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Obviously, the free-spirited woman will say things like "God is everywhere" and "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual." She will also know the ways of the flesh, or at least, know of the ways of the flesh. And she might believe things like "women can work too" or that "Women and men are equals!"
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Aug 2, 2014 14:18
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Could the studio get away with Life of Brian today without a major media firestorm?
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Aug 2, 2014 15:09
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Well they didn't get away with it without a massive media backlash back then so. E: I mean, a British studio would probably still get away with it, we really don't care about religion quite the way America does.
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Aug 2, 2014 15:34
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Could the studio get away with Life of Brian today without a major media firestorm? When South Park did the whole Jesus pooping joke, a lot of people were up in arms because they were making fun of Jesus, so no.
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Aug 2, 2014 16:28
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:Well they didn't get away with it without a massive media backlash back then so. Not even in Britain, actually!
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Aug 2, 2014 17:05
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Cemetry Gator posted:When South Park did the whole Jesus pooping joke, a lot of people were up in arms because they were making fun of Jesus, so no. On the other hand movies like Religulous that are actively antagonistic and mocking of religion get wide releases, one of the most popular shows on network television in the 00s starred a character that was explicitly an atheist, and one of the biggest new musicals of the decade is a deliberate farce of Christianity. Mocking Christians for having a persecution complex while simultaneously acting like it's still the 1950s is really silly.
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Aug 2, 2014 17:06
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Could the studio get away with Life of Brian today without a major media firestorm? If a group as popular as Monty Python existed today they could make Life as Brian. Sadly the closest to that is the book off Mormon.
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Aug 2, 2014 18:55
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...of SCIENCE! posted:Mocking Christians for having a persecution complex while simultaneously acting like it's still the 1950s is really silly. Yeah, the fairly recent expansion of Christian cinema from a relatively ignored niche market to a full blown mainstream cycle seems to be explicitly oppositional to a society that - in spite of the rise of the Moral Majority since the 1980s - really has undergone some pretty significant secularization. With Old Fashioned, for instance. There were always people who moaned about the decline in romantic standards in modern society, but most mainstream romantic films these days, even if they're superficially about 'true love' or 'finding the One,' are pretty uniformly apathetic to agape - unconditional love - as opposed to eros - which is merely the sense of being in love.
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Aug 2, 2014 19:15
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...of SCIENCE! posted:Mocking Christians for having a persecution complex while simultaneously acting like it's still the 1950s is really silly. No sillier than the second biggest religion in the world pretending it's in danger of being wiped out, I would say.
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Aug 3, 2014 02:17
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To a fundamentalist conservative, literally any change made in society that doesn't meet your approval is an encroachment, no matter how minor it may seem.
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Aug 3, 2014 02:50
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Their siege mentality is an essential part of their identity. Fundamentalists spout that same poo poo even when they control every aspect of a culture or government. They need to believe in their own immanent destruction or else they lose control. Just look at the way cults behave, or North Korea.
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Aug 3, 2014 04:02
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Jack Gladney posted:Their siege mentality is an essential part of their identity. Fundamentalists spout that same poo poo even when they control every aspect of a culture or government. They need to believe in their own immanent destruction or else they lose control. Just look at the way cults behave, or North Korea. They don't need to believe in immanent destruction, but more that they are surrounded by enemies. If you look at North Korea, for example, they portray themselves as inevitable victors of the world, it's just that everybody hates them because they are so awesome and Kim Jong Un is like the best leader ever. But don't worry, they'll beat back the foreign invaders. Honestly, it's really just distrust and possibly paranoia. The hard-core Christians just don't trust mainstream society.
