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We were the founders of the Orthodox Church, and now we want to abandon it? What has Rome come to? ##Vote A
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Aug 7, 2014 05:42
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| # ? Jun 2, 2024 18:32 |
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sniper4625 posted:
One might says that Christianity in its entirety had an anti-authoritarian nature once. It adapts. Besides, the bogomilism of the now is not entirely identical to that of then - while the Demiurge's creation is perhaps flawed it is not necessarily evil, not by all interpretations. I would say that we should encourage this line of things - the material world should be brought as close to the spiritual world as it can, for while flawed it is still a thing of beauty. Do unto others as you would do unto them, do not covet, work hard, pay taxes.
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Aug 7, 2014 05:48
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I've been asked outside the thread if Bogomilism has any mechanics besides its bonuses, so I might as well answer that here, too. It uses the fervor mechanics, since I'm not good enough at modding to try my hand at creating a unique religious mechanic. Since this is my first real game of EU4 since before fervor existed, I'm not even really sure how it works, so if we convert to Bogomilism we can look forward to that fun adventure.
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Aug 7, 2014 05:57
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##Voting A
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Aug 7, 2014 06:01
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B!
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Aug 7, 2014 06:07
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Rincewind posted:I've been asked outside the thread if Bogomilism has any mechanics besides its bonuses, so I might as well answer that here, too. Adventure sounds like a good cause for B, if you ask me. ##Vote B
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Aug 7, 2014 06:08
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 I am disappointed that a fellow leader of the Coalition for Roman Stability would see fit to encourage quite the opposite by embracing a heretical faith. 
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Aug 7, 2014 06:12
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sniper4625 posted:How can it form along Enlightenment lines when we haven't had the Enlightenment yet? This really seems like something more suited to the end-game, or perhaps V2. I don't expect it to happen soon. Wouldn't be bothered, half the fun of these games is weird alternate history poo poo, but I see things at the moment as more long-term groundwork.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:18
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HiHo ChiRho posted:Alright dude relax. Forgive me for trying to debate statements you made in a paradox LP thread. I promise not to ever again disparage your precious not really statement statements. Hey, I'm fine to debate or discuss things I say in the thread, I'm just not approaching this from the same in-character perspective you seemed to have. Maybe I misunderstood you. I just wanted to make clear that my vote for B is less about consistency with principles I hold or present myself as holding and more about it looking fun/interesting. GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 06:24
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##Vote A
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Aug 7, 2014 06:30
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Rejected Fate posted:One might says that Christianity in its entirety had an anti-authoritarian nature once. It adapts. Then why bother with Bogomilism of all heretical creeds. The Bogomils are the worst sort of peasant. They have rejected the proper relationship between landlord and tenant, or apprentice and master. We Romans are civilized, urban people. Since the time of Diocletian, these people have been tied to the countryside. This is proper. They cannot hope to be their own masters. Remember, most of the people are still faithful to the true, unbroken church of Christ. The educated Roman peoples must guide the peasantry along the steady path to Heaven. GunnerJ posted:Hey, I'm fine to debate or discuss things I say in the thread, I'm just not approaching this from the same in-character perspective you seemed to have. Maybe I misunderstood you. I just wanted to make clear that my vote for B is less about consistency with principles I hold to present myself as holding and more about it looking fun/interesting. I'm doing my best to be a classist aristocratic snob. Let's accelerate this thing.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:30
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Dire Wombat posted:I'm doing my best to be a classist aristocratic snob. Let's accelerate this thing. The thing of it is that staying Orthodox follows the same pattern of preserving throne-and-altar tradition at all costs, mostly the cost of anything resembling a place modern people would want to live, that happens in so many Paradox LPs: Hohenzollern, Jerusalem, even Flamboyant Schemers has stuck to Catholicism at an atrocious cost. I don't think accelerationism works better in goon Paradox LPs than in reality. Because "For the Emperor!" I guess.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:39
