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Recycle Bin posted:I feel like everyone is singing the praises of 4e. Where the hell were you people when the game first came out? I remember checking out the 4e thread on SA and it looked almost exactly like this thread. If history is any indication, I expect that when 6th edition comes out the pro-5e crowd will be in full force. Christ, the much beloved Pathfinder grew out of 3.5e and hoooooly poo poo was there ever a wailing and gnashing of teeth over 3.5.... I think Trad Games had a different readership back then. Also, for the most part the forum posters here hate Pathfinder too. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Aug 6, 2014 |
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Aug 6, 2014 22:45
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edit: never mind, solved my own problem
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Aug 6, 2014 22:49
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Lightning Lord posted:I think Trad Games had a different readership back then. Also, for the most part the forum posters here hate Pathfinder too. Yeah, hang on, "much beloved Pathfinder?" Are we talking about some other forum or something? There are folks here who run and play PF (including several active games in TGR) and don't burst into flames or whatever, but "much beloved" is pretty drastically overselling things there. Even the folks who don't overtly hate it tend to drat it with faint praise.
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Aug 6, 2014 22:54
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Recycle Bin posted:I feel like everyone is singing the praises of 4e. Where the hell were you people when the game first came out? I remember checking out the 4e thread on SA and it looked almost exactly like this thread. If history is any indication, I expect that when 6th edition comes out the pro-5e crowd will be in full force. Christ, the much beloved Pathfinder grew out of 3.5e and hoooooly poo poo was there ever a wailing and gnashing of teeth over 3.5.... What? TGD was a haven for 4tards (  ) from the get-go.
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Aug 6, 2014 22:59
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I've enjoyed 5e because it eliminates the crunchy combat of 4e, which I didn't care for much, while streamlining some of the clunky numbers from 3(.5)e. I've been running through the starter adventure with a group that's mostly new to PnP RPGs and they've picked it up quite quickly (note: it was their idea to play D&D, so the name recognition does count for something). In the long term, though, I'm probably going to try and shift them over to Dungeon World or something similar.
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Aug 6, 2014 23:00
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Recycle Bin posted:I feel like everyone is singing the praises of 4e. Where the hell were you people when the game first came out? I remember checking out the 4e thread on SA and it looked almost exactly like this thread. If history is any indication, I expect that when 6th edition comes out the pro-5e crowd will be in full force. Christ, the much beloved Pathfinder grew out of 3.5e and hoooooly poo poo was there ever a wailing and gnashing of teeth over 3.5.... can't say, i only started reading TD beyond the occasional pbp a few years ago.
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Aug 6, 2014 23:03
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PeterWeller posted:What? TGD was a haven for 4tards ( Could have fooled me. All I saw was page after page of "It's nothing but combat rules! Way to ruin D&D, morons!"
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Aug 6, 2014 23:06
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Guitar_Hero posted:I've enjoyed 5e because it eliminates the crunchy combat of 4e, which I didn't care for much, while streamlining some of the clunky numbers from 3(.5)e. I've been running through the starter adventure with a group that's mostly new to PnP RPGs and they've picked it up quite quickly (note: it was their idea to play D&D, so the name recognition does count for something). Where I think 5e is going to suffer (compared to 4e) is that there isn't going to be a a lot of variance in what classes can fill what roles. At least in the early going, who knows, maybe they will re-release every 4e class after all. But right now, IME, the way they balanced the 3 pillars, there is ONE class who is the best at each niche. If you don't have those covered, you're gonna have a clunky, patchwork party. And the roles aren't as well-defined as 4e, so that makes it harder to figure out. Like, Cleric seems to be the best healer, where Paladin and others might be serviceable, they'll never replace a Cleric as an equal. 4e Leaders were all comparatively equally good at basic healing, and then their secondary roles set them apart; 5e doesn't seem to do this.
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Aug 6, 2014 23:10
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i haven't looked at the druid recently, but i got the sense they were pretty decent at healing. more so than the paladin at least. not that it alleviates your point per se.