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Aug 3, 2014 05:00
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If we're talking strictly cultural products like films or television or music the contradictions are obvious even in places where spiritual fundamentals are advertised as being held in high regard. Country music is steeped in revivalist Christian imagery, but there's no less objectification of women. Not that fundamentalists don't also reduce the woman to a fetishistic object, but leering shots of blonde country gals in cut-off denims are pretty antithetical to the very specific kind of objectification that occurs within an abstinence-only framework that denigrates lust. The conspicuous consumption of provocative clothing itself - while also loaded with gendered expectations - is also related to the expanding autonomy of women as consumers whose fashion is no longer strictly beholden to what the patriarch deems acceptable. This is also not fundamentalist. Johnny Cash and Bob Dylan both sang about the imminence of Christ's judgment. They also both sang about being Devil may care reprobates without a single shred of sarcasm. Yes, there's a culture of sustained repression in fundamentalist religion - but it's not repression of nothing. With film, Hollywood has never given the slightest poo poo about religion in any substantial sense. Even cats like Cecil B. DeMille who made their names with big budget, prestigious epics from The Ten Commandments to Sign of the Cross were routinely criticized by censorship groups for exploiting religion to load his films with salacious content that otherwise would be seen as obviously obscene and sacrilegious. Now, anti-Semitism always had something to do with the suspicion of Hollywood, but traditionally the way of engaging Hollywood was either censorship - not the presence of religious content, but controlling the absence of 'obscenity' - or attempting collective disengagement, such as boycotting. Was there independent fundamentalist content? Sure! But it was always marginal to a culture that, once again, largely ignored the question of the contradiction between secular and fundamentalist values entirely. Fundamentalists are ignorant, but they're not stupid. They understand that Hollywood is about the bottom-line. The significant change is that you see more fundamentalists earnestly exploiting modern technology, fund-raising, and production means to pose a direct challenge to the dominant narrative of spiritual apathy which absolutely permeates the vast majority of available content. For every Passion of the Christ there is Dogma. For every Son of God (which isn't strictly a fundamentalist film, though it catered directly to this audience) there's Noah. And for every Old Fashioned, there's Friends With Benefits and No Strings Attached and That Awkward Moment, etc., etc. Like ...of SCIENCE! said, it's silly to act like fundamentalists always have the deck stacked in their favor. The structural gains fundamentalists have made are undeniable, but the place you see it the least is in our entertainment. Hell, part of what makes the Moral Majority persecution complex so hilarious is that it is specifically because of the thorough secularization of society - and the liberal incentive towards ideological pluralism - that has allowed them to roll back the clock while secularists can only throw up their hands in exasperation and wonder why theocrats can't be as tolerant of us as we are of them. The problem isn't that our society isn't basically secular. It's that secularism isn't enough. Meanwhile, there is a show coming to Adult Swim called Black Jesus. Is this not the Life of Brian of our time?
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Aug 3, 2014 05:36
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K. Waste posted:Meanwhile, there is a show coming to Adult Swim called Black Jesus. Is this not the Life of Brian of our time? Aaron McGruder tends to be more miss than hit when it comes to satire, so it's hard to say until the show actually comes on.
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Aug 3, 2014 06:52
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raditts posted:Aaron McGruder tends to be more miss than hit when it comes to satire, so it's hard to say until the show actually comes on. It's not particularly relevant whether it's good satire or not. My question was rhetorical of whether or not there is any absence of mainstream content that is openly critical of or apathetic towards religion, or at least fundamentalism. If there is no absence, and if in fact apathetic/critical/secular content is over-represented within the culture, then this leads me to conclude that fundamentalist content is oppositional, rather than dominant. Changing sociopolitical structures are one thing; but expression through cultural products by and large is still increasingly pluralistic and, thus, secular. I'm not disputing what I see as yours, Gladney, and Hundu's accurate assessment of the persecution complex of the Moral Majority. I'm rejecting the insinuation that this delusion is not reciprocated by an apathetic dominant media culture as reductionist and historically inaccurate.
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Aug 3, 2014 08:03
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The fringe, no matter what it may be, is good ink. You'll never have a slow news day. We love cranks!
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Aug 3, 2014 13:16
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The fringe, no matter what it may be, is good ink. You'll never have a slow news day. We love cranks! Exactly. But exploitation is not the same as unconditional acceptance or cultural legitimization. "Why do so many Black Americans have such a chip on their shoulder about media representation? Aren't they over-represented relative to other minority groups? We're not racist; we love Black people!" The closest our media cultural comes to tacitly legitimizing fundamentalist morality is the evidence of television programs and films which involve unwanted pregnancy but don't treat abortion as a legitimate solution. But even in these cases, more often then not, the problem is total secular apathy to the empowerment of women and the ethical dilemma created by an unwanted pregnancy, as opposed to an endorsement of a fundamentalist spiritual morality. The Secret Life of the American Teenager only seems fundamentalist until you consider that it's contemporaneous with Knocked Up, Juno, Away We Go, and What to Expect When You're Expecting. These are not fundamentalist programs; apathy is not fundamentalism.
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Aug 3, 2014 16:07
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The whole point of this thread is that fundamentalists have established their own parallel culture and media. They don't engage the fallen world: they make their own bubble and stay inside. Jerry Falwell said a few years before he died that his side lost the culture war. What he meant was that they were retreating back behind the walls of their own communities to have their own universities, businesses, and media.
