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The page of namor doing the deed was confusing to me because I thought they had to be on their own world. Aren't they in the blast radius?
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Jul 31, 2014 10:20
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Man those Avenger issues were good. But I have to say out of all the things, the biggest loving gutpunch was even after the Great Society had been killed by that Creature From Beyond the Stars*, seeing Sungod as beaten and drained as he was PLEADING for the Illumanati not to do it. That was just rough, even at the end he still held out hope that the Illumanti aren't monsters. As for Namor, that was a fantastic story with a natural, logical conclusion to his actions. They all made perfect sense. But I am done with him. He's not a hero or anti-hero or charming dick in my mind. The dude is a straight up villain with that one move and he will have to pay before this is done. Like you can make the argument his destruction of Wakanda in AvX was fairly villainous, but he wasn't in full control of his actions while Phoenixed up? But this, that was pure Namor. And it was monstrous. Yeah you can talk it had to be done, that two universes would die if he hadn't. But gently caress that poo poo. 7 + Billion people died, a bunch of heroes were murdered and the Illumanti are still no closer to solving the Incursions then when they started. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving the NA story, but they are just horribly failing at this. Three minor points: How was Dr. Strange's use of the Blood Bible any better. Sure it killed the Great Society, but was that thing supposed to just come down and completely destroy the world in like 20 minutes? Would it have counted to stop the Incursion or would it just be some nightmarish "This thing eats humanity/ makes them go mad and rules over a devastated Earth?" I'm not really sure Stephen thought that one through. Did anyone else find it funny how Black Panther didn't do either of the two things his dad asked. And how his refusal to kill Namor meant was what allowed the second request (blow up the other Earth) to happen. Had Namor been dead would the world be blown up? (Possibly since a T'Challa willing to kill Namor would likely be capable of blowing up an Earth.) Thirdly, unless this story isn't finished then Hawkeye was wrong. Tony Stark being present did not in any way change the outcome of the fight with Great Society. Then again, maybe that was the point that time travel doesn't allow you to make significant changes. Franklin Richards does talk about that a lot. * = Does anyone else find it odd how whenever the Great Society died, their death made them look like what happened to the Black Priests with the whole blue flaming skulls thing? Is it possible that one iteration of them died, or they became part of some other machine?
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Jul 31, 2014 12:19
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Yeah, I'm wondering what Strange's actual plan was too. Was it just to provide a distraction so others could set the bomb, or did he really think The Blood Bible had the power to destroy a world in a way that would stop the incursion? I also really like Namor in that this is really a big thing that Bendis introduced into Avengers. Shortly after Wolverine is offered a spot on New Avengers, Cap and Tony have a talk. Cap is all like "But he's a killer" and Tony makes the case that they need an Avenger who can cross the line if it needs to be crossed to stop another Scarlet Witch. Of course it seems like whenever Bendis' Avengers faced a sitation like that, they all fought against Wolverine not to do it. But this is the first time the Avenger who is there to cross the line is allowed to do so. And if Namor is a villain, what does that make the rest of them? Except for Strange, they all built the bomb. Namor is a lot of things but he isn't a genius and he wouldn't have been able to build that on his own.
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Jul 31, 2014 12:33
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The Question IRL posted:Thirdly, unless this story isn't finished then Hawkeye was wrong. Tony Stark being present did not in any way change the outcome of the fight with Great Society. Then again, maybe that was the point that time travel doesn't allow you to make significant changes. Franklin Richards does talk about that a lot. Sure it did. Tony being present meant his gauntlet could be used to stop Strange's Pet Nyarlahotep. Who's to say how much worse things would have been - how much more tragic things could have gotten - had that not happened? I don't know how significant that change will end up being, but I suspect it'll be significant enough.
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Jul 31, 2014 12:49
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The Question IRL posted:Man those Avenger issues were good. That's such a narrow minded attitude to take. Either 7 billion die or unimaginable trillions - literally everyone - die. What Namor did was heroic as it comes, he stepped up and took responsibility for a terrible act so two entire universes could live, safely forever in the GS universe's case. The Illuminati have been trying for ages to come up with non-violent solutions and so far haven't had much luck. There were 10 minutes left, what else could anyone have done? What would you have done, let everyone die?
