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Doesn't Swan state very early on that there are like 19 methods to stop an incursion? I'm a bit surprised they focused so much on the WMD approach. As geniuses, I'd have thought finding and documenting all the possibilities would have been a challenge they'd rise to. If only to make sure they had exhausted all other options before resorting to world destroying. poo poo, Reed should have gotten Valeria to do it, she'd have shown them what's what. Or even Franklin and his powers, because yeah, getting kids involved is less immoral than getting in a situation where you have to choose between billions and trillions. Still, in that context , I believe Namor was right. In the sense that once you're there and the only option is the one they had, you've made your bed and you have to sleep in it. You can't make weapons and somehow believe you'll never have to use them. There's no possible deterrence in this scenario, any weapon is designed to be a very practical solution to a problem. So yeah, I'd kind of hate Reed or Tony to be somehow judgmental of Namor.
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Jul 31, 2014 23:41
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To be fair, every alternate version of Reed was a totally evil incredible success, until they met 616 Reed, and tried to bring him on to the Council. Regarding Namor in the most recent issue, I'd say he's the only one of them that has the right to call himself a hero any longer. Faced with impossible odds, and the failings of his comrades, he made the hard decision to save the most lives, at great personal cost. I pity Namor, he's a hard man, capable of making hard decisions, something the rest of the Illuminati are only playing at. If he stays on the team, he'll continuously be cast in this role. I guarantee the next time there's a trigger to be pulled, it'll be him. Reed and Tony and Hank are all exactly the sort of character to let someone else get their hands dirty to keep themselves clean. I can see Banner and Black Bolt maybe, maybe being able to make that decision.
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Jul 31, 2014 23:45
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Valaria would be blowing up the other earths the second she could, she's still got the moral compass of a selfish child and Franklin is basically the infinity gauntlet omnipotent in our universe near powerless outside of it so he could move the other earth out of the way and then probably die.
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Jul 31, 2014 23:47
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Yeah I really can't think of any of the empires or galactic entity that wouldn't destroy Earth. Hell, 616 is lucky as hell Galactus is out of the universe for now. It would be badass to see an incursion occur and Galactus is just bored off his mind on the other side "Oh hey this is my universe, about loving time". You know if Galactic was here itt would be an all you can eat incursion buffet for him taking care of alt earths.
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Jul 31, 2014 23:52
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SirDan3k posted:Valaria would be blowing up the other earths the second she could, she's still got the moral compass of a selfish child and Franklin is basically the infinity gauntlet omnipotent in our universe near powerless outside of it so he could move the other earth out of the way and then probably die. Franklin or someone like him is the counter. He creates universes. Life and death. Valeria is basically a smarter Reed with the morals of Doom. She'd blow up the other Earth before they know there's an incursion. It's kinda messed up when the loving map makers are the most merciful group. They harvest a few supers and the Earth but they give the planet weeks to evacuate.
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Jul 31, 2014 23:54
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People keep saying 7 billion like it's a big number when compared to Trillions. It's less than .01% of life in both Universes. It's just insignificant. That's Namor's point. You'd blow up blow universes and kill everyone, to not compromise your morals? That's evil. That's such a piece of poo poo self aggrandizing piece of work that it's just unfathomable. Putting your morals above the lives of trillions , that's the whole point of what Namor is saying, you don't get to make that choice.
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Aug 1, 2014 00:05
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The Illuminati are now comic book villains? What an original and completely interesting idea.
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Aug 1, 2014 00:08
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Namor was right. Eh, I think that's the whole point of the Illuminati is that they are the necessary evil which in turn leads to them loving things up so badly all of the time.
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Aug 1, 2014 00:12
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Why didn't anyone just move the earth? Or like, move humanity to Mars? Or anything, really. Literally the only solution they tried was blowing things up.
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Aug 1, 2014 00:12
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They are not necessary and are dangerously incompetent. Even in Hickman's run. Which just seems to be repeating the Illuminati arc again.
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Aug 1, 2014 00:13
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Franklin or someone like him is the counter. He creates universes. Life and death. Valeria is basically a smarter Reed with the morals of Doom. She'd blow up the other Earth before they know there's an incursion. Good point. Franklin is the counter to Death. It's cool. He'd make a natural foe to Thanos.
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Aug 1, 2014 00:17
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Lurdiak posted:Why didn't anyone just move the earth? I'm pretty sure Black Swan said that only delays the inevitable. That and there is no way in hell that Marvel Citizens will ever do anything in their best interests.
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Aug 1, 2014 00:32
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goldenoreos posted:I'm pretty sure Black Swan said that only delays the inevitable. That and there is no way in hell that Marvel Citizens will ever do anything in their best interests. Yeah its just kind of handwaved away because if it was a viable option it would get in the way of the plot.