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Aug 3, 2014 18:00
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K. Waste posted:If we're talking strictly cultural products like films or television or music the contradictions are obvious even in places where spiritual fundamentals are advertised as being held in high regard... Everything you brought up about mainstream culture is right, and even the things who pay lip service to Christianity aren't really quite what the devout care to consume, and is flagrantly opposed to even some of the more basic tenets laid out in the New Testament. With that said, mainstream music, moves, etc. that pander to Christians are pandering to a very specific kind of Christian, and I hate to use this word but it's basically for apostate Christians who use Christianity as a group identity without really giving a drat about the spiritual or lifestyle elements. To them it's okay to sing about whiskey in bars eyein' up the gal in the daisy dukes. That stuff is for a southern crowd who basically can't have very many friends without paying some lip service to it all. It's not for more serious believers to consume as Good Wholesome Christian Content, and if Nashville and Hollywood think they're actually doing that, they're fools. The truth is, for the most part truly religious media is almost an invisible market to anyone who isn't interested in it. The stuff hardcore "keep the culture pure" Christains are listening to doesn't get much radio play, the movies they watch rarely ever get wide releases, which is why when they do, it's an insane bank-breaking affair. Evangelical media usually isn't good enough to pass the wide release bar. edit: The reason for this is almost all of the music is light instrumentation; chorus, verse, chorus, verse music with three chords, lasts 8 minutes, and is for worship. The lyrics can be summed up as "God is awesome" and there is very little variation amongst all the music. Some Christian artists are genuinely talented but are very much held back by the producers and labels who publish to them and find their audience. It's almost all very cookie cutter in a way the United States hasn't seen since The Beatles made music interesting. Riot Bimbo fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Aug 3, 2014 |
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Aug 3, 2014 18:34
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Jack Gladney posted:The whole point of this thread is that fundamentalists have established their own parallel culture and media. They don't engage the fallen world: they make their own bubble and stay inside. Jerry Falwell said a few years before he died that his side lost the culture war. What he meant was that they were retreating back behind the walls of their own communities to have their own universities, businesses, and media. Fair enough. I think I understand your point better now. I still think it's important to emphasize that parallel culture is oppositional, though. I think the Life of Brian tangent lead me to misread your and others positions as basically cynical about the religious critical/apathetic media, but I see now that that was jumping the gun. hemophilia posted:With that said, mainstream music, moves, etc. that pander to Christians are pandering to a very specific kind of Christian, and I hate to use this word but it's basically for apostate Christians who use Christianity as a group identity without really giving a drat about the spiritual or lifestyle elements. To them it's okay to sing about whiskey in bars eyein' up the gal in the daisy dukes. That stuff is for a southern crowd who basically can't have very many friends without paying some lip service to it all. It's not for more serious believers to consume as Good Wholesome Christian Content, and if Nashville and Hollywood think they're actually doing that, they're fools. By this same token, then, we could do with expanding the discussion of this thread, which is in general about Christian movies, beyond strictly fundamentalist fare. Sure, there's lots of art that's terrible because of its narrow, fundamentalist worldview. I have a feeling, though, that there's way more terrible art that is just showing out for a spiritual moral perspective that isn't genuine at all. Coming up in Catholic High School, for instance, A Walk to Remember was used by one of our theology teachers to teach us about agape.
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Aug 3, 2014 21:56
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It's not a big thread and I should probably read back, but I just want to ask real quickly: was Man of Steel brought up in this thread? I don't think it's a terrible movie, I find it rather good and interesting, but it was created or at the very least marketed with Christians in mind. Warner Bros. contracted Grace Hill Media, a firm specialized on targeting Christian communities, to do it's faith-based marketing for them and I find that very interesting because that's a part of the movie that's not been focused on at all where I live. Am I completely off mark for bringing this up in this thread?