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Jul 31, 2014 13:01
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Sentinel Red posted:That's such a narrow minded attitude to take. Either 7 billion die or unimaginable trillions - literally everyone - die. What Namor did was heroic as it comes, he stepped up and took responsibility for a terrible act so two entire universes could live, safely forever in the GS universe's case. The Illuminati have been trying for ages to come up with non-violent solutions and so far haven't had much luck. There were 10 minutes left, what else could anyone have done? What would you have done, let everyone die? If you press that button, you DEFINITELY kill 7 billion people. If you don't press the button something might happen and two Universes may die. But if they do, it's not your fault. It's whatever is causing the Incursions will be what killed the universes. My point is, and this has been Cap's argument since the start. The Illumanati set themselves up as people who want to stop the Incursions, and are willing to make hard choices to do so, but only if it's necisarry. Cap understood that mindset will just slip to "let's solve this problem with bombs" time and time again and not work on a true ultimate solution. So that's why they kicked him out (though funnily enough when the time came most of them couldn't make the hard decision. Including Bruce who was supposedly brought in as a fresh set of eyes.) You had two teams of super champions, if they had been actually prepared to work together (and not wanted to make a weak stab at talking, all the while carrying a bomb that they were fully prepared to use) well....maybe they would have failed. Maybe not. But no, Namor pressed that button, he killed those people.
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Jul 31, 2014 13:22
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Obviously the whole point is the weedy morality, but I really can't see how physically pressing the button at the last second makes Namor any worse than the others who all clearly abetted that action. In the "Cap was Right" argument the time to try something different was months ago, not moments before trillions of people dying is as certain as billions dying from pushing the button is.
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Jul 31, 2014 13:44
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Sentinel Red posted:What would you have done, let everyone die? Actually told the wider super-hero community "Hey, some poo poo is going down, we could really use some help on this" from day one. That probably would have done some good. Especially considering every single source we have, including people from the future after everything happens says "Yeah the Illuminati fail and they kill a bunch of people and absolutely nobody is happy with any of them". They are sprinting down a path of abject failure, and when Captain America calls that shot from the beginning? Maybe you should be listening. Having already hosed up by being pathetic control freaks, in the moment there is nothing wrong with what Namor did. You wanted to play God in your secret clubhouse like you were going to fix anything, you fail, you don't get to cry about the high price of being in charge when it comes time to push the button. If you are going to cry, you shouldn't have taken all the power of the choice on yourself in the first place. Or built the bomb for that matter. Again, this was not some esoteric confluence of events that couldn't be foreseen. Day one Captain America goes "You know how this ends, one of you will build a bomb, and then you are going to kill a world, and you'll pat yourselves on the back about it and say it had to be done". So here we are at the end. All their might and intelligence was meaningless, they have no new information of real use compared to when they started, now there are two populated Earths ready to slam into each other. You built the bomb. Use it. If nothing else Namor generally has the strength of his convictions. Everyone else set themselves up to do the same thing, they just pretend they still have the right to feel real bad about it. At least he has the good grace to seem to hate himself for it all but keep functioning.
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Jul 31, 2014 14:26
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One thing to keep in mind is how the conversation with Swan and Maximus went. What might be a bit more unique than other incursions on other Earths is that she is dealing with the Illuminati rather than just superheroes. The difference makers here were Kings. Black Bolt and Namor and TChalla who have to make decisions that break them personally but uphold the people and world they are to protect above them. Cap is the hero. The Avengers wheel is going to be instrumental and is likely in a way responsible for some of this. We see what happens in the future state of the Avengers Wheel and Machine what it becomes. I think we are going to Se the future state of the Illuminati soon. I still think an evil advanced Illuminati is behind it with the reflections of the Black Priests and Map Makers and Ivory and Ebony Kings which Swan has not gone in depth about. And ultimately would not be surprised if adding villains like Thanos and Doom who have loose threads allow them to stop the incursions successfully. He is an ace and weapon the other world's have not had and those guys are willing to go a Hella far than Kings. It's got to be Cap that keeps them in check. I hope Hickman does a Franklin and Sister series after this. He is an awesome development. I feel after doing what he did with Valerie and Franklin and is doing all this on Avengers he is setting the tone for Marvel like Bendis did in heyday with like Ultimate Spiderman. Crafting the next many years of vision for Marvel. Gatts fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 15:08
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It's easy to sit outside of the situation knowing that even if the iluminati sat on their thumbs eating hostess fruit pies poo poo would have worked out because the gravy train don't stop but Namor as a character isn't aware that he's in a fantasy world. Hell the Number of times they have saved the universe should scare any character in the know shitless because nobody bats a thousand forever. But the idea that if they did nothing they would be absolved of the deaths they failed to prevent is the greatest misunderstanding of the cape comic medium's moral standard I have run across. "With Great Power Come Great Responsibility" is the marvel multiverse's prime rule handed down by the One Above All for Uncle Ben's sake.
