indeed, as are all people who believe in souls", and for both to nod sagely in mutual superiority over everyone else. Let's see the mechanics of the killing curse, as explained in the latest chapter: Wizard Hitler posted:"There is a limitation... to the Killing Curse. To cast it once... in a fight... you must hate enough... to want the other dead. To cast Avada... Kedavra twice... you must hate enough... to kill twice... to cut their throat with your own hands... to watch them die... then do it again. Very few... can hate enough... to kill someone... five times... they would... get bored." The Defense Professor breathed several times, before continuing. "But if you look at history... you will find some Dark Wizards... who could cast the Killing Curse... over and over. A nineteenth-century witch... who called herself Dark Evangel... the Aurors called her A. K. McDowell. She could cast the Killing Curse... a dozen times... in one fight. Ask yourself... as I asked myself... what is the secret... that she knew? What is deadlier than hate... and flows without limit?" Hitler's Disciple posted:Harry had read once, somewhere, that the opposite of happiness wasn't sadness, but boredom; and the author had gone on to say that to find happiness in life you asked yourself not what would make you happy, but what would excite you. And by the same reasoning, hatred wasn't the true opposite of love. Even hatred was a kind of respect that you could give to someone's existence. If you cared about someone enough to prefer their dying to their living, it meant you were thinking about them. This is some pretty tenuous logic already. One could equally say that the opposite of North is not South, for that is also in the direction of a pole, but East. Or perhaps Up, because East and South, like North, are still compass directions. Or perhaps Right Here, because Up, East, and South, like North, are all directions pointing away from here. Or perhaps Monkeycheese, because Here, Up, East, and South all have to do with physical location, which makes them too similar to North to truly be its opposite, whereas Monkeycheese is completely unrelated. I can at least see how the "opposite of happiness is boredom" thing would appeal to a man like Yudkowsky who has never worked a day in his life, has never experienced hardship or loss, has all his money donated to him, and whose greatest struggle is working up the energy to write lovely Harry Potter fanfiction. Google tells me that the love/indifference, happiness/boredom thing is a quote from a self-help book. Wikipedia tells me that the book's author runs "an online nutritional supplements company" that claims its products will dramatically improve your memory and reaction time almost immediately, and that it claims its products are used by "17 world champions", but that it has produced zero evidence to support either claim. Also he's been caught buying positive reviews on Amazon for his self-help books. Apparently, Yudkowsky found those self-help books worthy of being a major focus of his philosophy and magic system. Hitler's Disciple posted:It had come up much earlier, before the Trial, in conversation with Hermione; when she'd said something about magical Britain being Prejudiced, with considerable and recent justification. And Harry had thought - but not said - that at least she'd been let into Hogwarts to be spat upon. Ah, of course, it all makes sense! ...except it really doesn't. In terms of the scale being discussed here, the Killing Curse is a relatively close-range spell. You can't use it to kill someone who's out of sight out of mind a continent away. It's not something you can passively, inadvertently cast without even realizing you're doing it just by not paying attention. It's not a grenade you can lob over a wall at a potential room full of faceless unseen people. If you're using the Killing Curse on someone, you're looking at that one person clearly and choosing to cast it on that one person. And the Harry Potter universe is full of spells that can completely incapacitate a target without killing them, most of which are far easier than the Killing Curse; if you choose to Avada Kedavra someone, you've decided not just that you want them out of your way at the moment but specifically that you want them dead. It's a bizarre shoehorned-in metaphor for immigration of all things, and it doesn't really make sense even within the context of the fiction. And since this is Yudkowsky's writing we're talking about, it has zero purpose to the story other than giving Harry an excuse to monologue here. Besesoth posted:Not MOR-related, but: Having read through the thread, the concept of Roko's Basilisk continues to bother me, but not for the reasons they want it to. You're forgetting that the AI is The problem is that most of us don't think you can just linearly add and subtract happiness/suffering that way. To us, if you shoot one kid's dad and give ten thousand other kids free ice cream, you're still a bad person. But Yudkowsky thinks that beep boop good-units and bad-units cancel each other out. The other problem is that Yudkowsky thinks that future events can directly affect the past because he's broken his brain with Timeless Decision Theory nonsense. The truth is that they can't, and even in Yudkowsky's own weird TDT logic, the future can only affect the past if the past contains an infinitely powerful perfect AI simulator, which it doesn't. But since Yudkowsky doesn't understand any of the words he spews out, he doesn't notice that sort of problem and thinks an AI would, once created, try to rewrite history to make itself be created sooner. It wouldn't and couldn't because that's dumb. Lottery of Babylon fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jul 27, 2014 |
# ? Jul 27, 2014 20:00 |
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So Yudkowsky's philosophy of ethics is like this comedy article? http://www.cockeyed.com/magic/bad5.php As for the Basilisk, I understand it's going to give everyone who does contribute to it eternal life in a volcano lair with a harem of 3 ^^^^^^^^^ 72 catgirls and prevent them from getting any dust specks in their eyes (even though volcano lairs surely get a bit dusty), and that will totally cancel out all the eternal torture. And it only tortures people because it's really sad that, every moment it doesn't exist, it can't save people from a sad, mortal, catgirl-less existence.
