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 Vote A. I'm sure all Monternos will agree that these measures will undoubtedly benefit our Empire in the scientific department. And that much is the foremost desire of our party.
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Aug 1, 2014 07:11
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 13:34 |
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Is Science all the Monternos care for? The traditions of Rome, the culture of its people, the structure of it's government - shall that all be thrown away for slightly faster research? Are the decades of strife, revolt, unrest, and weakness worth slightly faster research?
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Aug 1, 2014 07:14
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Is there any chance that multiplayer could occur in this LP as it did in GRtW? I ask solely for Somalia, wealthy may she be. Someone must tend to the struggling souls in the (second) greatest nation on this (or rather, ~that~) Earth.
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Aug 1, 2014 07:14
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I want to do MP at some point, but the next few weeks are tricky schedule-wise, so it'll have to wait a while.
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Aug 1, 2014 07:22
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*leans back in her seat, smiling and laughing* I didn't believe that I'd live to see the day when this was even an option. I believed this would be something on the table a generation or two down the line. Let me first proclaim that the risks involved will be great. We will have to deal with the uneasiness, resistance, even open rebellion for years to come. But the end result is a Rome that follows in the footsteps of China. A Rome of equal to that of China. Perhaps in the future, a Rome greater than China. But beyond all else, a Rome that is modern. We will not truly be giving up anything Roman about ourselves. We will be perfecting it. We stand here now on a monumental occasion. Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears! This vote is not to bury Rome but to praise her!  For the future of Rome, I ##Vote A! StrifeHira fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 07:24
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###Vote A Progress waits for no one. Guns are the future.
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Aug 1, 2014 07:25
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sniper4625 posted:Are the decades of strife, revolt, unrest, and weakness worth slightly faster research? You raise an excellent question, Senator. And the answer is "yes," because research is where guns come from. And without those, we will have decades of peace, prosperity, and strength, which will all gradually fade away as we are surpassed by those who join the march of progress. And the strife, revolt, unrest, and weakness that follow that will be far longer than mere decades. ##Vote A Sinicize
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Aug 1, 2014 07:31
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StrifeHira posted:
 Traitor! Rome will follow no one, for none are greater! It may seem that these vile heathens have an advantage over us, but to say they are our betters? To say that our only path forward is to trod along in their wake like some whipped slave? Never! We must forge our own path, go our own way, to show this pagan filth who the real masters of the world are. Anything else is defeat, dissolution, and failure!
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Aug 1, 2014 07:33
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 Normally, I would be against this to the very end. But this is the age of pragmatism and good god I am sick of having my rear end kicked half the time. More research is more guns and we need more guns. ##Vote A: Sinicize
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Aug 1, 2014 07:33
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To confirm, people know we aren't getting better units, right? We'll be able to research better guns slightly faster, I guess, but that's about it. Not to mention that we seem to be ahead of our time in terms of the units we have now, so the military use will be limited for decades beyond the decades of strife it will take to Sinicize. VVV Thank you! Someone who talks sense. The second part, at least. We do not follow the paths of others, we form our own! sniper4625 fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 07:36
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##Vote B. I like the East-West role reversal, and Sinicizing now would end the fun prematurely. I want the Vicky part of the LP to see Rome dealing with all the poo poo OTL Qing Dynasty did. Plus, there is no reason for the Romans to want to upend their culture. That kind of thing only happens when a nation has been repeatedly beaten into the dirt, and from their perspective Rome is the strongest its been in a very long time.
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Aug 1, 2014 07:38
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We won't be getting their guns. We'll just be renouncing everything we have worked for for the sake of becomng just another part of the Ming Frontier. Let me emphasise that: This won't get us the better units. We'd still be inferior, and there is no point aping their ways if the benefits are this mediocre. ##Vote B.
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Aug 1, 2014 07:38
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##Vote A!, the march of progress must continue.
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Aug 1, 2014 07:46
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:
Shout traitor all you want, I'm the Douxes will be happy sticking to the old traditions. AJ_Impy posted:We won't be getting their guns. We'll just be renouncing everything we have worked for for the sake of becomng just another part of the Ming Frontier. Let me emphasise that: This won't get us the better units. We'd still be inferior, and there is no point aping their ways if the benefits are this mediocre. The government will also be reorganized and updated into a new Byzantine system of government. Better technology and better government are certainly not mediocre benefits.
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Aug 1, 2014 07:48
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##Vote B Sinicizing doesn't really make sense - the Empire has already gone through a great upheaval in how its bureaucracy and administration work. In my opinion, it makes for a better narrative for Rome to hang on to something that plays a big role in its national identity.