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Aug 3, 2014 23:00
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When it comes to Superman I think the messianic parallels are all but inevitable.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:35
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True, but having them marketed strongly towards Christian communities is a new thing to me.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:43
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What's funny is that Man of Steel is, typical of a Superman origin story, specifically one of a messianic immigrant. And an immigrant of a colonial culture, no less. Zod and his terraforming allies, at least to me, clearly represent the perception of the U.S. as a neocolonial regime, but in making explicit his plans to build a new Krypton from the rubble and bones of 'Metropolis,' he also represents theocratic extremism. Clark represents the Islamic immigrant who was 'already here,' but who suffers retroactively from the ignorance of a few extremists who are literally the last vestiges of a culture that was consumed by its own ignorance. The smart thing about the movie is that, though Clark is ultimately forced to kill Zod, he is totally remorseful about it. He's not a part of the post-9/11 furor to route out 'Kryptonian' culture and, in fact, totally rejects the U.S. military's attempt to profile him. The movie is a rather traditional liberal narrative about how the virtues of a immigrant culture ultimately outweigh the potentially corrupting influence of extremism. It just happens to be slightly better at doing this. I'm not shocked that WB has attempted to capitalize on the messianic imagery of Man of Steel, but apparently it hasn't worked quite as well as they hoped with Christian critics: http://www.charismanews.com/culture/40058-is-man-of-steel-superman-christ-like-or-more-like-the-anti-christ quote:In fact, “he is the anti-Christ,” as the Rev. Thomas Reese, a Jesuit priest and commentator for National Catholic Reporter, tweeted after he saw the movie. In Man of Steel, Reese wrote, “Superpowers, not love, conquers [sic] evil. Bash the bad guy, don’t turn cheek.”
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Aug 4, 2014 00:26
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Those are some surprising reactions considering the people in Christian communities who (in my experience) are looking forward to the end of days. I had no idea that anyone was unclear on how that whole thing is supposed to turn out. Then again I grew up Seventh-Day Adventist so my experience may be a bit skewed.
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Aug 4, 2014 01:59
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raditts posted:Those are some surprising reactions considering the people in Christian communities who (in my experience) are looking forward to the end of days. I had no idea that anyone was unclear on how that whole thing is supposed to turn out. You're experiences are pretty skewed. The reality is that everyone's experience with Christianity is skewed by the area you grew up in and what you were exposed to. For example, you don't really get that whole "Yay, end of days" vibe from most Catholics. At least, there's not really a large percentage saying "It's going to happen soon." In fact, much of the Catholicism I've been exposed to is focused on doing our best today and living righteously. And it highlights the problem with Christian Media. There's no ubiquitous Christian front. There are your Rod and Todd types, sure. But there are also Christians who are on Something Awful. Stephen Colbert is a devout Catholic in real life. Van Morrison sung both about God and making love in the green grass with a brown eyed-girl. There's just no single Christian identity that permeates throughout our entire culture. There's a very specific branch of Christianity that this media is aimed for. These are the people who lack agency. God is responsible for everything good in their life, such as the pizza arriving in 30 minutes or less, or for your favorite movie being on the TV, and blame the devil for everything bad, like when your pizza doesn't have the loving pepperoni you loving ordered and explicitly asked for, or when your favorite movie is preempted because of a sporting event. That's why a lot of Christian media is very simple in this black and white way. God makes everything good, and if it isn't, then you just got to pray harder. But for a lot of Christians out there, that's bullshit. That's not the way they view their life. When I go to one of my friends, who comes from a very deeply Baptist background, for advice, she doesn't start preaching at me. She has yet to tell me that I need to pray more. Her advice is based on reality. Except when she tells me that I should get a girlfriend. Which inevitably turns into her complaining about how long she's been single and how she hasn't had a date in forever. It's like, how am I supposed to help her with... poo poo. I'll finish this post later guys. I may have had a revelation.
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Aug 4, 2014 03:53
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Cemetry Gator posted:But for a lot of Christians out there, that's bullshit. That's not the way they view their life. When I go to one of my friends, who comes from a very deeply Baptist background, for advice, she doesn't start preaching at me. She has yet to tell me that I need to pray more. Her advice is based on reality. Except when she tells me that I should get a girlfriend. Which inevitably turns into her complaining about how long she's been single and how she hasn't had a date in forever. It's like, how am I supposed to help her with... I hope you don't mind if I imagine this song playing as you drive down a rainy highway, intercut with her just getting in the taxi to the airport: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOWX2-l788A
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Aug 4, 2014 04:08
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I'm not gonna read this entire thread because why would I do that but I'm interested if there are any religious films with actual artistry besides The Last Temptation, The Ten Commandments or Ben-Hur? You know, movies you could consider to be some of the best of all time and have universal appeal. I don't mean movies with just religious themes but movies that are actually set in biblical times. Is the BBC miniseries from '77 any good?