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Aug 6, 2014 23:14
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treeboy posted:i haven't looked at the druid recently, but i got the sense they were pretty decent at healing. more so than the paladin at least. Yeah, I played the pre-gen Druid at the tail-end of Dead in Thay; it was set up as a "blow poo poo up" character, but still had shapeshifting going on (which I didn't end up using, so I can't speak to that in-play). That's really the slippery slope with spellcasting; you can change your prepared spells every day -- and that can dramatically change the way you play and the role you can fill. Classes without access to that "daily respec" are much more limited, and seem to lack enough features to offset that. Like, the Archery (and maybe Defense) fighting style is the perfect example of this; Fighters are the best at Fighting so they get Fighty bonuses that they can lock in and never change, and (in this case) doesn't expand the character laterally at all. It's still "I attack" forever.
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Aug 6, 2014 23:23
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Has anyone reviewed the Rogue's Archetypes yet? One of the things that really stuck in my craw about the Dead in Thay playtest was that a third of the Assassin's presented abilities were useless depending on the type of campaign. Poison Mastery posted:By 6th level, you’ve learned to use a poisoner’s kit to create three special poisons. You must spend 1 hour to create a single dose of poison, which is a tasteless, odorless, colorless liquid. If another creature ingests a full dose of the poison, it must succeed on a Constitution saving throw (DC 10 + your Intelligence modifier) or suffer one of the following effects, based on the kind of poison you created. Infiltration Expertise posted:Starting at 9th level, you can create false identities for yourself. You must spend one week and 25 gp to establish the history, profession, and affiliations for an identity. However, you cannot establish an identity that already belongs to an existing person. Thereafter, if you adopt a new identity as a disguise, other creatures believe you to be that person until given a good reason not to. So when I read this: treeboy posted:I'll try giving it another shot, but first time I sat to read through it the overall "gently caress it whatever" tone kinda grated.
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Aug 6, 2014 23:34
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Father Wendigo posted:Has anyone reviewed the Rogue's Archetypes yet? Yeah, for the GODC game I'm kinda... gonna be looking at other classes, maybe. The starting features are nice, but if that's what Assassin has to look forward too, eh. It's nice that archetypes always get stuff at the same levels, so that makes it a bit easier if you wanna swap things from other archetypes as a houserule. But again, this should be the job of the designers and not the DM. It's a lot easier for the people using the game, if each option has similar weight regardless of the game-style; otherwise it becomes an exercise in system mastery, and I really dislike the idea of that being mandatory in any system.
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Aug 6, 2014 23:40
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Recycle Bin posted:Could have fooled me. All I saw was page after page of "It's nothing but combat rules! Way to ruin D&D, morons!" You are extremely wrong. This was one of maybe three places online where you actually could discuss 4e without endless driveby shitposts and deliberate derails into the true tummyfeels of D&D and what Great Gygax's Ghost would have to say about healing surges.
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Aug 7, 2014 00:02
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moths posted:You are extremely wrong. This was one of maybe three places online where you actually could discuss 4e without endless driveby shitposts and deliberate derails into the true tummyfeels of D&D and what Great Gygax's Ghost would have to say about healing surges. Wasn't TG mostly just a pbp dump with the occasional discussion thread in like 2008?
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Aug 7, 2014 00:06
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It was a mess, but there were always discussion threads. It wasn't until the pbp and mafia got their own ghetto that discussion took off. It was a big to-do because people had the wrong ideas about interest in nerdgames, or if anyone would be interested in having opinions on them online. Missed this, but: Recycle Bin posted:I want to be excited that they came up with a clever solution, not pissed that a bunch of work went down the drain. So be excited that they defeated the insufferable goblin bandits of buttwood! Award them XP for clearing the encounter, roleplay out some plot advancement, and change the names and some keywords in your notes. In about a month or so, use that reskinned/recalibrated encounter for the notorious pirate half-ghosts of stinkwater. Congratulations, you're DMing 4e!