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Aug 1, 2014 07:49
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StrifeHira posted:
The reorganisation will cripple us at the time we are most vulnerable. In all honesty, the new system of government won't help us given our present situation. The costs far outweigh the benefits, and we will be set back in our progress. There is no guarantee that any government that emerges would even be Byzantine.
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Aug 1, 2014 07:50
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StrifeHira posted:
New does not always mean better (and especially if we're the ones forming it, lp's have taught me.). You would throw away our culture, our history, our language, everything that makes us Roman! Why did we fight against the Ming invasion, why did we fight against Da Qin and the Ming Successor States, why did we fight for one minute if we were going to surrender our Empire peacefully? While I certainly disagree with the stance my colleague took regarding the rebellious douxes, he is right, in this instance. We are Rome, not Ming. We must forge our own path, not seek to mimic others. Edit: Impy beat me to the punch. Well said, and to the poster above him. Sinicization does not make sense beyond the desire of some for progress at any cost. The people will reject this mandate, and rightfully so. sniper4625 fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 07:51
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If we are to be the masters of our future, it must be on our own terms. We shall build our society, one that mimics no-one else and builds on hundreds of years of our history, rather than on the experiences of a people from another side of the globe.
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Aug 1, 2014 07:58
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Voting #A just because I want to see all the rebellions and general chaos the process will cause.
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Aug 1, 2014 08:02
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China is simply better than Rome, and its example must be followed. A
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Aug 1, 2014 08:05
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The Black Chamber has cast its vote.
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Aug 1, 2014 08:08
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AJ_Impy posted:The reorganisation will cripple us at the time we are most vulnerable. In all honesty, the new system of government won't help us given our present situation. The costs far outweigh the benefits, and we will be set back in our progress. The time we were most vulnerable in recent memory was when the Regency Council for the late Empress Hypatia took over. We have the proven blood of Caesar himself on the throne, a woman, an Empress who has reconnected the Empire by land. The hard times to come will be temporary and insignificant, and most importantly at a point where the Empire is strong instead of where she is weak. Would it be preferable for this to happen 300 years down the line? Because progress will happen. It's only a matter of time. sniper4625 posted:
How much are we really throwing away? Will the statues of Augustus crumble, will every copy of the Alexiad burn, will the Hagia Sophia come crashing down because we choose to advance? We will still be Rome. We will be a stronger Rome. A better Rome. A modern Rome.
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Aug 1, 2014 08:17
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remove pork bun! REMOVE PORK BUN! Changed to ##Vote A Ghetto Prince fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 08:18
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StrifeHira posted:
It is true, the flower of Rome has bloomed of late. This proposed sinicisation will soon trample it back into the muck. We have the blood of Ceasar on the throne - Let's keep it there, not get it killed in the morass of rebellions and opportunistic invasions that will follow. We'd be putting ourselves through unmitigated disaster, and at the end of it, we'd be further behind than we were at the start, with even less chance of ever catching up. We cannot modernise by clinging to the past, that includes their past as well as ours. They're off moving the cutting edge forward, whilst we will be left working out how to put together their outmoded castoffs, and the overall outcome will be we remain just as inferior at the end as at the beginning, except we will have forsaken a position of strength for a position of weakness, yet another upheaval in the government with the one instigated by the De Mowbrays still fresh in living memory. One upheaval a generation is enough, especially with so pitiful and useless an outcome.
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Aug 1, 2014 08:27
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## Vote A. 'Tradition' is just another word for 'inertia'. A state which is content to coast along on tradition will find itself left behind by more forward-thinking states. Let the "Holy Romans" and the Scottish cling to the past, the strength of Rome is in looking towards the future. edit: ˅˅˅ So I do. Thanks for catching that. Caustic Soda fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 08:29
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Caustic Soda posted:## Vote B. 'Tradition' is just another word for 'inertia'. A state which is content to coast along on tradition will find itself left behind by more forward-thinking states. Let the "Holy Romans" and the Scottish cling to the past, the strength of Rome is in looking towards the future. Thiiiiiiiiiink you mean A there buddy. Unless you are voting not to "Westernize"? Because it kind of sounds like you are.
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Aug 1, 2014 08:50
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sniper4625 posted:To confirm, people know we aren't getting better units, right? We'll be able to research better guns slightly faster, I guess, but that's about it. I know we won't be getting different units. But 20% faster tech is 20% faster guns.
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Aug 1, 2014 09:01
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## Vote B Rome is and should remain a distinctly Western state, one that will lead its neighbours along our own path. We shall surpass the East on our own merits, not by bending the knee to Da Qin. Also, we already adopted the examinations and bureaucracy. How can we practically become more Chinese?
