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manyleeks posted:Compare this to (what I have seen so far) of Mass Effect 3. Shepard is well-recognised as a war hero, and while I'm assuming Lt. Danger is making the combat look easier than it actually is, it's pretty clear that Shepard is in their element. It's kind of interesting that despite their puissance as a soldier, the circumstances driving the plot are almost totally external to the character. A couple of posts earlier, someone described the action so far as, well, kind of dicking around with no clear goal. How good Shepard is at killing things has no tangible bearing on the plot, and it lessens the storytelling pretty considerably, at least from my perspective. Regardless, Shepard's efforts in ME3 very much do matter, both for the resolution of the overarching plot and for smaller-scale issues and themes running throughout the series. It's just that, arguably, less depends purely on Shepard putting a bullet into someone or something than it did in ME1 and ME2. quote:In short, from what I've seen of the game so far, there's just not much scope for the characters to actually do anything to avert their fate. EDIT: I apologise for relegating your post to the unnoticed bottom of the previous page, so to make up: Arglebargle III posted:It's totally unfair to criticize Mass Effect for being BioWare RPG Epic #6. Criticize BioWare all you want for that, but ME is ME. There was a huge audience of new adopters for the XBOX 360 console generation, and aside from KOTOR everything on that list is small potatoes compared to Mass Effect. And I defy you to find anyone who played Jade Empire. Are you going to criticize Rembrandt for painting all those drat faces? Or Michaelangelo for not branching out from all those muscly forms? Sombrerotron fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Aug 10, 2014 |
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Aug 10, 2014 19:49
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Wow sombrerotron way to post at exactly the same time as me and ruin my post for the new page. The Crucible is an intentional choice and a last resort. In a perfect world Leviathan would have been an ME2 DLC
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Aug 10, 2014 19:53
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Waltzing Along posted:Also, why is Javik African? Because they wanted to mark him out as different than the Amero-British accented characters that we've run into before.
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Aug 10, 2014 19:59
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Fair point on ME being a general sci-fi homage - I suppose I see that as a series-wide thing, but ME1 definitely carves out its own particular niche on that one. But in terms of writing, I don't think there's enough there to mark it out as best in the series - a lot is interchangeable with any of Bioware's other RPGs. Virmire onwards is solid but there's not much great about Czerka Corp. dicking around with colonists on Feros again.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:02
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Lt. Danger posted:Fair point on ME being a general sci-fi homage - I suppose I see that as a series-wide thing, but ME1 definitely carves out its own particular niche on that one. But in terms of writing, I don't think there's enough there to mark it out as best in the series - a lot is interchangeable with any of Bioware's other RPGs. Virmire onwards is solid but there's not much great about Czerka Corp. dicking around with colonists on Feros again.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:25
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I guess no one commenting on the stupidity of Cerberus in From Ashes is a tacit agreement that the writing is, in fact, bad.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:29
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Zeroisanumber posted:Because they wanted to mark him out as different than the Amero-British accented characters that we've run into before. It does help that the oldest human civilizations existed in Africa, and I mean real civilizations. There have been genuine empires of significant size and power in Africa but we know very little about them because the Africans weren't big on keeping written records so all we have are the oral histories recorded in songs and chants. It's actually rather subtle and clever, many things in Mass Effect are despite the primary storyline being about as subtle as being hit by a star. Waltzing Along posted:I guess no one commenting on the stupidity of Cerberus in From Ashes is a tacit agreement that the writing is, in fact, bad. Is anything to do with Cerberus ever written well? Cerberus are the most consistantly poorly written part of Mass Effect; even back in the first one they were incredibly stupid.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:31
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Yes but for every throwaway like that there's a Rachni Wars or a Shadow Broker that's going to keep paying off down into Mass Effect 3. Sure, Lava Planet doesn't achieve any great narrative accomplishments, but you do rescue a blue space babe from evil robots inside an exploding volcano. Surely that's worth something. Feros had some interesting concepts and mostly fumbled them. The only things that really worked were the skyway and the decision to kill the Asari commando. The Thorian was a neat idea but never amounted to anything, and his level being such a slog didn't do him any favors. The Geth worshiping was another interesting idea that gets fumbled and turned into a tell-don't-show thing in Mass Effect 2. To its credit I think Feros is the only mandatory section that you can point to and say that it doesn't really work. I'd say Mass Effect 2 also has only one mandatory section that doesn't really work, and ME3 has more than one. Mass Effect's third act is really, really good though, good enough that it deserves to be separated out from "BioWare RPGs." KOTOR's third act is stodgy crap in comparison, and who knows what Jade Empire's third act was like? No really, I don't know anyone who made it to Jade Empire's third act.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:32