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 20:36 |
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SerialKilldeer posted:So Yudkowsky's philosophy of ethics is like this comedy article? I realize that you were just banging out a random number, but I was curious on calculating how many catgirls that was (as I am not a clever mathematician), plugged it into Google and got as a first result: The Quran 3:72 posted:And a faction of the People of the Scripture say [to each other], "Believe in that which was revealed to the believers at the beginning of the day and reject it at its end that perhaps they will abandon their religion" Anyway, back to calculating catgirls.
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 20:52 |
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Actually I chose 72 as the exponent for a reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#72_virgins
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 21:04 |
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SerialKilldeer posted:Actually I chose 72 as the exponent for a reason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#72_virgins Oh, yeah. Still it is far too many catgirls a volcano lair can safely hold.
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 21:11 |
Lottery of Babylon posted:This is some pretty tenuous logic already. One could equally say that the opposite of North is not South, for that is also in the direction of a pole, but East. Or perhaps Up, because East and South, like North, are still compass directions. Or perhaps Right Here, because Up, East, and South, like North, are all directions pointing away from here. Or perhaps Monkeycheese, because Here, Up, East, and South all have to do with physical location, which makes them too similar to North to truly be its opposite, whereas Monkeycheese is completely unrelated. "The opposite of hate is indifference" isn't an EY circlejerk thing, it's actually a pretty common truism. http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/ewieselperilsofindifference.html Elie Wiesel is a holocaust survivor, so he knows enough to talk about hate vs indifference. You can argue it isn't true, but it isn't just something some rear end in a top hat nerd made up.
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 21:18 |
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If indifference and not hate is the key to the killing curse, shouldn't a few million people drop dead every day because a wizard doesn't care about them? Or is it a "don't think about an elephant" thing, where your enemy keels over dead if you avoid giving them any thought?
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 21:33 |
SerialKilldeer posted:If indifference and not hate is the key to the killing curse, shouldn't a few million people drop dead every day because a wizard doesn't care about them? Or is it a "don't think about an elephant" thing, where your enemy keels over dead if you avoid giving them any thought? No, because no one said the magic words or waved a wand.
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 21:36 |
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quote:"There is a limitation... to the Killing Curse. To cast it once... in a fight... you must hate enough... to want the other dead. To cast Avada... Kedavra twice... you must hate enough... to kill twice... to cut their throat with your own hands... to watch them die... then do it again. Very few... can hate enough... to kill someone... five times... they would... get bored." The Defense Professor breathed several times, before continuing. "But if you look at history... you will find some Dark Wizards... who could cast the Killing Curse... over and over. A nineteenth-century witch... who called herself Dark Evangel... the Aurors called her A. K. McDowell. She could cast the Killing Curse... a dozen times... in one fight. Ask yourself... as I asked myself... what is the secret... that she knew? What is deadlier than hate... and flows without limit?" Huh, that name seems familiar. http://negima.wikia.com/wiki/Evangeline_A.K._McDowell quote:Evanjerin Atanashia Katerin Makudaueru), listed as Evangeline A.K. McDowell is a fictional character in the anime and manga series Negima!: Magister Negi Magi created by Ken Akamatsu. The 26th student in Japanese alphabetical order of class 2/3-A, she is actually a physically ageless centuries-old vampire cursed (Infernus Scholasticus (School Hell)) 15 years ago to remain at the school by Nagi Springfield, the father of her teacher and her disciple Negi Springfield. Initially an antagonist for Negi due to his father's actions, she eventually becomes an important teacher and guide for the young mage and his allies as they fight and search for his missing father. However, Eva remains a cruel, powerful mage in her own right, yet with the kindhearted sensitivities of her former human life. She later reappears in a semi sequel of Negima, UQ Holder! from Ken Akamatsu, still being a immortal Vampire where she take care of Negi's grandson after the death of his parent You got your 'looks like a child but is really 600 years anime love interest for a harem anime' mixed with 'super smart and obscenely rational boy wizard dismantles the rationale behind a 1000s year old magic society because he's just so rationally smart' So now LW is branching out to start seriously critiquing how some magical anime works? I can't wait for his "Sailor Moon and the MOR"
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 22:03 |