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Aug 1, 2014 09:13
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 ##Vote A We must modify our culture... Build a new new structure underneath the fabric of our empire. If we adopt the ways of the Ming we may be able to gain an edge over them while maintaining our Roman way of life. -Senator Maryam Osman LordGugs fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 09:19
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##Vote B We are not China. We are Europe. And as Europe, as the Byzantine Empire of Rome, we must go forward. To Sinicize would be to give that up and follow China's cue instead of forging our own path. NewMars posted:I know we won't be getting different units. But 20% faster tech is 20% faster guns. It's really not going to be that much faster. The Ottomans in EU4 are tech speed 125%, and unlike us have pretty much no way to get neighbour bonii whereas we have all of Europe, and they kick rear end nonetheless. And besides as sniper pointed out we are already ahead of time in military tech - faster research won't *really* benefit us militarily. So in exchange for basically nothing of much use, Sinicising will throw our Empire's culture and our unique-in-the-world narrative under the bus. I mean there's being a Monternos and wanting faster research sure but there's also being willing to act massively self-destructively because you've been seduced by China's stupid sexy research speed and the difference between the two on this vote is pretty drat blurred.
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Aug 1, 2014 09:21
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##Vote A!
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Aug 1, 2014 09:27
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 ##vote A We may suffer in the short term by adopting certain systems from the East. We may be assaulted by our foes, and the rabble may turn against us. We may find our halls torn with internecine conflict, and blood washing the streets of our city. But these things are only temporary. We have people enough and material enough and will enough to endure the coming tribulations, and emerge into a brilliant new era. And just imagine the efficiency that will be born out of this. A reduction in waste and poor planning, more centralized authority, and all the best that the world has to offer, while filtered through the lens of our own Western ideals. Once we've implemented this program, we will be set to become the best and brightest of all nations of this world. Not to mention all that lovely architecture that we can implement.
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Aug 1, 2014 09:59
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YF-23 posted:But there's also being willing to act massively self-destructively. I think you've nailed the attraction of A, here. Goons tend to be anti blobbing, we want to go full Denmark instead.
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Aug 1, 2014 10:31
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##vote A Rome has always looked east for answers. Constantine looked east to set up his second Rome, and must we look to our east for the riches the Ming Brought with them!
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Aug 1, 2014 10:46
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##Vote B Progress only goes so far, and such an incredible shift in society can only have an absolutely catastrophic effect on the stability and peace of the realm.
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Aug 1, 2014 10:50
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I kinda wish we had the option to go halfway, adopt some Sinacised things whilst remaining at our core Greeks. Basically I think it would be a shame to become China in togas. I'd much rather we be Romans in Silk Togas, changing what we need to remain moderately competitive whilst at the same time remaining the same imperial, expansionist, xenophobic, overly-zealous when the mood strikes, drunken, accepting, and tolerant contrarians we've always been. It would be a shame, after all, if instead of wine the drink of choice during senate sessions became tea. My suggestion being we compromise with Coffee with a shot of grain alcohol in it to make the debates pass more pleasurably.
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Aug 1, 2014 11:01
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BwenGun posted:I kinda wish we had the option to go halfway, adopt some Sinacised things whilst remaining at our core Greeks. Basically I think it would be a shame to become China in togas. I'd much rather we be Romans in Silk Togas, changing what we need to remain moderately competitive whilst at the same time remaining the same imperial, expansionist, xenophobic, overly-zealous when the mood strikes, drunken, accepting, and tolerant contrarians we've always been. Essentially, that's the status quo: We already made a shift towards China with the changes to our bureaucracy. This does nothing but cripple us, as opposed to keeping up thanks to our universities.
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Aug 1, 2014 11:23
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Scientific progress is all well and good, but we would no longer be Rome and would effectively shoot ourselves in the foot, as other Senators have pointed out.
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Aug 1, 2014 11:26
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##Vote B Rome forges its own path.
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Aug 1, 2014 11:35
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 13:34 |
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Cestrian posted:I think you've nailed the attraction of A, here. The main way A will destroy us is not in the gameplay effects though. It's in the narrative. We will consign ourselves to being a country within the wider Chinese cultural sphere of influence, whereas right now we are one of the two leading powers in our wider cultural sphere. Right now we're Rome, one of Europe's biggest baddest guys around. If we Sinicise what will we be? We will align ourselves closer to the east than the west, and as such we will turn into little more than the butt-end of the Silk Road, just another realm at the far periphery of the Middle Kingdom's influence. It's the choice to play second fiddle to China, because even if we then somehow surpass them it will only be because we follow their tune instead of holding up on our own merits. Something like that would be a hollow victory, and compared to that a glorious defeat is vastly preferable.
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Aug 1, 2014 11:42
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