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Aug 7, 2014 00:19
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If you have archives, I think this is the first 4e thread (though its lifespan seems to overlap with the general ("3.5") D&D thread a bunch). So far it seems mostly like today's opinions ("here's to hoping they fix fighters") with a few outliers that either get shouted down ("fighters are Defenders? just like an MMO!") or are hilarious in retrospect ("Looks like Mike Mearls is on it! Great, I love that guy!").
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Aug 7, 2014 00:25
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moths posted:So be excited that they defeated the insufferable goblin bandits of buttwood! Award them XP for clearing the encounter, roleplay out some plot advancement, and change the names and some keywords in your notes. In about a month or so, use that reskinned/recalibrated encounter for the notorious pirate half-ghosts of stinkwater. Congratulations, you're DMing 4e! Which is more or less what I did. Again, let me be clear, I loved 4e.
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Aug 7, 2014 00:27
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Recycle Bin posted:Which is more or less what I did. Again, let me be clear, I loved 4e. I hate rituals, too. It's ok.
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Aug 7, 2014 00:30
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Recycle Bin posted:Which is more or less what I did. I must have misunderstood the part of that post where you said you hated when they do this because your effort was wasted and went down the drain? e:n/m moths fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 00:33
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Gort posted:Yeah, KotS was a big disappointment to me as well. They actually break their own encounter design suggestions (Irontooth fight is level 6 and eats starting characters for breakfast) in that module. I always got the impression that that fight was an attempt at placating the "4e is vidja game n players can't lose!" crowd, like the designers, in their insecurity, went "nu uh u can totes die!" As far as good modules, Last Breaths of Ashenport kicked rear end, aside from one really confusingly structured part in the middle.
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Aug 7, 2014 00:38
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Vanadium posted:So far it seems mostly like today's opinions ("here's to hoping they fix fighters") with a few outliers that either get shouted down ("fighters are Defenders? just like an MMO!") or are hilarious in retrospect ("Looks like Mike Mearls is on it! Great, I love that guy!"). Mike Mearls is the guy who wrote Iron Heroes, a 3.5 alterna-game that's all about exploring the design space of 3E d20 in the context of martial classes and experimenting with giving them lots of new stuff. It didn't always succeed and what it was trying to do, it was kind of clunky and not always balanced, but it was still a pretty amazing thing to see. It had rules for stunts and using the environment in combat, for climbing giant enemies and stabbing them in the heart, it tried really really hard to make feats and feat chains that didn't suck, etc. I'm gonna be honest here, my opinion of Mearls has always been that he never struck me as the sort of guy who the buck should stop with...Iron Heroes had a lot of neat stuff but it was more like a really promising first draft than a polished final product...but until the grand vision of Next became apparent I would not have pegged him as the guy to parrot dumb bullshit about Warlords shouting arms back on and leading the charge to nerf the Fighter's level 15 ability because woah now, recovering two action dice a fight? Slow the gently caress down there.
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Aug 7, 2014 00:41
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treeboy posted:I'll try giving it another shot, but first time I sat to read through it the overall "gently caress it whatever" tone kinda grated. Dead in Thay was intentionally grating, that was my 'DDRD-style' game. Mission accomplished. By the end of it I was openly cheating just to see how far I could push the system. (Spoiler: the module didn't actually call for a lich making GBS threads out Meteor Swarm and Time Stop! gently caress goons!) They still won. Holy poo poo was some crazy poo poo coming out of the PCs by the end. On the other side of the coin, I'm now doing a 5e game with a more narrative style, the wizard apprentices game, so read that instead if DiT is scary or you want to see a different way 5e can be ran. This one features a cute owlbear pet and a nice old teacher and I'm sure nothing can go wrong.
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Aug 7, 2014 00:58
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tbh the most striking thing about the old thread is that people were still printing out web content in 2007.