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GunnerJ posted:The thing of it is that staying Orthodox follows the same pattern of preserving tradition at all costs, mostly the cost of anything resembling a place modern people would want to live, that happens in so many Paradox LPs: Hohenzollern, Jerusalem, even Flamboyant Schemers has stuck to Catholicism at an atrocious cost. I don't think accelerationism works better in goon Paradox LPs than in reality. Because "For the Emperor!" I guess. Counterpoints: Hansa, Bavaria, Azerbaijan (tolerance  ) even this very LP. Probably others that I didn't follow. Brazil? Was that one nice? I don't remember. Point is, Goons don't always go hard authoritarian in these things.Also I don't think a modern person would want to live in any of these societies, no matter how liberal or innovative they were. It's still the middle of the 16th century after all.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:41
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sniper4625 posted:Counterpoints: Hansa, Bavaria, even this very LP. Probably others that I didn't follow. Brazil? Was that one nice? I don't remember. Point is, Goons don't always go hard authoritarian in these things. Sure, but they don't go authoritarian when they try things other than clinging tightly to the grandeur of throne and altar. The Hansa was a republic to begin with and adopted Reformed, for example. I don't remember many details of how the Bavaria LP started, but it seemed like people were interested in seeing a cultural approach to power from the start. What we have in the place of Reformed here is some kind of anarchic Gnostic sect and that's too good to pass up. Staying Orthodox is exactly in line with the authoritarian traditionalist throwback script. edit: quote:Also I don't think a modern person would want to live in any of these societies, no matter how liberal or innovative they were. It's still the middle of the 16th century after all. Well, I'm thinking about the endgame here. Holding on tight to the old religion because it's the one true faith, the faith of our awesome emperors, drat it! is one step on that road because it's a vote for staying a 16th century state, as much as possible. GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 06:46
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##Vote B Fervor is the most interesting mechanic around.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:49
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Sticking to the whole Sainted Emperor thing is a pretty clear step on the road to maintaining autocracy, yeah. Also it is what France is doing.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:50
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GSD posted:Sticking to the whole Sainted Emperor thing is a pretty clear step on the road to maintaining autocracy, yeah. Sainted Emperors and the like can be addressed at an Ecumenical Council. You don't need to throw the entire thing away to reform it, not when the stakes are as high as they are.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:51
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Bavaria never got rid of its vestigial monarchy, though. I did end up consigning the last Kaiser I actually talked about (this gentleman) to an asylum and never brought up the monarchy again, so they had clearly fallen on rough times, but the SGF ended that LP as a nominal monarchy struggling with the contradiction of socialism at home and militarism abroad, declining influence in the international system only offset by its rivals' status as smoking heaps of rubble. BavariaLP was a mixed bag ending for SGF, and towards the end we only avoided the fascist route by a razor's edge.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:53
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I was so disappointed Bavaria didn't end up going fascist. It would have been the perfect ending to a whole LP of voters generally trying to be nice and liberal.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:55
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sniper4625 posted:Sainted Emperors and the like can be addressed at an Ecumenical Council. You don't need to throw the entire thing away to reform it, not when the stakes are as high as they are. That is a huge chunk of what the Orthodox church stands for by this point. Also, I would expect any Ecumenical Council to go full Counter-Reformation, reforming some minor things but becoming more of a monster in the end, not something more benevolent.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:55
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sniper4625 posted:Sainted Emperors and the like can be addressed at an Ecumenical Council. You don't need to throw the entire thing away to reform it, not when the stakes are as high as they are. Well, if high stakes are your concern, staying Orthodox will increase the strength of Discordianism. Bogomilism is more interesting but will decrease Discordian pressure, making the status quo besides religion easier to maintain in the sense that we don't get to press The Button so soon.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:57
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Sindai posted:I was so disappointed Bavaria didn't end up going fascist. It would have been the perfect ending to a whole LP of voters generally trying to be nice and liberal. Well, we already had one LP where goon bungling sent a German monarchy sailing straight into fascism. (Or at least one that I remember, anyway.)
