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Slobjob Zizek posted:Okay, nevermind, I looked at the requirements. IE is weird. I know a lot of economists and math guys who could probably pass that exam -- so what is the point of it? I guess that's why in CA the exam is only needed to use the title but not to actually do anything special. Optimization is for everyone! I think it's more that there are certain fields that require a PE holder by law (so government stuff, public safety, etc) so they needed an exam for the IE guys.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:08
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There's a giant presumption happening in this thread. Everyone in silicon valley calls developers 'engineers' and not coders or developers. When people ask me what I do I generally say 'software guy' but I'm sure I have referred to myself as an engineer at some point. Why? Well, in the UK where I was working I was never, ever called an engineer nor would I ever have called myself one, because I studied computer science. However as soon as I moved to the USA I was (to other people) an engineer all day every day. Every company (all of 2, for 7 years) I've worked at here has called me an engineer. When I applied for a visa my title was engineer. When I applied for a green card through work it was engineer. My official job title contains the word 'engineer'. All of my friends at facebook, google etc are engineers. But no it's ok, it's my fault and I am desperately going to call myself 'engineer' while my company, visa (not that I need one any more, lol) and all that crap do not in any way say 'engineer'. WAIT NO THEY DO! But yeah my point is everyone else says it, we didn't choose it, it's just a thing, deal with it. And now the hovercraft dude will just quote me then quote Ayn rand again, in a total non sequitur.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:09
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Realizing dumb resume inflation is just that is well and good. Actually taking that dumb resume inflation title to heart and basing self-worth on it is hilarious.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:15
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CCrew posted:So the only argument is professional engineer exams exist? Are computer or electrical engineers considered engineers? They may just build PCBs and be in a state not requiring a cert. Computer engineers, as a subset of EE, may be PEs depending on if their work requires it. Plenty of them work in power generation, so you bet your rear end that they get the full licensure. Comp-Es and EEs that go into something like processor design still are required to pass the FE exam and get registered at that level. Their bosses or someone above them will typically have their PE in order to qualify for professional liability insurance. But the EE degree is seen as difficult enough that the IEEE evidently feels less need to regulate their use of titles (see also: radio engineer).
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Jul 31, 2014 19:16
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:But don't you understand, they deserve to be called engineers and architects because it's difficult work that uses a computer. Well if they have a degree from an accredited institution and two years of work experience in that field then the only thing between them and a PE title is an exam and some $$$. You seem bizarrely hung up on the PE like it's some magic shield when for many engineers it's a piece of paper that may get them a bit more money and a stamp of limited or no use. Civils and Mechanicals need it more but the way you describe it makes it sound like there should be hundreds of revokations every year from people who failed to uphold the grand high ethics laws contained in the take home test.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:17
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Cheekio posted:I'm pretty sure the entire field poo poo the titular bed when it decided to go with Computer "Science". ...why? I think it's pretty stupid that people equate computer science with software development (even though more and more CS programs include a software development component), but I don't see why the field of CS itself is improperly named.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:18
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Stanos posted:If an engineer's faults cause an accident or worse, they are usually taken to court and charges are pressed. For 3, possibly 4, different applications I worked on: Yes. 2 would be SOX related, 1 because I worked on a Meditech (pacemaker) product line possibly another due to the animal welfare implications if another project. We weren't sure of the European law would effect us or not. Now how many Mechanical Engineers have been arrested due to car recalls?
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Jul 31, 2014 19:19
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In my country a lot of software developers graduate through technical universities and, in the process, get the title of "engineer" after 3 years. After 2 more, they become "masters of engineering". Is it valid enough, or do you also consider it a travesty that should be stopped?
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Jul 31, 2014 19:20
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Best Friends posted:Realizing dumb resume inflation is just that is well and good. Actually taking that dumb resume inflation title to heart and basing self-worth on it is hilarious. Exactly. It's a marketing thing, as evidenced by the legal fight they had in Texas about exactly that. Canada had little dust up too over the E in Microsoft's MCSE, which is why it stands for Expert now. Snazzier titles also work as a method HR can use to improve worker morale. But drat, buying into it like that is hilarious, especially if you don't even know what your local engineering board is.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:26
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Xae posted:
Not enough.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:27
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PT6A posted:...why? Because it's not a science, it's an engineering discipline at best. Next question?