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Aug 7, 2014 01:04
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The world of seven years ago was a wild and uncivilized one.
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Aug 7, 2014 01:23
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petrol blue posted:Hmm, I agree it's an interesting comparison, but at the same time being on computer can cover a lot of clunky design - take 4e and mmos, for example (yeah, ok, a loaded comparison): a five-minute fight with ten PCs in an mmo becomes a two-hour one in a tabletop, so you need to do very different things with the design. LuiCypher posted:Somebody much wiser than me on the forums once told me that you pick your system based on the type of game you want to play, because every system excels at certain things over others. A Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 01:59
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So, having only read this thread, are the main differences between the leaked Alpha and the PHB: Transmuters can no longer literally create more gold per year than the 1849 gold rush, but can still raise the dead/do a lot of other things and nerfing fighters?
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Aug 7, 2014 02:07
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Jack the Lad posted:The Battle Master's level 15 feature, Relentless, has been heavily nerfed.
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Aug 7, 2014 02:12
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Clearly, superiority dice themselves have just been buffed so significantly that it'd be plain overpowered if you could get back more than one a turn!
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Aug 7, 2014 02:15
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Ferrinus posted:Clearly, superiority dice themselves have just been buffed so significantly that it'd be plain overpowered if you could get back more than one a turn! Yeah plus he can get them back all day. So really he has infinite superiority dice. Thats pretty broken IMO. Can you imagine if a wizard could have his spells back all day? I mean he can control the nature of the universe and he cant do that.
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Aug 7, 2014 02:22
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FWIW, I'm pretty positive about 5e so far. Have not actually run game yet, but planning to "soon". (Pretty much a day or so after we get books.) One of my friends has been running one for quite a while off playtest materials. I have been playing since early 1e (I remember Unearthed Arcana being new), and I have pretty much all the 3e and 3.5e books, I have most of Pathfinder (PDFs, mostly, because I was starting to run out of shelf space). Have played 3E, 3.5E, and PF games up through epic levels. I am liking 5e a lot, and I don't think it's all that much like 3e. What I regard as the essential characteristic of 3/3.5/PF is a fairly structured model for everything. Creatures have types, which have rules. Bonus have types, and there are stacking rules which are mostly just "only biggest bonus of each type" except when they're not. Most of the rules try to be at least a bit general, and have lots of ways for you to tie things in. So we end up with really weird stuff, like how swift actions are faster than move actions, but you can end up in a situation where you can take a move action but not a swift action. All the complicated stuff like non-weapon proficiencies and thief skills got rolled into "skill points", and a lot of build options ended up as feats. And that has been a thing I've mostly quite enjoyed for a long time. I enjoy the system-mastery aspects of tracking down obscure magic item or spell choices that give a different kind of bonus to a thing. It's entertaining. It's also a lot of work. In our epic-level PF group, the party samurai can take *five minutes* to resolve a round which consists of "take a full attack". Because we have at least a half dozen buffs that we may or may not have up, we have to check where he is with respect to various people to see which buffs he still has, he has abilities he may or may not be using, and then there are a lot of dice. A lot, a lot, of dice. He's broken 1300 damage a couple of times. And basically, that's what I'm sort of finding appealing about 5e. I like the idea of a game that's a lot simpler to just sit down and play. 4e was in some ways better at a lot of this than the 3e/PF set, but the significant divergence in play style, and the shift away from traditional D&D resource (read: spell) management didn't really work well for a lot of the people I might want to game with. Net result: 5e offers me a hugely cleaned up and streamlined set of rules compared to, say, 1e or 2e. It is much simpler than 3e and friends, and I don't necessarily object to that. Also, what I've read of it so far has more flavor and less system than 3e. I like the idea of "wands" not necessarily being just a fixed supply of castings of a single spell which works exactly like that spell always does; the staff/wand/potion stuff in 3e made magic items a lot more generic and a lot less fun, for me. So I'll probably play it, and I imagine I'll probably like it. But admittedly, I basically like nearly any game, because I can generally find people to play a game with who are aware that the purpose of the activity is to have fun, and that makes most of the difference. Certainly more than choice of rules system usually does.