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Waltzing Along posted:I guess no one commenting on the stupidity of Cerberus in From Ashes is a tacit agreement that the writing is, in fact, bad. I was actually going to comment on how Cerberus was comically evil and hilariously incompetent in ME, and that ME2 and ME3 did us a service by rehabilitating them, but then I thought... no.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:37
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Arglebargle III posted:who knows what Jade Empire's third act was like? No really, I don't know anyone who made it to Jade Empire's third act. I did. It was alright. It was easily the shortest part of the game as well. Also, getting that golem form at the end of Act 2 made the rest of the game stupidly easy.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:39
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From Ashes would have made more sense if: Cerberus had taken control of a number of pods. They are killing the Protheans because they can't open the pods properly. You have to infiltrate and are able to open the last pod because Shepard has the cypher. Wandering around a compound and finding the key codes in Alliance computers is moronic. I like Javik, mind you. I just think this whole thing is stupid.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:43
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I beat the end boss in Jade Empire by having a thing equipped that hurt an enemy whenever they hit you, and he basically punched me until he died.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:49
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quote:As Argle said, insisting ME3 be taken on it's own merits on one hand and taking ME1 as a set with every other Bioware game on the other hand seems unfair. When I moan about people not taking ME3 on its own merits, it's largely a call for people to analyse what's in the game, not what they'd imagined it to be in all the pre-release hype. Yet again a topic to be covered in, uh, two videos' time? Waltzing Along posted:I guess no one commenting on the stupidity of Cerberus in From Ashes is a tacit agreement that the writing is, in fact, bad. Agreed. And why doesn't Cerberus just shoot down Shepard's shuttle while they're at it? Lame.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:52
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Lt. Danger posted:Agreed. And why doesn't Cerberus just shoot down Shepard's shuttle while they're at it? Lame. Yep. That would make a much more exciting start to the mission. You get shot down. Then have to fight your way to and infiltrate the base. And then fight your way out on a hijacked Atlas with a groggy Javik stumbling along behind, held up by your two squadmates. It's not really hard to improve the writing in ME3. You just have to think for a moment.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:56
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One thing I've noticed in your vids is you shoot the turrets on the side, rather than the barrel. Doesn't it do more damage if you hit the barrel?
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Aug 10, 2014 20:57
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ME3 should be written my way
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Aug 10, 2014 20:59
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Double post because editing is only for losers who like ME3
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Aug 10, 2014 20:59
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I'm actually a terrible shot. e: and I don't think turrets even have weakspots
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Aug 10, 2014 21:01
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Lt. Danger posted:I'm actually a terrible shot. You seem fine to me, but I've only got myself as a reference. I see a lot of headshots and it looks like you are playing on Insanity, too. It's just the turret shots that I always wonder if I was just stupidly upping the difficulty for myself by aiming for the barrel.
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Aug 10, 2014 21:02
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From Ashes is undeniably weird. Javik's interactions with the rest of the game are weird, the level's execution is weird, his lack of impact on the story is weird. DLC characters are always weird, cut content DLC characters are weirder I guess. I like Javik though. The level is an obvious slapdash job. Cerberus isn't an obvious enemy type for this outing. Collectors would have been cool although I guess we canonically blew them all up? When has that every stopped anyone from bringing back an enemy? The whole level is reused Mass Effect 2 assets. Might explain why they didn't bring back the Collectors because they would have recreated Horizon. If I'm not mistaken the enemies just spawn inside/behind buildings too. Very rushed stuff. If they'd had time I bet we would have gone spelunking in a Prothean tomb and had an encounter that made a lot more sense both in terms of encounter design and the overall story. I thought the African accent was a nice subversion of the rule that the Old Lofty Imperial High Ancient Imperial Empire always have British accents, but the connection to ancient history works too. I hadn't thought of that before seeing it in this thread. Lt. Danger posted:Agreed. And why doesn't Cerberus just shoot down Shepard's shuttle while they're at it? Lame. Waltzing's may be approaching the question from the wrong direction, but he's right that the level doesn't make any sense. They probably should have rebuilt it from the ground up after the decision was made to cut Javik; not sure why they decided it was ready for release with the base game. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Aug 10, 2014 |
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Aug 10, 2014 21:06
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Jade Empire is the best post-BG2 Bioware game and I will White Demon Bitchslap anyone who disagrees.