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pentyne posted:Huh, that name seems familiar. Oh for gently caress's sake. I read 'Dark Evangel' and though it sounded like anime's special brand of dumb sounding language-butchery. But A. K. McDowell sounds like a real person. Maybe someone who went on trial in the 19th century? Or a historical occultist? Or not
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 22:22 |
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Morkyz posted:"The opposite of hate is indifference" isn't an EY circlejerk thing, it's actually a pretty common truism. Yeah, the love/indifference part on its own is a real thing. But the happiness/boredom part only comes from some rear end in a top hat nerd who also paired it with the love/indifference thing, so that's definitely where Yudkowsky is getting it from. The indifference part definitely makes sense in the right context, but the boredom half is pure dumbass sheltered nerd bullshit, and pairing the two together cheapens the indifference part. Applying it to the Killing Curse also just isn't a good metaphor; indifference kills, but not because when people duel each other they load their guns with indifference bullets. pentyne posted:Huh, that name seems familiar. Hahaha even in his big dramatic speech where he reveals the great secret of the killing curse he still feels the need to reference creepy nerd anime. Imagine if real writers felt the need to do that. "No, Luke. I am your father. And my waifu is Sakura-chan."
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 22:33 |
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Strategic Tea posted:Oh for gently caress's sake. I read 'Dark Evangel' and though it sounded like anime's special brand of dumb sounding language-butchery. But A. K. McDowell sounds like a real person. Maybe someone who went on trial in the 19th century? Or a historical occultist? I thought it was a not very clever joke about J.K. Rowling
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 22:37 |
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For all the spurious logic thrown out over the killing curse, I'm surprised Yud didn't just give Harry a gun.
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 22:51 |
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Honestly, I've begun to suspect that there's one way to redeem HPMOR. We've all commented on how Harry is basically the villain. What if it turns out...that Harry is basically the villain, and it's intentional rather than an artifact of lovely writing?
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 23:14 |
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Patter Song posted:Honestly, I've begun to suspect that there's one way to redeem HPMOR. We've all commented on how Harry is basically the villain. What if it turns out...that Harry is basically the villain, and it's intentional rather than an artifact of lovely writing? There are still enough other artifacts of lovely writing to fill the Smithsonian.
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# ? Jul 27, 2014 23:41 |
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Dno't forget that he buys The Discworld Luggage on day one, there's an ancient spell to turn your wand into a nonlethal lightsaber, he's inserted fans' names into the story as random characters...
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 02:03 |
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I entered a random chapter number into the HPMOR URL. This is what I was rewarded with.Yudkowsky posted:MY LITTLE PONY: FRIENDSHIP IS SCIENCE After that it turns into Naruto fanfiction.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 02:14 |
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Of course he hates peer review. I actually am not surprised by this. This guy has a view of empiricism and reason that would be right at home in the 1200s. If you can reason it out by pure logic, it must be correct! Having to empirically prove your findings is then vulgar.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 02:24 |
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pentyne posted:Huh, that name seems familiar. pentyne posted:'looks like a child but is really 600 years anime love interest for a harem anime'
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 03:53 |
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SerialKilldeer posted:If indifference and not hate is the key to the killing curse, shouldn't a few million people drop dead every day because a wizard doesn't care about them? Or is it a "don't think about an elephant" thing, where your enemy keels over dead if you avoid giving them any thought? In the real Harry Potter, if you hate someone enough to kill them, and you're a powerful enough wizard, and you point a wand at them and say "avadra kedavra" then they die. In Methods of Rationality, it turns out that the hating part doesn't apply, you can just not care about that person and it works just as well. And apparently it has to work that way because you couldn't possibly hate six people enough to kill them, because you'd get bored.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 05:15 |
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Tiggum posted:And apparently it has to work that way because you couldn't possibly hate six people enough to kill them, because you'd get bored. Hey, it's not like people categorize other humans into groups and wish for the death of every individual member of that group, right?