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Jul 31, 2014 15:12
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I was honestly expecting Namor to be secretly horribly remorseful from killing all those Wakandans and therefore unwilling to kill when this book started, but that was well before I dropped it because Hickman.
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Jul 31, 2014 17:32
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Boogaleeboo posted:Actually told the wider super-hero community "Hey, some poo poo is going down, we could really use some help on this" from day one. That probably would have done some good. Especially considering every single source we have, including people from the future after everything happens says "Yeah the Illuminati fail and they kill a bunch of people and absolutely nobody is happy with any of them". They are sprinting down a path of abject failure, and when Captain America calls that shot from the beginning? Maybe you should be listening. The problem with telling outsiders is that if the news somehow leaks, you risk creating another Infinity scenario where all the aliens decide to destroy Earth to save the universe at large (also people would be panicking in the streets if they learned that the world might end any day now). I don't understand what people would do in the scenario that would somehow be the moral high ground, compared to the Illuminati's actions. This is a situation with no "good" outcomes, and to say that the Illuminati are evil for not inventing a workaround out of whole cloth is incredibly disingenuous. Here are the options they had: A. Destroy Earth B, both universes are saved B. Let the other guys destroy Earth A, both universes are saved C. Do nothing, both universes die D. Move Earth A out of the way, both universes are saved but the Illuminati are shut out of preventing the death of the multiverse B would never happen, D would be an admission of defeat and not solve the greater problem, and C would be objectively worse than blowing up a planet. Until they magically find another way (and they've been trying), those are the only four options they'll ever have. Doing nothing isn't the moral high ground, it's a conscious decision to let everyone die to satiate your own ego. Inaction is probably the most villainous thing you could do in this scenario.
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Jul 31, 2014 17:32
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Regarding Strange, I believe he would have eventually destroyed the world but it would have also killed him. He implies this in earlier issues. Whatever it was that he summoned was obviously taking over. Tony knocking him out spared him and they fell back on their bomb to finish the incursion. Also after AoU and Infinity, putting another huge target on Earth is probably a really bad idea. Doubly so if the reason behind Infinity ever comes to light. There's no way that the majority of the civilizations and worlds not choose to simply evacuate and destroy Earth. Hell, evacuation may not even be a priority to some. Happy Noodle Boy fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 17:33
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I want a What If issaue where Tiny "Zeus" Lister takes the detonator from Namor's hands, throws it into Gotham Harbor, sits down and silently awaits the inevitable.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:06
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Gavok posted:I want a What If issaue where Tiny "Zeus" Lister takes the detonator from Namor's hands, throws it into Gotham Harbor, sits down and silently awaits the inevitable. What if Tiny Lister didn't commit mortgage fraud?