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Aug 10, 2014 21:43
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On a different topic: while it is true that BioWare has traditionally opted for an ancient evil/secret (perhaps not quite ancient in the case of the BG games, but still), I'd posit that it's primarily a convenient device. It provides the initial raison d'etre for the PC, and adds a basic structure to the game. That does not mean this world-threatening evil is what the game is ultimately about in any other than a causal sense. I believe the true focus of most of BioWare's RPGs is on choice, especially within the context of betrayal and redemption. Consider the BG series, and how it asks the PC again and again: do you want to embrace your divine heritage? Considering that the PC's a child of the god of murder (now dead), it's unsurprising that this question is strongly tied in with a rather black-and-white good/evil dichotomy; do you obey your blood and choose evil, or do you reject its imperative and choose good? There's something subversive about betraying yourself/your parents by becoming a force for good, but never mind that. In the end, the question is more far-reaching, more fundamental, than a mere choice between good and evil. Your final action in Throne of Bhaal isn't doing the "right" thing or the "wrong" thing, it's deciding whether you definitively accept your divinity and ascend to godhood, or reject it and remain a mortal. What's great about this, I think, is that rejecting godhood is like refusing to play along any further with the inescapable RPG mechanic of striving to become ever more powerful. Choosing godhood is also the logical thing to do within the context of the plot - it's what the entire series, and Throne of Bhaal especially, has been preparing you for. Being permitted to throw it all away, then, has meaning. It's really up to the PC how their story ends. In the NWN OC, the PC is just a random adventurer. The PC is presented with the usual moral choices, but how the PC develops morally isn't really the point. What is important is what certain other NPCs do, most notably Fenthick and Aribeth. Fenthick's a good person, but very naive, and he unwittingly supports a scheme to spread a magical plague in Neverwinter, convinced that he is actually helping to combat the plague. When that plot is revealed, Fenthick is crushed by his realisation that he and Neverwinter have been betrayed. Fenthick accepts responsibility for this, and is executed by Neverwinter. Aribeth was Fenthick's lover, and although she's a paladin of Tyr and therefore should be super-ultra-good, she cannot come to terms with what she considers to be a gross injustice. Aribeth eventually turns against Neverwinter, leading an evil army determined to lay waste to the city in order to get to (of course) an ancient artifact hidden within it. The PC confronts Aribeth, and defeats her in single combat, after which she is taken prisoner. It is then that Aribeth, through the PC and depending in part on how the PC has interacted with her earlier in the game, can be redeemed. Although she will have to face the consequences of her actions regardless, the question remains whether she will do so willingly and with contrition - i.e. like Fenthick did. Here, it's all about accepting or rejecting the rule of law and accountability. Then there's KotOR, which combines elements from the BG games and the NWN OC. First off, there's the fact that the Jedi tried to completely erase Revan's memory and personality, and implant a different one. That raises some difficult moral questions, but in practical terms, it means that the PC must decide: who do they want to be? Darth Revan, or the heroic Revan who (supposedly) existed before? Of course, it may well be argued that the PC actually can't choose and is simply "good" or "evil", either because the Jedi succeeded or failed to adequately implant a new personality. Regardless, the issue at hand is about decided who you want to be. Secondly, Bastila undergoes a transformation that's very similar to Aribeth's. Although Bastila's fall is not related to any specific event, the fact is that Bastila also turns into a champion for the PC's enemy, that the PC will confront her, and that she can be redeemed through the PC. Juhani, of course, is another character who has fallen to the Dark Side, but can return to the Light via the PC. And then there's Jolee Bindo, whose on-ship banter concerns matters of destiny (i.e. the elimination of choice) and accountability. Again, we see the themes of betrayal, redemption, accountability, and the underlying choices - or the illusion thereof. These themes return in Dragon Age once again. DA contains lots of little betrayal-and-redemption stories, but they are embodied most of all by Loghain: a noble defender of Ferelden, who betrays his king and the Grey Wardens in the belief that that's best for Ferelden, turns into a tyrant, but is eventually defeated and (depending on the PC's actions) given the opportunity to join the Grey Wardens and combat the Blight in lieu of "punishment". On the other hand, DA's treatment of choice is notably different from previous BioWare games. Whereas the basic message of the aforementioned titles is "you always have a choice", DA's basic message appears to be "you don't always have a choice, and having a choice at all is not necessarily best". For example, mages cannot help being mages, but must suffer the Chantry's dominion over (or persecution of) them for their nature. Social mobility for non-surface dwarves is almost non-existent, and the lowest-caste dwarves must forever suffer for their ancestors' crimes. Becoming a Grey Warden either means instant death or an accelerated death through darkspawn corruption, but there must be Grey Wardens to defeat the Blight. And then Sten will argue that the freedom to choose who one wants to be is detrimental to both individual and society. Even so, the question of personal choice is central to the game. Oh, and let's not forget Saren and TIM at the end of ME3, if we're talking betrayal and redemption. You might argue that it's all underdeveloped, simplistic, repeating itself, predicated too much on conservative ideas of good and evil, and you may be right. Even so, I'd say it's a mistake to look at BioWare games and define them primarily by overall plot and game structure. These games generally don't really make a point about the source of evil or how to defeat it (the ME series excepted, perhaps, if you agree with Lt. Danger's assessment), but they consistently do try to say something about the choices individuals make and how they respond to the consequences.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:04