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Aug 1, 2014 00:38
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah its just kind of handwaved away because if it was a viable option it would get in the way of the plot. And now we're getting back to why I dropped the book. 
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Aug 1, 2014 00:39
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Calling it now that the last incursion will be 616 with Ultimates.  Just dropping into the middle of NA too, it took me a bit to realize the significance behind Black Swan's name and know it wasn't just a dumb goth supervillain name.
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Aug 1, 2014 00:55
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Hollismason posted:People keep saying 7 billion like it's a big number when compared to Trillions. It's less than .01% of life in both Universes. It's just insignificant. That's Namor's point. You'd blow up blow universes and kill everyone, to not compromise your morals? In the next issue, the Illuminati are faced with an Islamic Russian North Korean ultranationalist terrorist who's also immune to mindreading... dare they do what is necessary to save lives? "LISTEN HERE you loving liberals maybe in your 'perfect world' we can all WAIT AND WAIT for 'due process' but you know what??? if i come home one day and i find some SICK loving SCUMBAGSUCKER is raping my mother who is a child and also my wife while stealing my TV that i worked my rear end OFF for in a job i got on my own merits and i notice that this person is also a TERRORIST who is the only person with the abort codes for the nuke underneath the Pentagon and i happen to be be carrying a gatling gun i tore barehanded off an APACHE HELICOPTER then you're completely GODDAMN RIGHT that i'm going to do a loving BACKFLIP through the window and not SIT AROUND WITH MY loving DICK IN MY HAND while you mincing loving airbreathers build some kind of long-term agricultural society on a river delta somewhere that slowly necessitates the establishment of 'a codified set of rules and specialized sociolegal roles for adjudication and enforcement of them' because I DO NOT HAVE THE loving TIME" --King Namor the Sub-Mariner
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Aug 1, 2014 01:00
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First Bass posted:Calling it now that the last incursion will be 616 with Ultimates. Don't feel too bad, I've been reading since the beginning and at first I thought it was a reference to the Natalie Portman film. In retrospect it's one of the most obvious names in villain history.
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Aug 1, 2014 01:04
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I'm not getting it. What's the meaning to her name?
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Aug 1, 2014 01:10
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WickedHate posted:I'm not getting it. What's the meaning to her name? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory
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Aug 1, 2014 01:12
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I think the reason why blowing up Earth-616 isn't considered a viable option is because, yes, it would save their universe but it wouldn't do anything to solve the larger problem. The heat death of everything would still be getting closer and closer since incursions would still be happening in other universes. Blowing up every Earth would do it, but that would require a monumental effort and wouldn't erase the damage already done.
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Aug 1, 2014 01:24
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Plus we know that it's not just a thing that happened, someone is actually behind this thing. Why they haven't gone punch the Beyonder in the dick to solve everything is, well, beyond me.
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Aug 1, 2014 02:56
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ArmyOfMidgets posted:Plus we know that it's not just a thing that happened, someone is actually behind this thing. Did they ever ask Black Swan to take them to Rabum Alal or whatever?
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Aug 1, 2014 03:02
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goldenoreos posted:I'm pretty sure Black Swan said that only delays the inevitable. That and there is no way in hell that Marvel Citizens will ever do anything in their best interests. That's the most realistic part really.
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Aug 1, 2014 03:24
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Lurdiak posted:And now we're getting back to why I dropped the book. It's a malevolent force powerful enough to cause the collapse and eventual death of the multiverse, if there was such a simple out I'd be calling bullshit. If it was a malfunctioning Doombot I'd be calling bullsht.  "You have to play my game of death or die!" "Whatever, I'm leaving."" Curses I didn't think of that! Sdrahcccccciiiiiirrrrrrr!"
SirDan3k fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 03:37
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Not two books into the series Reed literally explains with diagrams why they can't just evacuate and blow up the Earth. Like in no uncertain terms the book straight up tells you "blowing up an Earth is actually just making things WORSE and is in no way a solution of any kind because each destroyed Earth brings the multiversal collapse closer to happening." Blowing up Earths is the ONLY option the Illuminati or any universe has if they want to stay in the game and have any hope of reaching and stopping the source.
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Aug 1, 2014 03:40
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Wait, Diagrams?!?!?!?!?! All complaints best be dropped then.
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Aug 1, 2014 05:14
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Hickman does really good diagrams though they're very pretty in a weird kind of way. Also, I'm pretty sure he draws them, I recall that being a thing of his that he really likes to draw diagrams or something.