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Jul 31, 2014 18:08
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Also, if Zeus was part of the team, they wouldn't have been called the Illuminati. After sending Banner to space, they would be known as the Alliance to End Hulkamania.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:15
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Given Maximus' conversation with Swan while that was going on, I'm pretty sure she's dead. Out of The Illuminati, I'd put Black Bolt second in a willing to kill for this world list. BB agrees with me too: someone else doesn't havw any cracks leading to them: Cap. Namor is the kind of guy who'd blow up someone else's world to save both universes. Cap would of course try to find another way, but he's also the kind of guy who would blow up his own world to save all the other worlds.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:21
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I would love to see the script for that page. EDIT: I would actually like to see the script for most of NA's issues.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:26
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A.o.D. posted:someone else doesn't havw any cracks leading to them: Cap. Namor is the kind of guy who'd blow up someone else's world to save both universes. Cap would of course try to find another way, but he's also the kind of guy who would blow up his own world to save all the other worlds. There's a tiny little crack pointing at Cap.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:32
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But part of the thing is, the Illumanti talked to the lying liar who lies (and then tries weaselling her way out of it by saying she's not lying and that they've asked the wrong question.) and have just been focusing on how do we bomb away the next threat? At least the Great Society were open to trying new things. And not just going straight to Worldkilling. I appreciate why people are saying that "at least the Illumanti are making a choice" but I still am against what they are doing. It's the problem that the "Intelligent" people have appointed themselves the only one to solve this problem, and fail to see that there are viewpoints they must be missing. That is the advantage that a team of 20+ Avengers would likely have in this situation (or even the Fantastic Four) in a wide viewpoint, that you aren't getting with the Illums. And yes Reed and Co built the bomb. And a lot of blame has to go to them. But Namor still pushed the button in the end. So the blame has to go to him. What I'm trying to say is, when Spider-man discovers that all you had to do to stop the Incursions is to spray webbing in the Big Bad's eyes, while Hyperion punches him in the face, Reed and Co are going to feel awfully dumb.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:32
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Skwirl posted:There's a tiny little crack pointing at Cap. So it is. I thought it might've been going back at Blackbolt, but no, it's right at Cap's head.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:35
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The Question IRL posted:But part of the thing is, the Illumanti talked to the lying liar who lies (and then tries weaselling her way out of it by saying she's not lying and that they've asked the wrong question.) and have just been focusing on how do we bomb away the next threat? At least the Great Society were open to trying new things. And not just going straight to Worldkilling. It will be when they realize all they had to do was bring Squirrel Girl in or tell Peter if he doesn't stop this Aunt May will die. Then we will get a whole level of retarded to save the day.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:51
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The Question IRL posted:
Tony did change the outcome, his repulsor stopped Strange, who knows what that elder god that was taking him over would have done. Maybe it would have destroyed the other Earth then attacked 616 Earth.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:19
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Playing devil's advocate here, telling the other heroes of the world about the incursions would increase the chance that they could solve the problem without destroying other worlds, but at the same time, increase the chances that a villain hears about it. If someone like Doom got word, you can be sure as hell he would be the first one to build the bomb and the blow the poo poo out of the other world or try to use it for their own purposes and possibly sabotage any successful plans. Not to mention that if the rest of the universe got word, then everyone will be out gunning for them (possibly even Galactus). At that point you've got more to worry about than just an incursion. Not to say that it was the best idea not bringing more people in, but that they probably did consider the other options (they certainly combined forces with everyone when the Celestial was about to blow up the earth in Uncanny Avengers). You could say that building the bomb blinded them to other options, but you always have to have a backup plan (ESPECIALLY if you don't even know what your main plan is), and unfortunately it is what they had to utilize. Furthermore there is something to be said for Namor, who was ultimately the one who had to pull the trigger. He was condemning billions to death so that many more could be saved, and while it's difficult, if not impossible to quantify the value of a life vs another, it is something people do in our world (albeit on a much smaller scale) and we do not regard them as monsters. There have been stories in war of people on sinking ships sealing doors while their friends were on the other side in order to save the rest of the boat.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:24
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The Illuminati being bamboozled by Black Swan and not expending their energies elsewhere is less egregious to me than the Avengers having incredibly useful, powerful fonts of information at their beck and call and never loving just asking them what to do. This is essentially a series where a straight answer would solve all the problems, so no one ever asks and no one with answers ever offers. Steve: "So the universe is broken? Broken how?" Ex Nihilo: *shrug* Steve: "Okay, so how did it happen in the first place?" Blackmask: "I don't follow." Steve: "Seriously though, how do we fix it? Universe: Steve: Universe: 
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Jul 31, 2014 19:27
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Wasn't the major problem with telling other people about the worlds colliding is they wouldn't let the alternatives be developed. It's the same thing that happened to cap in the first couple of issues in NA. There was no way in hell that he was going to let them build the world destroying devices. That could have potentially doomed the entire universe. It's the same thing that happened with Sun God. He was completely idealistic, but guess what, that would do poo poo all in solving the problem. that's what I really like about NA lately. It actually does have some gray morality, which many other comic book runs have failed at.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:05