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anilEhilated posted:Jade Empire is the best post-BG2 Bioware game and I will White Demon Bitchslap anyone who disagrees. This x2, Jade Empire is an excellent game with no significant flaws to note and a genuinely well written and interesting story in which the characters don't act like retarded infants the moment a cutscene camera switches on and the one time you are defeated in a cutscene it is totally legit. The fact that it is so unknown despite straight up being one of the best RPGs Bioware have ever made and the best they have ever made using modern 3D graphics is super sad. I might even go so far as to say that Jade Empire is the best story Bioware have ever written; the Baldurs Gate stories are more expansive and complex but Jade Empire's story is by no means simple and it is incredibly tight and well written. Neruz fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Aug 10, 2014 |
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Aug 10, 2014 22:09
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SirSamVimes posted:Edit: The scene at the end of the video is a perfect example of how Liara has improved as a character from the first game. Back in Mass Effect 1, it felt like her only real character trait was her naivety and getting swept up in things. It wasn't until the second game that she started to get depth in her hunt for the Shadow Broker, and I wouldn't say she is an outright good character until the Shadow Broker DLC. Since most of the stuff I'd want to say in regards to Javik and his "recruitment" mission have already been said (and I probably shouldn't write three paragraphs drooling over the Particle Rifle), I'd like to reiterate this point. That scene was probably one of the better ones in the whole game, showing Liara's development as a character. She has, using her own resources and archaeological knowledge, taken the initiative to guarantee some sort of hope for the next cycle, so that even if they fail here they'll be able to make some difference in breaking it. I'd also say that her showing it to Shepard is more than just making sure the player knows about it, it's showing how close she is to Shep and how much she values Shep's judgement, if not as a LI then at least as a close friend. I'd say she's come quite far from the naive little alien girl rescued back in ME1, and that scene is what cements it. Then again maybe I'm just a bit biased and overplaying its significance in the grand scheme of things. Ah well. 
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Aug 10, 2014 22:14
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An alternative playthrough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2jBep8NKvA heavily trends towards Accentuate The Negative, but they substantuate their complaints. For people who are disappointed with the ME series. It's quite ... satisfying to hear the games get nitpicked to hell and back. edit: whooops. That's the second episode, here's the first one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quiGpSh02yA So those who want a more critical playthough, here's for you and now the OP can have a little more breathing room.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:18
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Feel free to drool over the particle rifle StrifeHira, it is so much better than all the other assault rifle options that it is basically in a league all of its own. Ironically this actually makes sense since by all accounts the Protheans had significantly more advanced weapons technology and a larger industrial base than any of the current galactic powers so their weapons being just straight up superior to normal weapons is actually justifiable! Even if it is kind of a lovely move from a gameplay perspective. e: Heyy there Spoiler Warning! Yeah if you want to hear people tear the poo poo out of the Mass Effect series the Spoiler Warning crew will be right up your alley.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:21
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StrifeHira posted:Since most of the stuff I'd want to say in regards to Javik and his "recruitment" mission have already been said (and I probably shouldn't write three paragraphs drooling over the Particle Rifle), I'd like to reiterate this point. That scene was probably one of the better ones in the whole game, showing Liara's development as a character. She has, using her own resources and archaeological knowledge, taken the initiative to guarantee some sort of hope for the next cycle, so that even if they fail here they'll be able to make some difference in breaking it.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:24
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I think it is kind of tacky to post someone elses vids in a LP.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:25
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Waltzing Along posted:I think it is kind of tacky to post someone elses vids in a LP. I feel like a lot of the comments are <<why aren't you LPing this the way I want you to>> so I just want to toss that link their way so that it might stop. no tackiness meant.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:30