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 05:38 |
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Mors Rattus posted:Of course he hates peer review. It helps that he's had his papers rejected from every recognized journal and conference that he's ever submitted to. "Am I so out of touch? No. It's the scientific method which is wrong."
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 05:41 |
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Lottery of Babylon posted:This is some pretty tenuous logic already. One could equally say that the opposite of North is not South, for that is also in the direction of a pole, but East. Or perhaps Up, because East and South, like North, are still compass directions. Or perhaps Right Here, because Up, East, and South, like North, are all directions pointing away from here. Or perhaps Monkeycheese, because Here, Up, East, and South all have to do with physical location, which makes them too similar to North to truly be its opposite, whereas Monkeycheese is completely unrelated. Unless I'm misremembering that intro to logic class I took ages ago, you get the opposite of something just by putting the word not in front of it. So in this case the opposite of north is not north, or in other words, anything else. Then the opposite of loving something is to not love it, and the opposite of being bored is to not be bored. Real simple stuff, and maybe you'd disagree on a philosophical level but as far as logic is concerned there's no need to overcomplicate things. For somebody who loves logic so much, you'd think Yudkowsky would know this. Unless... he doesn't actually know what he's talking about?
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 05:44 |
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Why is this familiar to you? http://negima.wikia.com/wiki/Evangeline_A.K._McDowell quote:Age Fan wikis are nothing if not obsessively detailed.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 06:30 |
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Lottery of Babylon posted:I entered a random chapter number into the HPMOR URL. This is what I was rewarded with. What on earth...
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 07:00 |
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Swan Oat posted:What on earth... quote:OMAKE FILES #4: Okay... so this is other stuff that LW wants to write about and inject his own brand of pseudo-intellectualism. quote:"The Enemy is very wise," said Gandalf, "and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it -" Ugh, LOTR. Well that's not too bad, but its still going to be "I know better then everyone else" bullshit. quote:"I had the strangest dream," Lucy said, her voice even quieter, "where we didn't have to organize any creatures or convince them to fight, we just walked into this place and the lion was already here, with all the armies already mustered, and he went and rescued Edmund, and then we rode alongside him into this tremendous battle where he killed the White Witch..." Wow, I can't imagine anything more poo poo then a devout atheist writing Narnia fanfiction. quote:Twilight Sparkle stared at the horror that had once been Nightmare Moon, racking her brains with frantic desperation and realizing that it was over, they were doomed, it was hopeless without Marie-Susan; everyone knew that no matter how honest, investigating, skeptical, creative, analytic, or curious you were, what really made your work Science was when you published your results in a prestigious journal. Everyone knew that... Haha, wow, gently caress YOU. This is literally tv show for young girls twisted to show how my logical and rational arguments are superior to any amount of outside criticism. quote:Hundreds had been killed, half the buildings wrecked, almost the whole village of Beisugakure had been destroyed. I impose rules of logic and rationality onto a massive Japanese media franchise that exists soley for the point of big dramatic fights that end with the power of friendship. quote:"It is," I said, feeling helpless about my inability to explain things to Richard. He didn't understand the thrill of being a polymath, the new worlds that were opening up to me. "I didn't share our research with anyone -" I don't know what this is a reference too but it's probably poo poo as well. quote:"I am sick of this!" shouted Liono. "Sick of doing this every single week! Our species was capable of interstellar travel, Panthro, I know the quantities of energy involved! There is no way you can't build a nuke or steer an asteroid or somehow blow up that ever-living idiot's pyramid!" I feel like the part of my brain that learned science in the public education system and then in college just refused to parse this bullshit so I can only assume is the most masturbatory fanfic poo poo imaginable. quote:Aladdin's face was wistful, but determined, as the newly minted street urchin addressed the blue being of cosmic power for one last time, prepared to leave behind the wealth and hope he had so briefly tasted for the sake of his friend. "Genie, I make my third wish. I wish for you to be -" OH COME THE gently caress ON YOU IMPOSSIBLE rear end in a top hat ALL KIDS ENTERTAINMENT MEDIA DON'T HAVE TO ADHERE TO SOME SUPREME RATIONAL IDEAL. There's a bunch of words about Hamlet, but I refuse to entertain this rear end in a top hat trying to "better" The Bard's work. quote:(HonoreDB has now extended this to a complete ebook) loving die in a fire Next we have - Moby Dick - Alice in Wonderland - The Matrix ...This is literally a cult with this rear end in a top hat Yudkowsky at the head. He has fed his brand of bullshit to the internet masses, inspired a horde of followers, and now has a fanbase that will fanatically and agressively defend any retarded idea that comes out of the shrunken atrophied blood deprived mass of muscle called his brain. They have bankrolled his living situation, offering him places to live for a month, wholeheartedly reject anything he disagrees with, and I assume this story will end with him surrounded by a bunch of dead Asian pre-teens while the FBI/ATF raids his "Rational Fortress" and him offering his wrists up expecting to win the forthcoming court proceedings by stunning the juries and judges into absolute submission from his infallible BAAAAAAAYEEEEEES logic.