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Actually one it the things I want to see from the aftermath of Cap blowing the secret into the open is how many of the Avengers go "so we'd be dead if they hadn't done that? Why are we against it again?" Hawkeye clearly isn't on board. Widow and Logan probably would be for. Thor would take the incursion into his own book and solve them single handedly in the most badass and metal of ways. Hyperion we've seen try. He would actually be conflicted I think. He's all about life but he's also seen universes die. There's no way the entire avengers machine focuses on just the Illuminati like Cap is doing.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:30
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Actually one it the things I want to see from the aftermath of Cap blowing the secret into the open is how many of the Avengers go "so we'd be dead if they hadn't done that? Why are we against it again?" I dunno, the ones he brought with him seemed like they were on Cap's side when he confronted Tony.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:32
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Senor Candle posted:I dunno, the ones he brought with him seemed like they were on Cap's side when he confronted Tony. thats because he didnt tell them anything other than "tony remade the illuminati and is being a huge dick"
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Jul 31, 2014 20:34
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jsoh posted:thats because he didnt tell them anything other than "tony remade the illuminati and is being a huge dick" And generally if Captain America comes into a room shouting that Tony Stark has hosed up, nine times out of ten he's right. Plus I'm sure a lot of the Avengers still carry some kind of grudge over Civil War and would love an excuse to sock Tony in the jaw once.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:51
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HorseRenoir posted:The problem with telling outsiders is that if the news somehow leaks, you risk creating another Infinity scenario where all the aliens decide to destroy Earth to save the universe at large (also people would be panicking in the streets if they learned that the world might end any day now). Tough? They've failed repeatedly when they've tried to do the secret council dealing with all threats thing, or really anything big. They failed as the last Illuminati, Reed and Stark failed with the Civil War, Stark failed after the Civil War, Reed has just seen that basically every single version of himself but him is a massive evil failure, Hank failed with bringing past versions of the X-men to the future, Namor's entire life is an unending stream of failure, Black Panther is a failure as a leader of his country and couldn't keep his marriage together, Black Bolt is a failure as leader of an interstellar empire.....it's not a group that inspires confidence in their wider planning skills. Maybe they should just accept they suck as human beings and move on. The joke is they pretend they are intelligent strategists, but when anything more complicated than punching someone in the face happens they pretty much gently caress it up. quote:This is a situation with no "good" outcomes, and to say that the Illuminati are evil for not inventing a workaround out of whole cloth is incredibly disingenuous They are evil because they took the fate of the world on their shoulders and decided they were the sole arbiters of who lives and dies, again, after the last few times they did that led to massive death and destruction. When every single time you do a thing it fails and kills innocent people, you eventually have to accept doing that thing makes you a monster no matter your intentions. e: The greatest flaw of the status quo of big name comics is that none of these idiots will be killed or jailed for life after this fiasco. Mulva fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 20:53
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If word of the incursions reached say, a Skrull posing as an Avenger, how long do you think it'd be before the alliance from Infinity would try to blow up the Earth?
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Jul 31, 2014 21:02
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Die Laughing posted:If word of the incursions reached say, a Skrull posing as an Avenger, how long do you think it'd be before the alliance from Infinity would try to blow up the Earth? Good thing the Illuminati are impervious to infiltration! 
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Jul 31, 2014 21:33
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Lurdiak posted:Good thing the Illuminati are impervious to infiltration! That probably even made them more justified in being paranoid about who they tell.
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Jul 31, 2014 21:52
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The Biggest Jerk posted:That probably even made them more justified in being paranoid about who they tell. Except for how the point of that entire mini was that keeping things secret and deciding things without consulting anyone left them super vulnerable!
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Jul 31, 2014 21:55
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Lurdiak posted:Except for how the point of that entire mini was that keeping things secret and deciding things without consulting anyone left them super vulnerable! Let's be honest, knowing the Illuminati, that's probably not the lesson they took away from the whole ordeal. And my point still stands that they probably felt any increased chance of the news getting out would be even more trouble. Keep in mind this is just conjecture, don't know if they ever explained why they didn't straight up tell everyone.
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Jul 31, 2014 22:05
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they didnt tell anyone because they are impossibly arrogant.
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Jul 31, 2014 22:07
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If the various stellar empires heard, they'd treat the whole thing like GVH from Arrested Development. "So you're making this huge deal and all you have to do to stop it entirely is destroy ONE planet?"
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Jul 31, 2014 22:09
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Yeah I really can't think of any of the empires or galactic entity that wouldn't destroy Earth. Hell, 616 is lucky as hell Galactus is out of the universe for now. It would be badass to see an incursion occur and Galactus is just bored off his mind on the other side "Oh hey this is my universe, about loving time".
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Jul 31, 2014 22:41
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Everyone hates Earth. That's why the Guardians are out there.
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Jul 31, 2014 23:18
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