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Aug 7, 2014 07:11
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Sindai posted:I was so disappointed Bavaria didn't end up going fascist. It would have been the perfect ending to a whole LP of voters generally trying to be nice and liberal. It was seriously tempting when the goons decided to squander all good will by making the final vote that SGF spend the last twenty years of the game at constant war utterly destroying all its continental rivals. We squared the circle and became a Kaiserreich-esque militarist bombastic warmonger abroad and a welfare state at home, but I think SGF's internal contradictions weren't going to leave it long for the world.
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Aug 7, 2014 07:16
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##Vote B
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Aug 7, 2014 07:39
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GunnerJ posted:Well, if high stakes are your concern, staying Orthodox will increase the strength of Discordianism. Bogomilism is more interesting but will decrease Discordian pressure, making the status quo besides religion easier to maintain in the sense that we don't get to press The Button so soon. Switching away from Orthodoxy plunges us into massive religious turmoil, because for all our toleration, the vast, vast majority of our provinces are Orthodox and have been for more than a thousand years. Suddenly branding those people heretics and purging them with zeal and fervor? It will make the Peasant's War look like a walk in the park. If we go Bogomilist or Sunni, we are handing Rome to the Discordians. Stay Orthodox and we have a fighting chance.
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Aug 7, 2014 07:40
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 Et tu? How disgusting. You, the leader of the New Marians, the supposed representative of our military in the Senate, have stooped this low? You are a coward, to fling your weapons down out the sound of screeching mob. You are a traitor to every soldier who has died for Orthodoxy, Roman or not, from this spat with Da Qin to the Papal Wars and the Ming invasion! You are no better than the Pope, no better than Chang! But then, at least they follow the one God. You would worship two, pagan. You would use our military to oppress provinces that have been loyal for centuries! May your soldiers abandon you, may they stab you in the back! Die screaming, heathen! Lord Cyrahzax fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 07:47
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AJ_Impy posted:If we go Bogomilist or Sunni, we are handing Rome to the Discordians. Stay Orthodox and we have a fighting chance. Bogomilism is explicitly the option that "substantially" weakens the Discordians. So yeah, you have that backwards according to the actual update!
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Aug 7, 2014 07:53
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GSD posted:Bogomilism is explicitly the option that "substantially" weakens the Discordians. So yeah, you have that backwards according to the actual update! My associate is a bit mixed up. The Discordians won't become more powerful, but our Empire still has a high chance of collapsing outright. You think these rebellions are bad? You think the peasants have been ferocious? Imagine when the Empress converts, when the Empire all but declares war on itself! The Orthodox faithful will not let filth like you murder their religion. They will fight and fight until the cowardly traitors of the Senate are dead, until an Orthodox Emperor sits on the throne, until the Bogomilist scum are exterminated! Even then, our enemies will not be idle. The heathens would serve us up on a silver platter. Now is not the time to oppress the loyal, but to band together under a faith that has been ours for centuries! For us to fight, to win, and show the world the one true faith!