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 07:30 |
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pentyne posted:http://negima.wikia.com/wiki/Evangeline_A.K._McDowell For God's sake, that "random years (mentally)" bit is just gross. Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Jul 28, 2014 |
# ? Jul 28, 2014 08:36 |
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Uh, that's not what I was talking about. It was that you recognized the name of the creepy anime character in the first place. For God's sake, "random years (mentally)" is just gross. are you really asking why/how a goon knows the names of characters from some anime? the answer is
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 08:45 |
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I like the Moby-Dick one:quote:MOBY DICK AND THE METHODS OF RATIONALITY Because, yeah, clearly you guys are above engaging in a monomaniacal pursuit of a metaphorical white whale and losing touch with reality.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 09:16 |
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pentyne posted:(HonoreDB has now extended this to a complete ebook) When I first scanned over this I subconsciously categorised it as LISP, from the abundance of parentheses and the lack of general cogency.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 10:14 |
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pentyne posted:Ugh, LOTR. Well that's not too bad, but its still going to be "I know better then everyone else" bullshit. In case you were worried about why that bit was less insufferable than the rest, Google reveals that it's an actual quote from Fellowship of the Ring. This may also explain why it possesses actual character voice and why its complexity eventually resolves into a sensible idea, instead of it just being another transparent Yudkowsky-alike spouting the usual . I also just realized that the peer review pony in that awful MLP thing is named "Marie-Susan," a.k.a. "Mary Sue," presumably as in the term that adolescent (or mentally adolescent) fanfiction writers use to refer to original characters that aren't theirs and are therefore worthy of scorn. Way to stick it to the man, Yudkowsky! Are you and Aaron "science fetishist who scorns peer review because that poo poo is hard" Diaz besties yet?
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 10:18 |
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pentyne posted:I don't know what this is a reference too but it's probably poo poo as well.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 10:51 |
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The LotR quote is pretty anti-MOR anyway. This is a story about how we should industrially murder unicorns for life-extension purposes, do you really think they'd refuse the One Ring? Sauron was spot-on.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 10:53 |
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pentyne posted:
Add IQ to the List of Things Yudkowsky Doesn't Understand, I guess.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 11:21 |
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The Yud's rivals also have views on what the opposite of love is.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 14:57 |
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Tiggum posted:
I'm imagining two enemy wizards pointing their wands at each other going "I don't care about you!" "I don't care about you MORE! Avada Kedavra!" like some weird kids' game.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 15:22 |
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Antivehicular posted:I also just realized that the peer review pony in that awful MLP thing is named "Marie-Susan," a.k.a. "Mary Sue," presumably as in the term that adolescent (or mentally adolescent) fanfiction writers use to refer to original characters that aren't theirs and are therefore worthy of scorn. Way to stick it to the man, Yudkowsky! Are you and Aaron "science fetishist who scorns peer review because that poo poo is hard" Diaz besties yet?
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 15:42 |
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# ? Jun 10, 2024 01:01 |
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NGDBSS posted:When did this happen with Aaron Diaz? The last time I paid attention to him was when he was writing a somewhat pretentious webcomic. http://dresdencodak.com/2011/04/19/dark-science-09/ Diaz fetishizes science except for when it comes to doing actual science with peer review papers and such, which he regards as a popularity contest that holds science back.
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# ? Jul 28, 2014 16:52 |