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Jul 31, 2014 19:33
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Zachack posted:Well if they have a degree from an accredited institution and two years of work experience in that field then the only thing between them and a PE title is an exam and some $$$. You seem bizarrely hung up on the PE like it's some magic shield when for many engineers it's a piece of paper that may get them a bit more money and a stamp of limited or no use. Civils and Mechanicals need it more but the way you describe it makes it sound like there should be hundreds of revokations every year from people who failed to uphold the grand high ethics laws contained in the take home test. PE signifies professional liability, before that your work is liable to your supervisors. Exactly how being a physician works before you have your license to practice medicine during the medical residency. Civil and Mechanical are the most important ones this applies to, and strangely enough make up the vast majority of engineers. Weird, huh? There are plenty of violations, actually. Your state board's newsletter probably prints them in the back, along with people and businesses prosecuted with title misuse or practicing without a license. There's also a "morality standard" that covers criminal acts; you can lose your license for getting busted doing all kinds of things unrelated to engineering, just like physicians and lawyers.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:35
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Cheekio posted:Because it's not a science, it's an engineering discipline at best. Next question? I figured that's what you meant, so I was hoping you might actually explain why you don't think CS is science. Also, if it's not science, then it's probably much closer to mathematics instead of engineering. CS is not software development or software engineering.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:39
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Cheekio posted:Because it's not a science, it's an engineering discipline at best. Next question? Really?
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Jul 31, 2014 19:39
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So again, the argument really comes down to one section of engineers has regulations and a certification process (with good reason) Rather than the whole iFartApp bullshit being tossed around, I freely allow anyone in this thread to argue if my job constitutes "Software Engineer" or not. I don't really care either way, I'm just curious what constitutes engineering work in this community's minds. If I read a convincing argument that I'm actively being a tool for using the term, I'll petition for a title change. -I work for an electrical engineering company, with customers both government and private. -My primary role is writing software controlling manufacturing and test equipment that directly tests our products against customer specifications. -One of my test systems generates a unique verilog file for each of our products, which determines how the CPLD controlling the product works. I designed the system, and base verilog. I did not design the PCB or related circuitry. -I report to the VP of engineering and am paid through the engineering department. -My title was arbitrarily chosen to my knowledge as "Software engineer" -CS at the school I graduated from includes an institutional test for all graduates to pass. My degree was in CS. -I was required to take physics 2, calc 2, and two math electives above calc 2 for my degree. I chose two higher level statistics classes. -I have no further certifications to prove I'm an engineer and know of none.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:41
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Gantolandon posted:In my country a lot of software developers graduate through technical universities and, in the process, get the title of "engineer" after 3 years. After 2 more, they become "masters of engineering". Is it valid enough, or do you also consider it a travesty that should be stopped? No one cares about how they do it in lesser, non-American countries any more than they care about how India certifies its medical professionals.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:41
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Cheekio posted:Because it's not a science, it's an engineering discipline at best. Next question?
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Jul 31, 2014 19:51
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CCrew posted:So again, the argument really comes down to one section of engineers has regulations and a certification process (with good reason) You sound a lot like a technician who works closely with engineers. Not that this is a bad or lesser thing, though there are a few in this thread who seem to really need that title and would be offended to be told otherwise. Many times it's a distinction without a difference, particularly in electrical engineering. A good question to ask is if you're featured in any of your company's marketing or business development material. Generally this stuff is assembled like a portfolio of resumes, typically with headshots and lists of qualifications. If not, they probably consider you more of a tech.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:51
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My official title is 'Forums Engineer' 
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Jul 31, 2014 19:53
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:You sound a lot like a technician who works closely with engineers. Not that this is a bad or lesser thing, though there are a few in this thread who seem to really need that title and would be offended to be told otherwise. Many times it's a distinction without a difference, particularly in electrical engineering. No names, but yes things I've directly worked on we're included in promotional materials, the verilog example is currently our company's "Next big thing". Why am I a technician? I'm the sole developer designing test applications, databases to store the information, and in the above example directly a major portion of one of our products.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:55
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People seem to take a lot of personal self worth in the exact title of their job. It scares me.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:58
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edit: prepost
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Jul 31, 2014 20:02
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As a Customer Service Representative, I know that not only do I represent Target every day, but Target also represents me. This is no mere cashier position, I'm ensuring customer satisfaction every day by balancing restocking, inventory facing, and transaction management.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:02
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CCrew posted:No names, but yes things I've directly worked on we're included in promotional materials, the verilog example is currently our company's "Next big thing". Why am I a technician? I'm the sole developer designing test applications, databases to store the information, and in the above example directly a major portion of one of our products. You're an engineer. You're not an accredited or licensed engineer. Lampsacus posted:People seem to take a lot of personal self worth in the exact title of their job. It scares me. An ABET degree or a license are much harder to get. Not having those things will put a ceiling on promotions in some fields.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:02
