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Torchlighter posted:they're writing him like he's a brand new character. But only in this instance. Everywhere else it's 'look at this thing from the second game! Hey look, it's Glyph! you remember Glyph?' The problem there is that they tried writing them game so that new players could get into the story. New players in the 3rd game in a series. Which is stupid. It's the same reason they wrote in Vega; who sucked.
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Jul 28, 2014 16:34
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My real issue is the way they're handling it. If you're right - and I still don't think Bioware is capable of including a serious plot theme of something like PTSD in a B-Movie Super Soldier universe like Mass Effect - there have to be better ways to show it than a child on fire. It's blunt, it's cheesy, it's a really stupid appeal to the lowest common denominator.
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Jul 28, 2014 17:02
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To be fair, Vega was poorly written for Male-Shep characters. He's a lot more fun hanging around Fem-Shep. Also to be fair regarding the dream sequence: as the game progresses more and more dead character's voices can be heard as you walk through the forest. There's a video on Youtube that plays all the audio clips that can happen and boy howdy does is it depressing to listen to. The major problem with that sequence in general is if you've been trying to keep everyone alive, you'll only hear whoever died at Virmire. And if you keep saving people that's all you'll hear for the majority of the game, making the scene more and more grating.
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Jul 28, 2014 17:29
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I consider the VNS plotline to be essentially complete after the end of that ME2 sidequest. I mean, you've gone through the wreckage of the SR1, experiencing flashbacks and planted a monument to her grave, I consider that complete. Personally I never really cared for Ashley anyway, so to bring her back up any more would be a pain. It was irritating enough listening to the Citadel sing her praises in ME2. I was fine with the kid. I'd point out one point that hasn't been mentioned. The unique point of the kid is that as a tragedy, it is something experienced by Shepard *alone*. All the other losses, all the other people who died was a shared tragedy. Virmire, casualties in the Suicide mission, and so on, those were things the whole team experienced together. The kid's shuttle being blown up is something Shepard alone appreciated the significance of, so it's a pain that she can't share, can't talk to anyone else about. It makes sense that it would fester in Shepard's mind because with the others, you can talk to your squadmates about them, you can experience some sense of closure. In the end, while Shepard can comfort her squadmates, I think the sense is that she, as the galactic badass, is afraid of showing the apparent weakness of it taking a toll on herself. Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jul 28, 2014 |
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Jul 28, 2014 19:38
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I think it's funny how people always rationalize killing Ashley by calling her a racist. They conveniently forget that she actually has a character arc where she starts off as racist and then realizes the error of her ways and ultimately becomes a great friend to all races. Kaiden, on the other hand, is just boring in the first game. He offers almost nothing.
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Jul 28, 2014 20:55
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I think it's mostly a question of the tonal shift Bioware apparently tried to do in the third game. The first two are pretty lighthearted. Even though Shepard & co. kill hundreds of guys they're all nasty bandits or mercenaries. In the second game mercenary groups recruit people very casually, implying that it's largely accepted and pretty much just adventuring. All the fights in the games are against overtly evil folks or people who decided to take up risky jobs, and they are fought in places where no bystanders are in danger of getting hurt (with a couple of exceptions, I seem to recall). Fun and games with little meaning or consequence. Sure, you could lose people in the second game, but you probably didn't if you didn't want to. The third game immediately jumps into 'war is hell and innocents are dying'-territory, which is a jarring change.