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Aug 7, 2014 07:59
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AJ_Impy posted:Switching away from Orthodoxy plunges us into massive religious turmoil, because for all our toleration, the vast, vast majority of our provinces are Orthodox and have been for more than a thousand years. Suddenly branding those people heretics and purging them with zeal and fervor? I think that this is not quite an accurate reading of the Bogomilist outcome, since Rincewind has described Bogomilism as not really giving too much of a crap about heresy: quote:To modern Bogomilists, the figure of the Demiurge is a much more ambiguous figure. Some still identify it with Satan, but some argue that the Demiurge should be held in high esteem, since creation needs both the material and the spiritual to be whole, and there are other sects that hold nearly every conceivable opinion in between these two extremes. So, yeah, the large number of remaining Orthodox will be heretics by game mechanics, but it seems more likely that instability will come in the form of a Bogomilist regime having to put down Orthodox zealots launching reactionary revolts than actively going out of its way to purge Orthodox believers. Why would the existing practices of toleration be swept aside under a religion that is basically "eh, whatever do what you want" as far as dogma goes, would they not be more likely to take the stance that Orthodox followers can believe what they want so long as they don't try to set up an oppressive church hierarchy? (Maybe this is something I don't get about the zeal mechanic?) AJ_Impy posted:If we go Bogomilist or Sunni, we are handing Rome to the Discordians. Stay Orthodox and we have a fighting chance. ...as long as it doesn't bump Discordian pressure up too far. quote:##Vote B to convert to Bogomilism. You know, maybe those peasants have a point, and the Church hierarchy really does need to go. This will substantially lower Discordian pressure for the next few sessions, give us a big pile of ducats, and be popular among the peasants. On the other hand, we'll have to deal with huge swaths of the empire suddenly being heretics. Still, Bogomilism is pretty cool. They inspired the Cathars, you know! Everyone who plays Paradox games loves Cathars. The peasants, i.e., the vast majority of the population, seem to favor Bogomilism because they hate the church hierarchy. That's why B lowers Discordian pressure: it is a sop to the common desire for a less authoritarian religion. Maintaining that authoritarian religion will piss them off. My point here is that neither of these options is inherently "safer" than the other. B provokes religious revolts from Orthodox holdouts, A will rile up the (reminder: basically triumphant in their last revolt) peasants more and get Discordians closer to partytime. But, hey, good to know I win either way. GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 08:03
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:
The divisions of hierarchy do not strength, they divide and break down. A peasantry of slaves has no stake in the state. They know only the cruelty we inflict upon them. The Patriarch makes us the enemy of our subjects. We must slay him and set them free. Bogomilism is already wildly popular with the peasantry. With the destruction of church hierarchy, they will be more tied to our nation than ever. The hierarchies of our past do nothing but hold us back. They are chains not armor.
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Aug 7, 2014 08:07
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sniper4625 posted:
Lord Cyrahzax posted:
 I do what I do for many reasons, all of which are my own and shall remain so.
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Aug 7, 2014 08:09
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GSD posted:The divisions of hierarchy do not strength, they divide and break down. A peasantry of slaves has no stake in the state. They know only the cruelty we inflict upon them. The Patriarch makes us the enemy of our subjects. We must slay him and set them free. Cruelty? What do the Bogomil dogs know of cruelty? They certainly don't know the cruelties that await them in foreign conquest, the cruelty of seeing your ancient and righteous faith destroyed! They are nothing but rabid raiders who think we will give them license to murder anyone they please if they sound pious enough! Naive fool! NewMars posted:
Bastard. You can't even defend yourself! I know your reason: you are a simpering, pathetic coward, unwilling to defend his people when they need him most! *spits on NewMars*
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Aug 7, 2014 08:18
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##Vote B Because Fervor is an interesting mechanic.
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Aug 7, 2014 08:19
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:
Believe it or not, the army is not led by the Patriarch. The legions can work just as well without his satanic blessings. Also, judging by our most recent wars, more Roman deaths are involved in our offensive wars. Our defensive ones tend to simply end in surprisingly minor indemnities to one side or the other.
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Aug 7, 2014 08:23
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:
Come on, don't spit on me. Show some dignity, senator.
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Aug 7, 2014 08:29
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NewMars posted:
Dignity? A man who won't fight heretic scum tells me to show dignity? *spits phlegm at NewMars, a filthy traitor*
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Aug 7, 2014 08:34
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:
You misunderstand. I am not here as a senator, I am here as a guard. I have been assigned here to stop anyone from trying to kill anyone else in the boundaries of the senate. While I do not waive my right to vote, I feel it would be counterproductive to my orders to start fights with overly-passionate debate.
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Aug 7, 2014 08:38
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A So how's the new world doing? Looks like the muslims are getting in on it, and probably Britain too, but what about France?
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Aug 7, 2014 08:59
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Can we please stop losing to vastly inferior armies? We're losing THOUSANDS of men in these battles we're not winning, EVEN FROM PEASANTS!
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Aug 7, 2014 09:12
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| # ? Jun 2, 2024 18:32 |
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##Vote B Power to the people!
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Aug 7, 2014 09:14
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