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Aug 7, 2014 02:29
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Ferrinus posted:Clearly, superiority dice themselves have just been buffed so significantly that it'd be plain overpowered if you could get back more than one a turn! Lunging forward as if to hit someone slightly further away is exhausting and I personally cannot do it more than a few times before I need a nap 
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Aug 7, 2014 02:29
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Y'know, the trollers actually have a point - this is becoming just another grog tear-down thread at this point. Has there been enough released so far to start houseruling it into a Real Game? I'm a big fan of upcycling, and Mearls supports me on this! e: Seebs - genuine question here, has your group tried systems other than D&D? What are your thoughts on them? Just wondering since your post seemed to suggest you defaulted to D&D. petrol blue fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 02:31
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Didn't someone put up a graph of how it would take forever for the Champion to catch up with the Battlemaster's damage? Maybe, I dunno, someone saw that and decided one fighter build shouldn't get so far ahead of another one. Maybe they also saw the graph of cantrip damage vs fighter damage and reduced the scaling of cantrips. I just noticed that reading through Basic.
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Aug 7, 2014 02:32
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Jack the Lad posted:The Battle Master's level 15 feature, Relentless, has been heavily nerfed.
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Aug 7, 2014 03:06
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kingcom posted:Yeah plus he can get them back all day. So really he has infinite superiority dice. Thats pretty broken IMO. Can you imagine if a wizard could have his spells back all day? I mean he can control the nature of the universe and he cant do that. On that topic, as of Basic Wizards can get half their level's worth of spell levels (rounded up) back once a day after a short rest with "Arcane Recovery". A level 11 Wiz gets an extra free level 6 spell (or, two level 3 spells, three level 2 spells, etc.) which the Cleric and the leaked beta Eldritch Knight didn't . Thankfully level 7+ slots are exempt, but still... Does anyone with PHB access know if the other spellcaster classes (or multiclasses?) get extra spell slot recharges? edit: Chaltab posted:Wait... when you roll initiative--? So you only get them at the start of an encounter and are SOL for the rest of the fight? Holy gently caress. That's just sad. ThaGhettoJew fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 03:15
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Chaltab posted:Wait... when you roll initiative--? So you only get them at the start of an encounter and are SOL for the rest of the fight? You are poo poo out of luck for the rest of the Campaign.
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Aug 7, 2014 03:21
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I am thinking I might houserule that feature to either give them on at the start of each of their turns, or maybe just give them their full number of dice when they roll initiative instead of 1 and without requiring them to be out of them for it to trigger.
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Aug 7, 2014 03:25
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Nu-uh! "Innervate" (School transmutation; Level cleric 2, druid 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2) grants a fighter an initiative reroll.
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Aug 7, 2014 03:27
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Some of these rules, especially the last minute nerfs, make the game feel really slipshod. Like, in trying to placate the various grognard factions they seem to have no idea how the math works out for anything other than a d20. On the other hand, all those complaints about ADEU and how it seemed as though every class has a spell list... They solve it by giving nearly every class, including non-arcane combatants like Paladins and Rangers, an ACTUAL spell list. There's a HUGE difference in 'recover two at the start of a round' and 'recover one at the start of an encounter'. That they could miss some supposed balance issue (or change their minds that drastically between Alpha and publication) doesn't bode well. That's the sort of poo poo I'd expect from a Paizo playtest, not WOTC.
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Aug 7, 2014 03:41
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Chaltab posted:Wait... when you roll initiative--? So you only get them at the start of an encounter and are SOL for the rest of the fight? The default timing to get your dice back is 'after a short rest'. But yes, if you have used them all up than you only get one an encounter until you rest. The thread already discussed the duration of short rests being bizarre at length.
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Aug 7, 2014 03:58
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