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Lampsacus posted:People seem to take a lot of personal self worth in the exact title of their job. It scares me. People like to define ingroups and outgroups. It scares me.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:02
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:People like to define ingroups and outgroups. It scares me. Personally I think we should get the thread back on topic. Anybody catch that Adam Curtis doc All Looked After By Machines of Love and Grace? I heard it contains the answer.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:06
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CCrew posted:No names, but yes things I've directly worked on we're included in promotional materials, the verilog example is currently our company's "Next big thing". Why am I a technician? I'm the sole developer designing test applications, databases to store the information, and in the above example directly a major portion of one of our products. Mostly because it seems like you're performing a supporting function to your company's electrical engineers. Technicians perform some pretty deep and vital work that many engineers aren't going to be proficient at; GIS techs are an excellent example. On the one hand, I'd say that you're not performing the circuit design that you rely on the engineers you work with to perform, and carry out testing which is a job techs do. But on the other you're designing testing methods which is a significant aspect of engineering work. Oh, and producing a major product of your engineering firm. EE is messy like that. H.P. Hovercraft fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 20:09
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Lampsacus posted:People seem to take a lot of personal self worth in the exact title of their job. It scares me. I was offered a chance to pick my title at a previous job. I went with "Viceroy of the New World"
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Jul 31, 2014 20:12
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ShadowHawk posted:I was offered a chance to pick my title at a previous job. I went with "Viceroy of the New World" That's small-time. More like Emperor of Known Space
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Jul 31, 2014 20:17
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Social Status from lowest to highest: Programmer Technician Software Developer Engineer Is that about right?
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Jul 31, 2014 20:23
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Lampsacus posted:Social Status from lowest to highest: Clergy Computer janitor Engineer Lawyer Politician Captain of Industry
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Jul 31, 2014 20:25
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I've got you all beat. I am a licensed engineer (multiple licenses one professional one technical) with a degree from an accredited program and my job title (which I did not pick) is "Captain".
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Jul 31, 2014 20:29
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Math is not a science.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:31
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Lampsacus posted:People seem to take a lot of personal self worth in the exact title of their job. It scares me. Yeah I noticed, when I was single, when I moved to the USA: When I met girls their first question would be 'what is your job' whereas elsewhere it was only question #3 or so. Strange how everyone in the USA seems to think the same way.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:33
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Slobjob Zizek posted:Math is not a science. No, you see it was confusing to Gantolandon and therefore a science. He's hoping to get a degree in not-shitposting someday but can't find any accreddited universities.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:34
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BrandorKP posted:I've got you all beat. I am a licensed engineer (multiple licenses one professional one technical) with a degree from an accredited program and my job title (which I did not pick) is "Captain". You've convinced me, I'm going to petition to change my title to Captain, that's the coolest.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:40
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Cheekio posted:No, you see it was confusing to Gantolandon and therefore a science. He's hoping to get a degree in not-shitposting someday but can't find any accreddited universities. When I do, I'm going to call myself a Posting Engineer, just to get more delicious sperg tears. Slobjob Zizek posted:Math is not a science. Yes, it is. Never heard about formal sciences?
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Jul 31, 2014 20:41
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Gantolandon posted:Yes, it is. Never heard about formal sciences? Math and logic are math and logic. They were developed thousands of years before the scientific method. Just because people like to tack on the word "science" to everything these days to make it sound credible doesn't mean everything is a science.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:48
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:PE signifies professional liability, before that your work is liable to your supervisors. Exactly how being a physician works before you have your license to practice medicine during the medical residency. Civil and Mechanical are the most important ones this applies to, and strangely enough make up the vast majority of engineers. Weird, huh? quote:There are plenty of violations, actually. Your state board's newsletter probably prints them in the back, along with people and businesses prosecuted with title misuse or practicing without a license. There's also a "morality standard" that covers criminal acts; you can lose your license for getting busted doing all kinds of things unrelated to engineering, just like physicians and lawyers. I'm well aware of these things and given the number of PEs the amount of revocations is pointlessly low. Modern computing has rendered the most obvious errors made by dunce engineers obsolete and ethics breaches are extremely difficult to prove.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:49
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Slobjob Zizek posted:Math and logic are math and logic. They were developed thousands of years before the scientific method. Just because people like to tack on the word "science" to everything these days to make it sound credible doesn't mean everything is a science. Would you say that so-called "formal sciences" don't deserve this prestigious name? Does it bother you that mathematicians get to call themselves "scientists" despite never having to deal with a resonance cascade or being kidnapped by an evil mastermind to develop a doom laser? Holy poo poo, it makes my blood boil.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:59
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