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Jul 28, 2014 21:05
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Livewire42 posted:The problem there is that they tried writing them game so that new players could get into the story. New players in the 3rd game in a series. Which is stupid. It's the same reason they wrote in Vega; who sucked. As a trilogy continues, the game's profile increases with each installment, with awards won, friends telling friends, and every marketing campaign building off the one before it. Naturally, expected buyers of ME3 was a bigger number than ME2's playerbase, which was bigger than ME1's playerbase. Going the opposite direction, there are certainly some buyers who played 1, but skipped 2, or 2 who skipped 3. Then there are the people who only complete about half or so of the game, but buy the next in the sequel because they're buying it for a couple hours entertainment rather than to ~complete the saga~. By the end of the trilogy, you have the largest group you can market to, with the largest amount who haven't played either of the previous installments. If this were a movie, I could understand expecting people to have to watch the previous three to six hours of film. Two more video games presents a considerable barrier to new players, especially with 1 showing its age. Bioware is a business, the Mass Effect series exists, full stop, to increase profits for EA shareholders. Mass Effect 3 absolutely must roll out the red carpet for new players.
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Jul 28, 2014 21:14
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Waltzing Along posted:I think it's funny how people always rationalize killing Ashley by calling her a racist. They conveniently forget that she actually has a character arc where she starts off as racist and then realizes the error of her ways and ultimately becomes a great friend to all races. Ashley has a character arc, but I think that dying at Virmire is a reasonable way to end it. She doesn't make much sense, for me, as someone Shepard particularly cares about. She was fortunate to be saved by her at the start of the game, she's just another grunt with a gun, she sees the error in her ways (debatable, I feel like she just learns to shut up to avoid conflict), then she dies a hero. The end. Kaidan is the voice of reason, he's someone I can believe was already a friend of Shepard's prior to the start of the game. One of the points of characterisation I particularly liked in ME3 is his non-romance interactions with FemShep. He's stable, he has his problems but really he just wants to chill out. It makes sense that he's the sort of person Shepard would want to interact with as everything is going to poo poo.
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Jul 28, 2014 21:17
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The thing about there being other reasons why the Council is short-sighted and greedy is totally valid; as Lt. Danger suggested, there's more to it that comes up later. Why I brought up that objection to the portrayal of the perfidious politician in ME is that it's universal. It isn't just the council; in ME1, Udina is generally portrayed as sneaky and short sighted and dumb because he is the 'politician'. Almost every time you encounter civilian authority it exists to get in your way, and the highest praise everyone has for Cerberus in ME2 is that they 'get things done' without political oversight and without red tape. Look at how Bailey reacts to his promotion, too. 'Ugh, I have to deal with civilian authorities and politics.' I don't even think it's really intentionally fascist, or whatnot. I think it's a function of genre, an easy appeal to the player's heroism, and a good way to give them a strawman to feel reasonable against while also conveniently explaining why they need to consistently undertake lots of random missions and do lots of favors to get people to work together. I think the fascistic element of it is somewhat accidental and that it's more of another attempt to boost the player's opinion of Shepard (People who are more like Shepard will generally be portrayed better. People who dislike or object to Shepard will generally be portrayed as villains or pathetic). There is a strong element of troop worship to the series, though, and military strength is generally the main means by which someone is something to be taken seriously in the setting.
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Jul 28, 2014 22:05
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Promontory posted:The third game immediately jumps into 'war is hell and innocents are dying'-territory, which is a jarring change. Bioware is not good at serious. Period.
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Jul 28, 2014 22:12
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I blame a lot of the problems in the story on the decision to stick to the trilogy format despite not having it properly plotted out. They tried to wrap everything up with the big climax of a war story, but weren't at all prepared for it, so everything comes off as rushed and contrived to fit it in with the "war is hell" theme. Even doing so little as making the time skip last a few years instead of just six months would help things a little. The writers had options, but they were too scrambled to use any of them.