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Aug 1, 2014 06:07
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Not two books into the series Reed literally explains with diagrams why they can't just evacuate and blow up the Earth. Like in no uncertain terms the book straight up tells you "blowing up an Earth is actually just making things WORSE and is in no way a solution of any kind because each destroyed Earth brings the multiversal collapse closer to happening." They should talk to spiderman or something. They could use more lateral thinkers.
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Aug 1, 2014 06:14
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"Alright, I'm going to need a really, really big webspinner."
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Aug 1, 2014 06:30
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"Hmmm...Aunt May is in trouble. The Devil took my marriage...what else do I have to give up?" ... *looks over at Felicia* "No. It will be being written by Dan Slott until the end of time. My dignity and quality as a character."
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Aug 1, 2014 06:55
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To be fair, if we account for bad characterization and writing, there was gently caress all to expect from Cap and the other Avengers in the first place as solution finders. These are the guys who 2 years ago thought: "hey, the Phoenix Force is headed to Earth and is coming for the mutant messiah. Let's show up on the X-Men's doorstep with as many people as we can and ask them to hand over the girl. That show of force will go smoothly. It's not like they've turned into a paranoid paramilitary force after seeing their numbers greatly reduced and us doing nothing to help them. Plus, we have Uncle Wolverine." So yeah, moral compass my rear end.
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Aug 1, 2014 08:19
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Gatts posted:"Hmmm...Aunt May is in trouble. The Devil took my marriage...what else do I have to give up?" Incursion pips up and it's an Earth populated only be clones of Aunt May and Gwen Stacy. Checkmate, 616.
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Aug 1, 2014 09:33
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Incursion pips up and it's an Earth populated only be clones of Aunt May and Gwen Stacy. The needs of the many Gwen and May outweigh the needs of the one. Programming in effect. Power and Responsibilities. ..must destroy 616."
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Aug 1, 2014 13:06
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Incursion pips up and it's an Earth populated only be clones of Aunt May and Gwen Stacy. Not only that, but the two biggest countries are ruled by Uncle Ben and Captain Stacy.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:15
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Incursion pips up and it's an Earth populated only be clones of Aunt May and Gwen Stacy. All the Gwen Stacy clones are married to Norman Osbourn clones and Aunt May is married to Doc Ock clones.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:58
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bobkatt013 posted:All the Gwen Stacy clones are married to Norman Osbourn clones and Aunt May is married to Doc Ock clones. But he only finds out after destroying 616 "Welp, that's the ol' Parker luck for ya!"
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Aug 1, 2014 17:00
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bobkatt013 posted:All the Gwen Stacy clones are married to Norman Osbourn clones and Aunt May is married to Doc Ock clones. I forgot to mention President of the World J Jonah Jameson.
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Aug 1, 2014 17:10
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Besides the derail. I think the debate on the morality of the Illuminati and Namor is a much better debate than Civil War Cap Vs Iron Man. Mainly because I think Hickman is actually trying to portray the positives and negatives of both sides of the argument, whereas Miller was making Tony into that Dudley Dooright villain.
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Aug 1, 2014 17:20
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notthegoatseguy posted:Besides the derail. I think the debate on the morality of the Illuminati and Namor is a much better debate than Civil War Cap Vs Iron Man. The problem with the morality in Civil War was you had a dozen different writers all writing different takes on the Registration Act. And all of them made it seemed to have different ideas. (JMS was probably the worst when he came to it. He wrote the Anti-Reg side in Amazing Spider-man as Cap and Co making a literal stand against mob mentality. While he had the Pro-Reg organizer, Reed Richards, come up with literally the worst argument for Registration ever. "Math says we have to do this, or the world ends." It also didn't help that he had the 42 drawn as some kind of Victorian era stone prison.) The morality of the argument was further screwed as 90% of the writers took this as some sort of opportunity to make strawmen arguments for the then GOP. As if Bush and Co would resign if Captain America punched Tony Stark hard enough. Since Hickman's the only person working on the Incursion stuff, he can afford to give both sides more even handed representation.
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Aug 1, 2014 19:35
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The Question IRL posted:The problem with the morality in Civil War was you had a dozen different writers all writing different takes on the Registration Act. And all of them made it seemed to have different ideas. (JMS was probably the worst when he came to it.) Oh no my friend, the worst, as usual, was Dan Slott, as he wrote the pro-reg side to be training children to be murderous soldiers and had their R&D department run by a literal nazi. He also had She-Hulk beat the poo poo out of Straw Iron Man while yelling at him about how dumb registration was and how it made him JUST LIKE DR DOOM  , and he had no counter-arguments.
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Aug 2, 2014 05:39
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