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Sombrerotron posted:I believe the true focus of most of BioWare's RPGs is on choice, especially within the context of betrayal and redemption. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEwsfZbO7KU Even Mass Effect as well! quote:I feel like a lot of the comments are <<why aren't you LPing this the way I want you to>> so I just want to toss that link their way so that it might stop. no tackiness meant. Nah, it's cool. I know I'm kinda mean to people in this thread but I actually really like arguing with people. Appreciate the thought though.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:32
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double nine posted:I feel like a lot of the comments are <<why aren't you LPing this the way I want you to>> so I just want to toss that link their way so that it might stop. no tackiness meant. There is a difference between advertising a different LP and debating the LP itself. This LP is about why ME3 is a good game. This is contentious. Hence the debate.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:43
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Lt. Danger posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEwsfZbO7KU
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Aug 10, 2014 23:03
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Sombrerotron posted:Well yes, but that trailer seems to emphasise the moral dilemma. I feel it's more about the personal aspects of choices than the morality or physical effects of those choices. In that sense, the ME series' Paragon/Renegade system is perhaps the best example of this kind of "who do you want to be?" philosophy in BioWare's games, encouraging players to shape Shepard's character as they see fit and be less concerned about traditional good vs. evil roleplaying or good vs. bad results. idk, renegade shep sure seems to love their cold, merciless executions of people that are unarmed and have surrendered. I mean, most of them aren't nice people, but still.
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Aug 10, 2014 23:08
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FoolyCharged posted:idk, renegade shep sure seems to love their cold, merciless executions of people that are unarmed and have surrendered. I mean, most of them aren't nice people, but still.
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Aug 10, 2014 23:17
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Renegade Shepard is all about taking minimum possible risks and maximising effectiveness, so it makes sense that they are unwilling to take the risk that sparing an enemy's life might bite them in the rear end later. Paragon Shepard on the other hand has hope that by sparing their enemies said enemies may become allies down the line.
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Aug 10, 2014 23:43
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Hey I have an alternative explanation for the kid holding the ship at the opening. The kid the catalyst. The kid is playing with a ship, a toy for children. Then the real ship flies over. The real ship is a toy, the game is a puppet play by and for the benefit of the Catalyst. The plot of Mass Effect 3 now makes perfect sense. Shepard exists only as an adjunct to the Catalyst, the player is playing the Catalyst's game, and is only allowed to play around the edges because it's not the player's game. In the end, the Catalyst lets the player play. The option for the player to reject Mass Effect 3 and stop playing was only added after a huge backlash. Casey Hudson is the Catalyst. Okay, I reinstalled this game and I'm at the part where you have to chase the kid in slow-motion. It's excruciating. Why did you leave this out Lt. Danger? Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Aug 11, 2014 |
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Aug 11, 2014 06:37
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Neruz posted:This x2, Jade Empire is an excellent game with no significant flaws to note and a genuinely well written and interesting story in which the characters don't act like retarded infants the moment a cutscene camera switches on and the one time you are defeated in a cutscene it is totally legit. The fact that it is so unknown despite straight up being one of the best RPGs Bioware have ever made and the best they have ever made using modern 3D graphics is super sad. Jade Empire's only flaw is that its enemy AI is kind of boring. Not even that it's combat is boring, because it has a fantastic set of combat mechanics, but that the enemies don't live up to the same standards. It's easily one of the best games Bioware has put out.
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Aug 11, 2014 10:44
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Red Bones posted:Jade Empire's only flaw is that its enemy AI is kind of boring. Not even that it's combat is boring, because it has a fantastic set of combat mechanics, but that the enemies don't live up to the same standards. It's easily one of the best games Bioware has put out. That and they kinda gave up on a sprawling storyline midway through and made the game a bit more linear. I probably wouldn't have minded flying around to another village and such.
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Aug 11, 2014 15:43
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Might be a bit late to bring this up, but I felt like Mordin becoming consumed by guilt and looking to undo his questionable legacy was a natural progression for his character.
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Aug 11, 2014 15:51
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Cryohazard posted:Might be a bit late to bring this up, but I felt like Mordin becoming consumed by guilt and looking to undo his questionable legacy was a natural progression for his character. I agree.
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Aug 11, 2014 16:42
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