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Jul 28, 2014 22:23
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Geostomp posted:I blame a lot of the problems in the story on the decision to stick to the trilogy format despite not having it properly plotted out. They tried to wrap everything up with the big climax of a war story, but weren't at all prepared for it, so everything comes off as rushed and contrived to fit it in with the "war is hell" theme. Even doing so little as making the time skip last a few years instead of just six months would help things a little. I disagree. Bioware's always been blunt and fairly cliche in their writing style. Even Dragon Age was a fairly generic fantasy story. I think they had exactly the story they had in mind for this, they just weren't great at conveying the finer points. Whether or not the story thy wanted to tell was a good fit for the franchise, however... I do want to point out that Mass Effect is a great example of how a story can be presented cinematically, while still having a good game with solid gameplay being the main feature that draws people in. It's very rare for games to be good at providing that 'cinematic experience' without sacrificing themes or gameplay elements. For example, The new thief game features several points where our hero has to flee across burning bridges with explosions occurring, despite the fact he's, y'know, a thief. SO I think Bioware should be praised on that as a whole.
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Jul 28, 2014 23:56
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Precambrian posted:As a trilogy continues, the game's profile increases with each installment, with awards won, friends telling friends, and every marketing campaign building off the one before it. Naturally, expected buyers of ME3 was a bigger number than ME2's playerbase, which was bigger than ME1's playerbase. Going the opposite direction, there are certainly some buyers who played 1, but skipped 2, or 2 who skipped 3. Then there are the people who only complete about half or so of the game, but buy the next in the sequel because they're buying it for a couple hours entertainment rather than to ~complete the saga~. In an ideal world, ME3 would've shipped with two modes: a text box pops up before the game starts and asks you how familliar you are with the series - "I have played Mass Effect 1&2" or "I am unfamiliar with the series". Pick the former and the game goes into full continuity lockout. There's the reminders for convinience, but other than that, we're all big boys and girls, and most of us probably played the last two games in the leadup to the third's release, treat us like we know the world. The other option would give us what we have here, with the handholding and so on. I would've gone for the full lockout in either case - say what you want, but if you're coming in to a 120 hour story at hour 80, that's your problem. A reminder or synopsis to bring you up to speed is always appreciated, especially if you've gone through the games before, but bending over backwards for the newcomers the way they did is detrimental. Hitlers Gay Secret posted:To be fair, Vega was poorly written for Male-Shep characters. He's a lot more fun hanging around Fem-Shep. The ironic thing is, at one point, he was supposed to be Male-Shep's gay love interest. I remember it being announced at one point, but for some reason it just fizzled out and Steve Cortez took his place.
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Jul 29, 2014 01:05
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I like Cortez, though. I like that he's a pretty professional and dependable officer.
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Jul 29, 2014 01:08
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I liked Cortez because he was the one guy I could talk to in Mass Effect without him creepishly hitting on Fem-Shep.
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Jul 29, 2014 01:35
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Night10194 posted:The thing about there being other reasons why the Council is short-sighted and greedy is totally valid; as Lt. Danger suggested, there's more to it that comes up later. Why I brought up that objection to the portrayal of the perfidious politician in ME is that it's universal. It isn't just the council; in ME1, Udina is generally portrayed as sneaky and short sighted and dumb because he is the 'politician'. Almost every time you encounter civilian authority it exists to get in your way, and the highest praise everyone has for Cerberus in ME2 is that they 'get things done' without political oversight and without red tape. Look at how Bailey reacts to his promotion, too. 'Ugh, I have to deal with civilian authorities and politics.' Yeah, thanks for pointing this out. The Council is so incredibly limp and unrealistic - they have 0% of the pomp of the UN or even the tiniest country, no one even has a secretary - that of course pushy, adolescent Shepard is gonna cajole them into action or shame their bureaucratic tendencies by screaming at them. The world is half Star Trek (people in uniforms solving complicated moral issues by chatting) and half Jack Nicholson's speech from A Few Good Men ("You want the truth? You can't handle the truth! The truth is that there is a wall that protects all your soft asses from the harsh realities of the world; I am that wall.") stapled onto a cover shooter. Put together with the ME series' overarching theme of daddy issues (or creator vs created) and you get mega-fascism, where a mystic warrior messiah cuts all Gordian knots of politics and cures emotional trauma with his/her genitals.