DARPA Dad fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 23:58
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DARPA Dad posted:I'm not gonna read this entire thread because why would I do that but I'm interested if there are any religious films with actual artistry besides The Last Temptation, The Ten Commandments or Ben-Hur? You know, movies you could consider to be some of the best of all time and have universal appeal. I don't mean movies with just religious themes but movies that are actually set in biblical times. Is the BBC miniseries from '77 any good? Arguably Passion of the Christ. It probably wouldn't fit alongside the movies you listed, but at least it's far more of an actual film than e.g. God's Not Dead. Even more arguably, Life of Brian.
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Aug 5, 2014 00:31
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Pier Paolo Pasolini's The Gospel According to St. Matthew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEs4g9A9HGc Catherine Hardwicke (yes, the director of the first Twilight... and Thirteen and Lords of Dogtown) also did a pretty fine version of The Nativity Story.
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Aug 5, 2014 01:51
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I really enjoyed Noah, but I wouldn't call it "one of the best of all time". The retelling of Creation and the Fall is powerful, though.
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Aug 5, 2014 02:15
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The pinnacle of Christian music, and perhaps Christian media in general: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnzcZj_8DM0
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Aug 5, 2014 05:36
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DStecks posted:The pinnacle of Christian music, and perhaps Christian media in general: That's the least enthusiastic "Move your body/ c'mon y'all" I've ever heard. Beyond that... I'm just amazed that somebody can make music that is so tuneless and rhythmless that it defies all understanding. Like, how do you not hear the obvious problems. Also, I'm convinced the first verse is just a list of his sexual conquests.
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Aug 5, 2014 14:18
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There seems to be a whole mess of terrible metalcore bands that are christian and really popular for some reason. I guess the religion and the straight edge makes all the angry shouting and heavy music okay.
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Aug 5, 2014 16:16
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Probably more money in religious music in general right now than mainstream rock, sadly
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Aug 5, 2014 16:34
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Aside from that sociopath in As I Lay Dying who admitted the band exploited Christian imagery to sell records, I don't see a lot of Christian hardcore that's really excessively patronizing. Though I'm sure I could find it if I bothered to look. I used to really hate the trend in metalcore towards Christian teen audiences, but then I kind of came to this point where I was like, "Well, does the religious subtext really make the music any more loud or obnoxious than it already is?" People using aggressive music to be able to 'shout' their beliefs is part-and-parcel with the genre. There's some legitimately good Christian punk, Flatfoot 56 being a prime example. And if anything I've seen far more examples of metalcore bands that are just generically bad, while the Christian ones seem to actually try to distinguish themselves by, you know, actually trying to compose good music. There's tons of great music that's steeped in religious imagery. Why not heavy metal or hardcore? One of Black Sabbath's best songs is specifically rebuking its listener for incredulously dismissing religious morality.
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Aug 5, 2014 16:36
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hemophilia posted:Evangelical media usually isn't good enough to pass the wide release bar. What I always found really interesting when I was a consumer of Christian music, was that when the media was good enough, it was the Christian fanbase itself that actively attacked it for any reason it could think of. "Sounds too secular" "Not joyful enough" "Dwells on the sinful nature" or whatever reason you have. It's like Stryper - They got crapped on by secular media for being too cheesy and Jesus-y and they got crapped on by Christians for trying too hard to fit in with the secular world. I've read enough blogs and interviews by the guys in the band to know that they were really, really sincere and just wanted to reach as many people as they could with a positive Christian message. Also coming to mind is King's X, a band of Christians rather than a Christian band, where the lead singer admitted that he was struggling with homosexuality but he was doing right by god by remaining celibate, and trying to set an example for others like him. Didn't matter, tons of their Christian fans immediately ex-communicated them while their secular fans laughed at them for participating in religious nonsense. Basically you have to be a boring lovely fuddy duddy cliché to be embraced by the Evangelical fanbase, and it leads to art that just sucks.
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Aug 5, 2014 19:38
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DStecks posted:The pinnacle of Christian music, and perhaps Christian media in general: That's not DC Talk.
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Aug 5, 2014 20:45
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Cemetry Gator posted:I'll finish this post later guys. I may have had a revelation.
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Aug 6, 2014 02:19
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Old religious film really fascinates me. Here's a crazy public domain film from the 60's about a Communist takeover. If Footmen Tire You, What Will Horses Do? This is crossposted from the movie poster thread. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5o_LwqX77I And here's a highlight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6Ko926itZ4
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Aug 6, 2014 04:21
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