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Jul 29, 2014 03:03
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MartianAgitator posted:Yeah, thanks for pointing this out. The Council is so incredibly limp and unrealistic - they have 0% of the pomp of the UN or even the tiniest country, no one even has a secretary - that of course pushy, adolescent Shepard is gonna cajole them into action or shame their bureaucratic tendencies by screaming at them. Genitals and/or [Right Hook]
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Jul 29, 2014 03:08
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Exactly.
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Jul 29, 2014 03:11
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anilEhilated posted:Bioware is not good at serious. Period. I agree that the attempt seen here is clumsy, I haven't played many of their other games. It's almost like they were overcompensating to re-establish the reapers as a threat, since the player had beaten them twice already. How did they even get here? I wonder if the feeling of desperation they were trying to convey would have flowed better if the invasion of Earth would have occurred later in the story. Have Shepard blast a couple of reapers out of the sky when they attack (since at the end of the second game it pretty much felt like you could do that) but show that it's not enough, we need a superweapon. Earth being attacked might add some urgency to the final parts of the main quest, now it seems like the battle on Earth will be left awkwardly hanging in the background for the entire game. Another thing that came to my mind: did they drop the humanity first/galactic co-operation choice of the first two games? Earth being ruined at the start kinda seems to put an end to the whole human supremacy thing Cerberus endorses, and it looks like rallying the other species ('playing politics' that Shepard doesn't have time for  ) is the only option left.
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Jul 29, 2014 06:59
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I feel I should point out that if any of us lived in a world where an immortal unstoppable player character also lived we would probably have very different views about how politics should work
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Jul 29, 2014 09:38
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"I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite store on the Citadel." edit to add a bit more substance: So this LP actually made me retry the games, ME1 is still poo poo (copypasted dungeons, biotics that don't work half the time, flooded by identical guns), but I'm having a decent amount of fun starting from the second one. So thanks I guess. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 10:02
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Promontory posted:I agree that the attempt seen here is clumsy, I haven't played many of their other games. It's almost like they were overcompensating to re-establish the reapers as a threat, since the player had beaten them twice already. How did they even get here? The Arrival DLC in ME2, while not the best DLC ever released, was kinda essential for plot reasons, basically the Reapers are about to use the Alpha Relay which is connected to all others, so Shepard blows it up, which results in you being court marshaled for killing an entire star system in the explosion. The Reapers are then forced to take the long way around which leads straight into ME 3's Reaper arrival and attack.
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Jul 29, 2014 10:49
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anilEhilated posted:My real issue is the way they're handling it. If you're right - and I still don't think Bioware is capable of including a serious plot theme of something like PTSD in a B-Movie Super Soldier universe like Mass Effect - there have to be better ways to show it than a child on fire. It's blunt, it's cheesy, it's a really stupid appeal to the lowest common denominator. Yeah, after the fact that the scenes exist at all, this would be my next big complaint about it. Not to mention if this is what we're supposed to take away (Shepard now has PTSD) then why does it only show up during dream sequences and during the entire rest of the game he acts like he always has? Also I'm enjoying the LP, I don't know if I'm the minority for this opinion or not, but out of the 3 games, while I hate the story for 3 the most (mainly the ending and stupid characters) I actually find the game parts of 3 to be the most fun out of the entire series. Mostly because it was all the good aspects of 2, while getting rid of the rock-paper-scissors part of the health thing.
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Jul 29, 2014 13:38
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I think most people can agree that ME3 is a good game (just see the popular multiplayer for proof) but it's a bad narrative (see... well, just about every discussion of the game, really). It'll be interesting to see if Lt. Danger is able to change any opinions on that.Revdomezehis posted:Yeah, after the fact that the scenes exist at all, this would be my next big complaint about it. Not to mention if this is what we're supposed to take away (Shepard now has PTSD) then why does it only show up during dream sequences and during the entire rest of the game he acts like he always has? The visions, IIRC, only happen when Shep's alone. It's not out of the question to say that they're putting on a brave face or focussing on the main problems when around others.
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Jul 29, 2014 14:38
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Judge Tesla posted:The Arrival DLC in ME2, while not the best DLC ever released, was kinda essential for plot reasons, basically the Reapers are about to use the Alpha Relay which is connected to all others, so Shepard blows it up, which results in you being court marshaled for killing an entire star system in the explosion. The full breakdown, for those not keeping track: Backstory: The Reapers purge the galaxy of life every 50,000 years. They are able to do this so effectively because - in addition to being hulking monstrosities with technology and firepower beyond most sentient reckoning - they carefully placed the Mass Relays in a network of their own design to encourage civilization to develop along paths that they can later cut off and isolate. Key to this plan is the Citadel, itself of Reaper construction and - unbeknownst to any species that settles it - also a dormant Mass Relay linking to dark space, where the Reapers chill during their downtime. When the Reapers invade, they signal the Citadel Relay to activate and show up right at the heart of galactic civilization in full force, and therefore can divide and conquer the galaxy. The Protheans, in their last, desperate moments, were able to sabotage the Reaper signal that activates the Citadel - albeit too late to save themselves. Mass Effect 1: The Reaper Sovereign ne้ Nazara attempts to reactivate the Citadal Relay manually by enlisting rogue Spectre Saren and a small army of Geth to attack it from within as a distraction. He intends to undo the Prothean sabotage so the Reapers can show up and do their thing. Sheperd shows up and, well. Mass Effect 2: The Reapers are now pissed and start flying from their home in dark space to the galaxy. They are quite far away though, so this will take some time. In the meantime, they call up the Collectors and have them start specifically targeting humans to harvest a massive amount of human DNA to turn into a new Reaper because apparently this is a thing they do. Sheperd shows up, and, well. Arrival DLC: In the time it took everything in Mass Effect 2 to happen, the Reapers have gotten from dark space to the edge of the galaxy. The Alpha Relay happens to be the outermost Mass Relay in the galaxy by a big margin and will therefore give the Reapers a massive foothold. The Council is massively unprepared to defend the galaxy, so Sheperd blows up the relay to buy some time. There was some slight collateral damage consisting of, uh, Fedule fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 18:54
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Fedule posted:There was some slight collateral damage consisting of, uh, the Batarian homeworld and most of their race. Feelings on the subject are mixed. I'm not very far into ME2, but every single Batarian I met so far was a dick. This could be fun. e: It strikes me that giving this particular choice to the player might not be the best stimulant of conscience. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 19:09
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anilEhilated posted:I'm not very far into ME2, but every single Batarian I met so far was a dick. This could be fun. There are no likable Batarians in the whole series. You are right, blowing up the relay is not a hard choice at all.
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Jul 29, 2014 19:15
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anilEhilated posted:I'm not very far into ME2, but every single Batarian I met so far was a dick. This could be fun. Batarians believe that everything bad that's ever happened to their race is because of humanity, if a Batarian space car falls out of the sky, a human did it, if a Batarian kid gets bullied at school, a human was behind it, so yeah, they all hate humans. Most of this hate is down to the massive anti human propaganda that comes from their government, ME3 actually has some decent Batarians because they aren't being watched 24/7 by the Batarian Thought Police anymore.
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Jul 29, 2014 19:23
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Fedule posted:Arrival DLC: In the time it took everything in Mass Effect 2 to happen, the Reapers have gotten from dark space to the edge of the galaxy. The Alpha Relay happens to be the outermost Mass Relay in the galaxy by a big margin and will therefore give the Reapers a massive foothold. The Council is massively unprepared to defend the galaxy, so Sheperd blows up the relay to buy some time. There was some slight collateral damage consisting of, uh, the Batarian homeworld and most of their race. Feelings on the subject are mixed. Not quite correct. It wasn't the Batarian homeworld, it was just a colony of a few hundred thousand people.
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Jul 29, 2014 19:47
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the Batarian Soldier class in me3mp did more to redeem Batarians than the entire rest of the trilogy combined.
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Jul 29, 2014 19:54
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Judge Tesla posted:Batarians believe that everything bad that's ever happened to their race is because of humanity, if a Batarian space car falls out of the sky, a human did it, if a Batarian kid gets bullied at school, a human was behind it, so yeah, they all hate humans.
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Jul 29, 2014 20:19
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Montegoraon posted:Not quite correct. It wasn't the Batarian homeworld, it was just a colony of a few hundred thousand people. Whoops.
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Jul 29, 2014 20:27
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anilEhilated posted:I'm not very far into ME2, but every single Batarian I met so far was a dick. This could be fun. ME2 has a grand total of ONE batarian that isn't hostile towards the player/humanity. ME3 is at least a bit more balanced, does help reinforce their government's position as "Space North Korea" though.
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Jul 29, 2014 20:36
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StrifeHira posted:ME2 has a grand total of ONE batarian that isn't hostile towards the player/humanity. ME3 is at least a bit more balanced, does help reinforce their government's position as "Space North Korea" though. Yeah, another thing about that colony Shep blew up, it was some piece of poo poo planet that the Batarians only colonized because the humans decided it wasn't worth it. So the Batarians poured tons of resources into a worthless planet just to prove that they're better than the humans. It had half of Earth's atmospheric pressure, an average surface temperature of 55 C, and was only about .4 Earth masses. Too hot, air too thin, and tiny. It was basically this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNaXdLWt17A&t=0m20s
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Jul 29, 2014 20:55
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A little showing my age here but I think one of the most icon locations in a video game ever was probably kelethin.
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Jul 30, 2014 06:35
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namad posted:A little showing my age here but I think one of the most icon locations in a video game ever was probably kelethin. I'm not familiar with this. What was Kelethin?
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Jul 30, 2014 06:52
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The Batarians are also super into slavery. It seems to be their main cultural export.
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Jul 30, 2014 08:33
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Is this game being played using an imported save? Thread seemed to have the impression that it's using the defaults without a save being imported, but I don't think Shepard recognises the Shadow Broker VI unless it's from a save which has completed Lair of the Shadow Broker.
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Jul 30, 2014 10:34
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MartianAgitator posted:Yeah, thanks for pointing this out. The Council is so incredibly limp and unrealistic - they have 0% of the pomp of the UN or even the tiniest country, no one even has a secretary - that of course pushy, adolescent Shepard is gonna cajole them into action or shame their bureaucratic tendencies by screaming at them. What particularly sticks in my craw is that they're supposed to be, as you mentioned, limp and bureaucratic, but can also authorise agents with universal jurisdiction who are literally above the law. Is that supposed to be their way of off-loading responsibility, even though it would realistically result in infinitely more paperwork? In fact, the Council seems weirdly dictatorial for possessing that kind of authority in the first place, without any checks or balances.
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Jul 30, 2014 11:16
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What particularly sticks in my craw is that they're supposed to be, as you mentioned, limp and bureaucratic, but can also authorise agents with universal jurisdiction who are literally above the law. Is that supposed to be their way of off-loading responsibility, even though it would realistically result in infinitely more paperwork? In fact, the Council seems weirdly dictatorial for possessing that kind of authority in the first place, without any checks or balances. When Shep accuses Saren of murder in the first game, the Council refuses to believe her, not just because she's one of those annoying humans, but because Saren's a Spectre: they're above the law because they're supposed to be incorruptible. They're equally feared and revered because they're the pinnacle of their species. There's no checks or balances because the council trusts them so implicitly. The methods each one uses may be questionable, but the idea of one going totally rogue? Never going to happen. That's why there's such surprise when Saren's treachery is revealed, and why, in the second game, so many people are unwilling to believe it.
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Jul 30, 2014 11:53
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